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post #151 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
True, but ripped to my server with a backup on the server as well as on a small 2 HDD NAS I take to GTGs, and not touching the physical media, I'm a few steps away from losing material.

Plus as I said above EAC does a really excellent job of repairing most marks on CDs.

What is an EAC?

Given that I've played with this stuff on a daily basis for 60 years, I'm not too upset that I've had three incidents over the years including just the other day pulling the right hot (red) connector off of the cart wire of this new table while changing carts. Then another expensive incident with a feather duster versus a Lyra cart after my house keeper was told repeatedly to stay away from the audio equipment in the house, and then me dropping the hold down clamp, but that was 30 years or so ago. There might be a few others that I can no longer remember.

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post #152 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 06:55 AM
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This is a great question and I appreciate it being asked and debated here.
My favorite answer hasn't been written yet, so I'm taking the time now.
Because records are all about the music.
It's the main event. iPods and smartphones are way easier to stream music from. DVD and bluray have higher quality sound. However, they take away from the music itself. You don't get lost in the sound of your iPhone streaming music while you are likely doing other things. For me, I love dancing with my kids to old Boston records, beach boys, and cranking it up to Dave Mathews and Metallica to play air guitar. Records, for me, help me focus on every note. It's so easy to be doing five other things with most digital music, it just keeps streaming. Records require more thought and deliberate action. They are more of a pain in the ass and that's great because they keep you focused on enjoying them while they spin


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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I don't understand why people still use vinyl records, I dumped my turn table like over 20 years ago already. Any reason why people still using this other than nostalgic? I gave my collection away long time ago, my stepson still have some of mine. He just keeping them as he does not even have a turn table either.

I had a chance to hear some years back, it sounded flat, did not have the dynamics of the CD. It seemed a little smoother than CD. But all in all, I take CD and DVD any time of the day.

Another thing is the record wears out also. I remember I had to buy the third Jimmy Hendrix "Band of Gypsy" as I worn two out. I had a good Dual turn table at the time, so it's not as if the needle was so heavy that it destroyed the grooves. They only last so many times.
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post #153 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
What is an EAC?

Exact Audio Copy, well-known free software that's been around for a long time and still probably the favorite CD "ripping" (i.e., copying) software out there. Many tutorial/setup guides out there throughout the years.

Since you only recently became aware of the fact that CDs can be copied and have been for at least 20-25 years (still pretty shocked by this, quite frankly. ), I'm not surprised by your lack of familiarity with the software.

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post #154 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
Exact Audio Copy, well-known free software that's been around for a long time and still probably the favorite CD "ripping" (i.e., copying) software out there. Many tutorial/setup guides out there throughout the years.

Since you only recently became aware of the fact that CDs can be copied and have been for at least 20-25 years (still pretty shocked by this, quite frankly. ), I'm not surprised by your lack of familiarity with the software.


Thanks. Glad to know about this.

As I've said, I bought CDs mostly for use where the LPs can't be used such as in the car so I duplicated my LP collection this way. I don't believe I've ever tried to copy one. Or maybe I did copy at one time, but the memory of it has faded. I'm just now for the first time using a flash drive for in the car because the new car no longer has a CD player. I'm pretty good around the analog side of things and decently computer literate and have been since the 70s, but a complete newb in re HT and hit and misses concerning digital, mostly misses.
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post #155 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 07:58 AM
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I have said this on the other few hundred threads that ask this question. I do have some records that DO sound better than their CD counterpart.

Why?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

The older masters with full dynamic range on the LP sounds better than the compressed version on CD.
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post #156 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 08:21 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TornadoTJ View Post
The older masters with full dynamic range on the LP sounds better than the compressed version on CD.
That has nothing to do with the media. CD has far more available dynamic range than LP. Not using it is a decision made by the producer. For that matter the mastering media that pre-dated digital, be it direct to disc or tape, had far less dynamic range than even the earliest PCM decks. Less than Betamax, for that matter.

I bet if one searched hard enough they could find similar complaints circa 1955 about how much better 78s sounded than those newfangled 33 1/3 LPs. A hundred years ago you could probably find fans of cylinders bemoaning their demise.
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post #157 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
That has nothing to do with the media. CD has far more available dynamic range than LP. Not using it is a decision made by the producer. For that matter the mastering media that pre-dated digital, be it direct to disc or tape, had far less dynamic range than even the earliest PCM decks. Less than Betamax, for that matter.

I bet if one searched hard enough they could find similar complaints circa 1955 about how much better 78s sounded than those newfangled 33 1/3 LPs. A hundred years ago you could probably find fans of cylinders bemoaning their demise.
The final result is only as good as the master. Compress the master and you get a compressed CD, no matter how much dynamic range the CD has.

Please read the link I provided. Loundness Wars is a real thing, and it IS affecting the final result on CDs.
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post #158 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 08:30 AM
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I'm torn on this question and felt I needed to add my 2 cents.

The technical side of me says:

For true analog the system has to be analog end to end (Instruments/Studio Equipment/Home Equipment/etc) once it goes through a DAC what's the point really? If you want to hear an analog source any conversions to digital and back to analog again really don't make sense to me. Sure you can still get a high quality source but you're better off getting some master audio that's well engineered (N.B. not saying that source can't be vinyl)

If you're in pursuit of high fidelity/high resolution audio thats well engineered, both systems are expensive regardless of medium (digital or analog). The audio engineers that are actually giving quality sound deserve the credit since it starts there. If you have a bad source (could be on vinyl/tape/CD/SACD/DVD-A/DVD/Bluray any medium) you will not get the desired result.

Back to the true analog point, I don't think that many new records are being released where sound hasn't passed through a DAC. If its the only source available for that music, it's ok, if it has a better quality digital release, I think that makes more sense.

All I want is my music to be at the best reproduction as possible regardless of medium.

The emotional side of me says:

Vinyl has a feeling and a sound that's very hard to reproduce. It's back to the same issue we have with subwoofers - reference over preference, some like it loud, regardless of reproducing it accurately. With Vinyl, some like the influence of the needle, the grove, the equipment etc.

Vinyl records make you part of the process. Now with digital music, we get bored easily, we skip tracks before they finish and don't allow things to play through due to track abundance and accessibility. When you get to put a record on, drop the needle, take in the process of playing a track, we get to be part of the system again.

Digital equipment can be beautiful, but mechanical things are something to see. Watching a record spin, a mechanical needle work, its a thing of beauty.

It's hard to put a value on nostalgia. If the vinyl feeling makes you think to your past and you enjoy that, that's something hard to argue.
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post #159 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Thanks. Glad to know about this.

As I've said, I bought CDs mostly for use where the LPs can't be used such as in the car so I duplicated my LP collection this way. I don't believe I've ever tried to copy one. Or maybe I did copy at one time, but the memory of it has faded. I'm just now for the first time using a flash drive for in the car because the new car no longer has a CD player. I'm pretty good around the analog side of things and decently computer literate and have been since the 70s, but a complete newb in re HT and hit and misses concerning digital, mostly misses.
I've used EAC before, it was kind of a pain. But that was years ago and my irritations with it might have been unique to my PC circumstances at the time.

Eventually I invested in dBPoweramp software, maybe the most popular pay-for CD copying software. Doesn't cost much and it requires less initial configuration vs EAC and dBPoweramp has several more nice features. So I'd recommend it for you if you plan on eventually moving more of your CDs over to your flash drive use. But there are a few other programs out there which achieve the same results and probably for less.

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post #160 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by bizzybody View Post
What's been done to many reissues in recent years on CD is normalizing the volume of tracks to make them evenly loud. They sound horrible, especially when there is supposed to be some large volume differences in a song.
This. Both new releases and reissues alike. Not always or even typically "horrible". But certainly less than they could and should have been.

Very frustrating though when you get a remaster which benefits from a better master or mix and improved technology, but then heavy-handed normalization gets applied, negating some of that goodness. So you're often left with a Sophie's musical Choice between better dynamics coupled with lesser source material and transfer technique of the original CD version vs. much worse dynamics coupled with better source material and transfer technique.

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post #161 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
I've used EAC before, it was kind of a pain. But that was years ago and my irritations with it might have been unique to my PC circumstances at the time.

Eventually I invested in dBPoweramp software, maybe the most popular pay-for CD copying software. Doesn't cost much and it requires less initial configuration vs EAC and dBPoweramp has several more nice features. So I'd recommend it for you if you plan on eventually moving more of your CDs over to your flash drive use. But there are a few other programs out there which achieve the same results and probably for less.

Yes, definitely. The car has a very nice audio system in it and this old road warrior would very much like to do that. I'm still working and doing deals so I want as many of my tunes with me as possible. Could be Beethoven Septet in E Flat Major (playing now, London Blueback, circa 1960) one minute and deadmau5 the next.

I'm not so interested in digitizing my LPs that I don't have on CD because the time it takes at a 1 to 1 speed. Maybe I should rethink that as I have some truly gorgeous stuff that is not available on CD or any type of download.
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post #162 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by shrabok View Post
I'm torn on this question and felt I needed to add my 2 cents.

The technical side of me says:

For true analog the system has to be analog end to end (Instruments/Studio Equipment/Home Equipment/etc) once it goes through a DAC what's the point really? If you want to hear an analog source any conversions to digital and back to analog again really don't make sense to me. Sure you can still get a high quality source but you're better off getting some master audio that's well engineered (N.B. not saying that source can't be vinyl)

If you're in pursuit of high fidelity/high resolution audio thats well engineered, both systems are expensive regardless of medium (digital or analog). The audio engineers that are actually giving quality sound deserve the credit since it starts there. If you have a bad source (could be on vinyl/tape/CD/SACD/DVD-A/DVD/Bluray any medium) you will not get the desired result.

Back to the true analog point, I don't think that many new records are being released where sound hasn't passed through a DAC. If its the only source available for that music, it's ok, if it has a better quality digital release, I think that makes more sense.

All I want is my music to be at the best reproduction as possible regardless of medium.

The emotional side of me says:

Vinyl has a feeling and a sound thats very hard to reproduce. It's back to the same issue we have with subwoofers - reference over preference, some like it loud, regardless of reproducing it accurately. With Vinyl, some like the influence of the needle, the grove, the equipment etc.

Vinyl records make you part of the process. Now with digital music, we get bored easily, we skip tracks before they finish and don't allow things to play though due to track abundance and accessibility. When you get to put a record on, drop the needle, take in the process of playing a track, we get to be part of the system again.

Digital equipment can be beautiful, but mechanical things are something to see. Watching a record spin, a mechanical needle work, its a thing of beauty.

It's hard to put a value on nostalgia. If the vinyl feeling makes you think to your past and you enjoy that, that's something hard to argue.

"Vinyl has a feeling and a sound thats very hard to reproduce"

As is the case right now as I'm playing this perfect condition 1960 London Blueback of Beethoven. What is it with the delicacy, sweetness and beauty of the strings in this 57 year old recording that 'they' struggle with so much now? How is it that this recording is so quiet? And this is up here on my new $299 cheap table, using the cheapest $329 Yamaha AS301 integrated and my $277 Elac B6s. Right here, right now, exists my reason for vinyl and analog. I'm trying to get some things done (including posting on AVS) and this keeps drawing me into the music.
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post #163 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 10:06 AM
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Well having just brought a Denon DP-300F to get myself started back into vinyl. I would say it's because it is vinyl. The way vinyl compresses is its appeal much in the same way tubes can add something to the sound.

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post #164 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 11:14 AM
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Do y'all vinyl guys feel that a properly digitized LP would sound any different than the LP itself? Anyone ever do any blind tests; digitized vinyl vs. actual vinyl? Be interesting, despite my preconceptions that there would be no audible difference.
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post #165 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post
There's a nifty feature that some websites have called the "Search" function. Often represented visually by a magnifying glass. This forum just so happens to have this function and it can really come in handy!

Seriously though, any of the below threads (and many more here) can give you all of the reasons as to why some have never stopped playing vinyl and why some people only recently have decided to get into vinyl.

Some do it for (often myth-driven) bad reasons, while some do it for good reasons. Or a mix of both.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-...nd-better.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-...ting-into.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-aud...ing-vinyl.html

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2-...i-missing.html
This reminds me of another thing - a forum modder misbelief, which no one has ever explained, because there's no reason - posting in old threads: NECROPOSTING! I was actually banned with my first post to the vegetarian website for updating an old list of 'animal-friendly' shoes, rather than start a new thread! Those people are weird though - being vegan and cyberbullying was obviously the only 2 things the modder had control of.

Regarding vinyl - only yesterday I was researching music on (the sadly unknown website, which barely shows on Google) www.discogs.com. Users were complaining about the poor 'pressings' of the recent vinyl albums of Kate Bush. All of them seemingly oblivious to CDs.

I gave my vinyl to the dogs' charity, like the OP, but I'm much more anti than him/her! I wouldn't even have conceded the "smoother" sound nonsense! That's just the sound being clear and not muffled. If you want all the artefacts of vinyl's terrible sound reproduction then that can all be added to a CD to sound muffled and hollow too.

I don't know how good these people think the human ear is, but it's not going to be able to hear the digital encoding!

...Now I'm off to bash the headphone weirdos who think they can hear dog-whistle frequencies and submarine sonar from out at sea, because many of the 'best cans' have ranges beyond human hearing ranges. Personally, I've got so much tinnitus that I mostly just hear BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE......(there is no P, it is continuous)......

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post #166 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 12:12 PM
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I'm a long time audiophile (which is like admitting you are a "foodie"...and I'm one of those too!).

I have been exposed to fantastic turntable based systems and digital systems for many decades and I never bought the "vinyl sounds better" claim.
(Or that vinyl is more accurate, a doubly dubious claim).

I've never had a problem getting digital to sound gorgeous and it's been my main source since the late 90's.

Still, I've also appreciated vinyl because vinyl can sound different, and in some ways and some instances more appealing. (With many caveats, not on every recording, not on every record, not on every system, etc...). To my ears, comparing some turntable sources with digital on the same system, the vinyl can have a bit more of a "free-floating" aspect, where it seems less locked into the speakers. I've seen technical descriptions of why this might be so (which amount to a form of distortion, not accuracy), but however it gets there, I like it. Further, sometimes there is a more "organic" quality, believable timbral quality (especially woodwinds) and a less hard quality (though sometimes vinyl can sound harder!). So sometimes I can enjoy the vinyl source more than the digital. But overall, I'm very happy with digital.

A couple years ago I added a turntable to my system again for several reasons. 1. A decent turntable was given to my free by my father-in-law. 2. I still had tons of records stored away. 3. I enjoy the tactile nature and artwork of LPs. 4. There's a great nostolgiac satisfaction to doing vinyl again, even finding records in vinyl stores. 5. I often enjoy the difference in sound from my digital rig. Vinyl is a nice place to visit now and again.


6. There is, as many say, a different aspect to using vinyl vs digital. I'd burned all my CDs onto external drives, and I also download quite a lot of music, and stream. And of course I can stream all this to my high end audio rig. This is of course extremely convenient. But sometimes it's almost *too* convenient. By that I mean, when you know you have instantaneous access to thousands and thousands of songs, it can be too easy to skip around searching for just the right one you want. And there can even be a bit of impatience with listening to one song as you know there are so many others at your fingertips to move on to. So I tend to skip around my music collection more, and with less patience for anything that isn't "just" what I want at that moment. Whereas with vinyl, there is a ritual/tactile pleasure (if you like it) to pulling out the record and playing it. And a certain level of commitment is involved. Skipping around songs, or between albums is nowhere near the instantaneous experience and so I'm willing to sit and keep listening to the next song on the record. And this is after all how I, like most of us who grew up with vinyl, tended to get into "albums." These day you can just burn, or play or download a single song from an album. But on vinyl, you get the whole shebang. I often
didn't immediately like the song that followed my favorite, but allowing album sides to play through made those other songs become more familiar, and then they often replaced the original track as my favorite.

I recently played the whole side of Rush's Hemispheres on vinyl, and I suspect my "trigger finger" would have been much more itchy and have moved on to another song/album/genre before the end of that side, if I'd been listening to my digital collection.

And I have to say, there is something heartwarming about the resurgence of vinyl, passing vinyl shops everywhere, seeing young kids buying it etc.
Maybe it's a sort of validation, where something that was "good" to you growing up is now seen as valuable to this generation.

So, while I completely understand anyone who couldn't give a damn about vinyl, and would reject it on technical, ergonomic and other grounds, I also understand why it holds appeal for others.
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The final result is only as good as the master. Compress the master and you get a compressed CD, no matter how much dynamic range the CD has.
Compress the master and you'll get a compressed vinyl record as well. My point is that with direct to disc or tape mastering the available dynamic range wasn't more than with digital, it was less. Modern recordings and modern re-masters of old recordings that are overly compressed aren't that way because they have to be. It's because producers want them that way.
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post #168 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 01:01 PM
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But sometimes it's almost *too* convenient. By that I mean, when you know you have instantaneous access to thousands and thousands of songs, it can be too easy to skip around searching for just the right one you want. And there can even be a bit of impatience with listening to one song as you know there are so many others at your fingertips to move on to.
So true.

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post #169 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 01:18 PM
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So true.

I'm finding this out with having the flash drive in the car, that you do so much flipping around that you end up playing nothing at all.
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post #170 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by alan0354 View Post
I don't understand why people still use vinyl records, I dumped my turn table like over 20 years ago already. Any reason why people still using this other than nostalgic? I gave my collection away long time ago, my stepson still have some of mine. He just keeping them as he does not even have a turn table either.

I had a chance to hear some years back, it sounded flat, did not have the dynamics of the CD. It seemed a little smoother than CD. But all in all, I take CD and DVD any time of the day.

Another thing is the record wears out also. I remember I had to buy the third Jimmy Hendrix "Band of Gypsy" as I worn two out. I had a good Dual turn table at the time, so it's not as if the needle was so heavy that it destroyed the grooves. They only last so many times.
Much smoother sound IMHO. I have a/b a vinyl record against the same album on CD (lacks air or openness) and prefer the vinyl sound; no contest for me.

Vinyl takes more work ( I clean each new album and then preserve it with a product called Gruv Glide; removes static and improves record fidelity) but I enjoy doing that. Only take a few minutes for each step.
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post #171 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by markrubin View Post
70 years young here: I cut my teeth on turntables and trying to get the best out of its technology: my experience is in the broadcast industry and I always loved music.

then CD's came along: big step up for me (after the industry went through its learning curve as it always must do, to get the new technology right)

now I prefer HD audio (like from a BD) and Tidal streaming...go figure

from time to time, after spending too much time reading AVS and how wonderful LP's can sound on a good turntable, I revisited the technology: spent more money on a high end turntable, cartridge, new LP's: and reached the same conclusion: LP's do not come close to the newest technology now available to us

just my $.02 cents

but I still appreciate that many members still cherish their turntables and its sound, and they are welcome here
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post #172 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I'm finding this out with having the flash drive in the car, that you do so much flipping around that you end up playing nothing at all.


Self control. I have the option of over 22,000 tracks through my Apple TV 4 but I CHOOSE an album and play it with the option at any point to choose something else.

It's not rocket science and is the same self control used not to use the little cue arm to skip tracks on an LP.


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post #173 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 03:41 PM
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Some old-timers may still harken back to the first consumer model CD player from Sony that only had a single 16 bit DAC that interleaved processing of left and right tracks, producing a tiny out of synch shift between the tracks.

Subtle, how noticeable depended on the track, but always there to perhaps give a constant feeling that it wasn't quite right even if you knew nothing about the technology inside the box. I expect that a mono recording, digitized to two identical stereo tracks, would be the best demonstration of the synch error.

I was mildly amused by the bold printing on many CD players boasting of their 1 bit DAC. Instead of using a dual 16 bit DAC system to process both channels simultaneously in real time, they process (I assume) 1 bit per channel at a time and clock the DAC really fast. Or perhaps the DAC really is crunching only 1 bit at a time and interleaving but is cranked up so fast the out of synch is for all practical purposes un-measureable - or there's a small buffer (what Sony was too cheap to use) to keep the data in sync.
It's like SATA vs PATA computer storage.

If you're going to boldly boast right on the device about the tech inside the device, boast about how *good* it is instead of about the penny pinching cost cutting crap. Yugo never put big decals on their cars like THREE CYLINDER ENGINE! Run it fast enough, it's as good as a six cylinder, right?
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post #174 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 03:56 PM
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I have said this on the other few hundred threads that ask this question. I do have some records that DO sound better than their CD counterpart.

Why?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

The older masters with full dynamic range on the LP sounds better than the compressed version on CD.
It's been done to some movies. A recent horrible example was "Inception". It had that constant noise, call it "foreground music", that all but obliterated the dialog. I had to turn the volume down and turn on subtitles. Somehow that garbage won an award for sound. I suppose people who had a 5.1 channel system could crank up the center channel and turn their subwoofer off to be able to hear the dialog... but nobody should have to do so in order to hear what the actors are saying. If it was a movie I cared to see again, I'd rip it, demux the 5.1 audio, adjust the levels then put it back together.
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post #175 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Airsculpture View Post
Self control. I have the option of over 22,000 tracks through my Apple TV 4 but I CHOOSE an album and play it with the option at any point to choose something else.

It's not rocket science and is the same self control used not to use the little cue arm to skip tracks on an LP.


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That's a fairly facile view of human psychology. Reminds me of the folks who think it's insightful or helpful to tell people struggling with being overweight "It's simple, just don't eat so much!"

No, it's not exactly the same physically and hence psychologically to skip around a vinyl collection as a streamed digitized collection. From my iPad it is effortless to hop from one song to the next with a flick of a finger, or from one album to the next. Playing vinyl requires getting up and physically re-orienting the needle, and that's just if the new track I want to hear happens to be on the same side of the album. If not, it also involves stopping the album, flipping, finding the track, putting the needle down. And wheres I can switch instantaneously to any album in my digital collection, wanting to hear a song on a different album means getting up, physically going through the vinyl collection, finding it, taking the first album off, putting the new one on...

It's well known that even slight drags on ergonomics (and this is especially known in computer UI and web design) can cause different choices in people's behavior. And the difference in ergonomics in playing vinyl clearly has different effects on many people's listening behavior vs ease-of-use digital streaming systems. All this is not captured by "self control."
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post #176 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 04:47 PM
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post #177 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
That's a fairly facile view of human psychology. Reminds me of the folks who think it's insightful or helpful to tell people struggling with being overweight "It's simple, just don't eat so much!"

No, it's not exactly the same physically and hence psychologically to skip around a vinyl collection as a streamed digitized collection. From my iPad it is effortless to hop from one song to the next with a flick of a finger, or from one album to the next. Playing vinyl requires getting up and physically re-orienting the needle, and that's just if the new track I want to hear happens to be on the same side of the album. If not, it also involves stopping the album, flipping, finding the track, putting the needle down. And wheres I can switch instantaneously to any album in my digital collection, wanting to hear a song on a different album means getting up, physically going through the vinyl collection, finding it, taking the first album off, putting the new one on...

It's well known that even slight drags on ergonomics (and this is especially known in computer UI and web design) can cause different choices in people's behavior. And the difference in ergonomics in playing vinyl clearly has different effects on many people's listening behavior vs ease-of-use digital streaming systems. All this is not captured by "self control."


We'll agree to disagree although at the same time I see your point.


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post #178 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 06:51 PM
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post #179 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 06:56 PM
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Amusing quote, though Peel probably isn't too well known around these AVS parts. His musical tastes were far too idiosyncratic and interesting relative to the somewhat generic rock music tastes of the average AVS member.
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post #180 of 271 Old 11-25-2016, 07:10 PM
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Amusing quote, though Peel probably isn't too well known around these AVS parts. His musical tastes were far too idiosyncratic and interesting relative to the somewhat generic rock music tastes of the average AVS member.


And he was a scouser like myself


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