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post #61 of 97 Old 05-20-2018, 02:28 PM
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Hi everyone one,
I am so happy to find this thread. I am also in the same boat. I just bought Denon X4400h, to replace my Denon X500. I am planning to use the 500 as Amplifier with my new 4400.
My goal is to setup 7.2.4 dolby atoms.
So please excuse my limited experience, but what I understand from you guys that i can do it, since my new avr has multiple pre out channels and my old avr has also multiple channels.

My speakers setup if possible:
- 7.2 (Instead of 2 floor back surround i will mount this 2 speakers to the ceiling, which will end up with 2 hight back surround speakers)
- 2 front hight
- 2 hight middle surround

So:

1- How to connect both avrs? What kind of cables and from which pre out in the new denon to which inputs in the old denon?

2- Which channels\Speakers should i power with the old avr?

Again please accept my apologies for my lack knowledge.

Thanks
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post #62 of 97 Old 05-20-2018, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubema View Post
Hi everyone one,
I am so happy to find this thread. I am also in the same boat. I just bought Denon X4400h, to replace my Denon X500. I am planning to use the 500 as Amplifier with my new 4400.
My goal is to setup 7.2.4 dolby atoms.
So please excuse my limited experience, but what I understand from you guys that i can do it, since my new avr has multiple pre out channels and my old avr has also multiple channels.

My speakers setup if possible:
- 7.2 (Instead of 2 floor back surround i will mount this 2 speakers to the ceiling, which will end up with 2 hight back surround speakers)
- 2 front hight
- 2 hight middle surround

So:

1- How to connect both avrs? What kind of cables and from which pre out in the new denon to which inputs in the old denon?

2- Which channels\Speakers should i power with the old avr?

Again please accept my apologies for my lack knowledge.

Thanks
Ideally only the Atmos speakers should be mounted in the ceiling (ie. the Rear Surround speakers should be mounted on the floor at about 1' above ear level.

Review post 8 in the 2017 Denon AVR Owner's thread for information connecting the external amp.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post51748569
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post #63 of 97 Old 05-20-2018, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubema View Post
Hi everyone one,
I am so happy to find this thread. I am also in the same boat. I just bought Denon X4400h, to replace my Denon X500. I am planning to use the 500 as Amplifier with my new 4400.
My goal is to setup 7.2.4 dolby atoms.
So please excuse my limited experience, but what I understand from you guys that i can do it, since my new avr has multiple pre out channels and my old avr has also multiple channels.

My speakers setup if possible:
- 7.2 (Instead of 2 floor back surround i will mount this 2 speakers to the ceiling, which will end up with 2 hight back surround speakers)
- 2 front hight
- 2 hight middle surround

So:

1- How to connect both avrs? What kind of cables and from which pre out in the new denon to which inputs in the old denon?

2- Which channels\Speakers should i power with the old avr?

Again please accept my apologies for my lack knowledge.

Thanks
Ideally only the Atmos speakers should be mounted in the ceiling (ie. the Rear Surround speakers should be mounted on the floor at about 1' above ear level.

Review post 8 in the 2017 Denon AVR Owner's thread for information connecting the external amp.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-rec...l#post51748569
Thanks..
I will post my concerns in the same thread you sent me.
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post #64 of 97 Old 05-20-2018, 03:59 PM
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Atmos + zone 2 with same older receiver

To add another example to this thread, I reconfigured my system as follows:
I have a Denon X4200W which has 7 amps and can process 9 channels, 5.1.4 in my case.
That means I need to power 2 channels for 5.1.4 Atmos/DTS-X with an external amp or old receiver.
I also power zone 2 with an external amp, so need another external external amp or old receiver.
I preferred to have just one extra receiver box in my system.
One of my older receivers lying around was a circa 1999 Yamaha that has 5.1 channel multi-channel inputs.
If you use this receiver with the multi-channel inputs, the source selection is actually "multi-channel in" rather than one of the assigned input names such as CD.
There are only certain allowable speaker combinations to offload in the Denon; I am offloading the rear height speakers to the inputs labeled surround left and right on the Yamaha (no need to make any particular input and output names match but just for my ease of remembering).
The zone 2 output from the Denon is input to the inputs labeled front left and right on the Yamaha.
The corresponding speaker wires for surround left and right and front left and right are then connected to the rear height speakers and the zone 2 speaker selector box, respectively.
Using the multi-channel in bypasses processing in the Yamaha. As has been mentioned, set the volume to a high level in the "amp"=old receiver, such as 80% or more, and leave it there.
Use the volume control in the Denon (and speaker calibration in the Denon). The X4200W has variable zone 2 volume out, so this works for zone 2 as well. Rather than mess with the remote control of the Yamaha, I connected it's power plug to a device that is activated by a trigger out from the Denon. Could also use a smart power strip to do the same thing. Either way, the Yamaha is always turned on by turning on the Denon. There is also no remote control confusion because the receivers are different brands (although that can be solved as discussed above).
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post #65 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 10:58 AM
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Hello,
I plan on purchasing an old but working Denon AVR 5800 for the 7 bed channels, and running the Denon x6400h for all the signals. The 6400 would power the heights only. Let me know if this will work, as a plan on picking up the 5800 tomorrow! Thanks!

Sincerely,
Daniel Maldonado
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post #66 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan30thz28 View Post
Hello,

I plan on purchasing an old but working Denon AVR 5800 for the 7 bed channels, and running the Denon x6400h for all the signals. The 6400 would power the heights only. Let me know if this will work, as a plan on picking up the 5800 tomorrow! Thanks!



Sincerely,

Daniel Maldonado


Assuming you’re wanting to power 4 height channels and the 5800 has Multi-Channel inputs, it should work.


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post #67 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweetmeat View Post
Assuming you’re wanting to power 4 height channels and the 5800 has Multi-Channel inputs, it should work.


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Sweet,
Yes 6400 would power heights 5800 would power 7 bed channels. 6400 would send signal to 5800, and control everything!

Sincerely,
Dan Maldonado
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post #68 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan30thz28 View Post
Hello,
I plan on purchasing an old but working Denon AVR 5800 for the 7 bed channels, and running the Denon x6400h for all the signals. The 6400 would power the heights only. Let me know if this will work, as a plan on picking up the 5800 tomorrow! Thanks!

Sincerely,
Daniel Maldonado
Why? Low impedance speakers? Configuration setup in a large music hall?
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post #69 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Why? Low impedance speakers? Configuration setup in a large music hall?
JD,
I can pickup the 5800 for only $400 and from everything I have heard extra power gives you headroom, and I plan on using SVS speakers which are under 90db on efficiency. So the extra power wouldn’t hurt.
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post #70 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan30thz28 View Post
JD,
I can pickup the 5800 for only $400 and from everything I have heard extra power gives you headroom, and I plan on using SVS speakers which are under 90db on efficiency. So the extra power wouldn’t hurt.
Still likely not required ... but it's your $$$ and shelf space (8.5"H and 65lbs ). Suggest trying the X6400H alone before purchasing the 5800.

Last edited by jdsmoothie; 05-21-2018 at 11:32 AM.
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post #71 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Still likely not required ... but it's your $$$ and shelf space (8.5"H and 65lbs ). Suggest trying the X6400H alone before purchasing the 5800.
JD,
Isn’t that a steal price for that AVR though? I just want to get the most power I can for the cheapest price, and that seems like the cheapest you can get for 7 channels of great amplification.

Sincerely,
Dan
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post #72 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan30thz28 View Post
JD,
Isn’t that a steal price for that AVR though? I just want to get the most power I can for the cheapest price, and that seems like the cheapest you can get for 7 channels of great amplification.

Sincerely,
Dan
There in lies the rub ... you're going from a 140W AVR (X6400H) to a 170W AVR (5800) and expecting a big difference. Not likely.
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post #73 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan30thz28 View Post
JD,
I can pickup the 5800 for only $400 and from everything I have heard extra power gives you headroom, and I plan on using SVS speakers which are under 90db on efficiency. So the extra power wouldn’t hurt.
Yeah, but how old is that receiver and how much more life is in its electrolytic capacitors? It's a beast for sure but it weighs 63 pounds just on its own and the 6400's mains are no slouches themselves. If I had $400 and wanted a better power supply I'd spend it on a brand new dedicated amp with a warranty like Emotiva's newest BasX line. The mains are the most power hungry so an A-300 would be my choice. That receiver was probably the best receiver Denon had ever made but time has caught up with it and my main concern would be maintenance but if you've got the rack space and back strength to lift it it's not like you're throwing your money away on a junk power supply in a receiver.


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post #74 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post
Why? Low impedance speakers? Configuration setup in a large music hall?


Does the 6400 have 11 amps? Just wondering why there’s a question on why Dan wants to do this. If it doesn’t power 11, then he’d have to have some external amp. If it does power 11, then isn’t it still a good idea to offload some of the channels so there’s more headroom? Just trying to understand.



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post #75 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweetmeat View Post
Does the 6400 have 11 amps? Just wondering why there’s a question on why Dan wants to do this. If it doesn’t power 11, then he’d have to have some external amp. If it does power 11, then isn’t it still a good idea to offload some of the channels so there’s more headroom? Just trying to understand.



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Yep, 11 internal amps and the mains are a mono block style. If he's using good bass mgmt. with a capable sub or sub's crossed over per THX's recommend then the surround and height channels will be getting limited content that's not so power hungry. The mains get the most workout and he's already got a receiver with beefier front L&R power amps over other Denon models. It just seems like a sideways move to me.

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post #76 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sweetmeat View Post
Does the 6400 have 11 amps? Just wondering why there’s a question on why Dan wants to do this. If it doesn’t power 11, then he’d have to have some external amp. If it does power 11, then isn’t it still a good idea to offload some of the channels so there’s more headroom? Just trying to understand.



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Not if the AVR provides more than enough headroom on it's own, no, which is why I always suggest trying the AVR on its own first before spending additional funds on an external amp which may not be required. Keep in mind that even running 11 speakers, only the FL/C/FR speakers are drawing the most power .... the remaining speakers drawing very little.
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post #77 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 01:56 PM
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So, if I understand correctly, if, in the future, I decide to get a pre/pro rather than an AVR (just a theoretical question) and I have space for my two current AVRs (each has a multi-channel input and they are rated very closely to each other in 2CH and all CH modes, based on reviews that bench tested them), I would be able to forgo the purchase of a separate amp? Right now, combined, I would have 12 channels of available amplification--and if using a pre/pro, rather than an AVR with potentially limited ways of assigning internal amps, I would have complete freedom to assign each amp as I wish? If so, this opens some possibilities I had not imagined.
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post #78 of 97 Old 05-21-2018, 02:12 PM
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So, if I understand correctly, if, in the future, I decide to get a pre/pro rather than an AVR (just a theoretical question) and I have space for my two current AVRs (each has a multi-channel input and they are rated very closely to each other in 2CH and all CH modes, based on reviews that bench tested them), I would be able to forgo the purchase of a separate amp? Right now, combined, I would have 12 channels of available amplification--and if using a pre/pro, rather than an AVR with potentially limited ways of assigning internal amps, I would have complete freedom to assign each amp as I wish? If so, this opens some possibilities I had not imagined.
Correct.
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Correct.
Thank you. This is very useful information.
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post #80 of 97 Old 07-25-2018, 12:51 PM
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Hello everyone,
So I changed my mind, and I'm going to save money for a Denon X8500H, and use my old AVR from my system in my signature for heights. Then 8500 would do the seven bed channels. Thank you so much for your help guys!


Sincerely,
Dan

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post #81 of 97 Old 11-27-2018, 02:42 PM
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Is it possible to connect the L/R preouts on your main receiver to an analog device input on a second reviewer to biamp your main speakers? The secondary receiver doesn’t have channel inputs/pre ins. The main revierver would power the lows and the secondarily receiver would power the mids/highs. Second receiver is a yahama and doesn’t have a direct mode so stereo is the next best conpermise. All eq settings and processing is off on secondary receiver but there’s no way to change the speaker distance to 0(0.3m is the lowest it goes) so i’ve been having phasing issues. Is there any way to get around this? There’s a noticible phasing issue/echo/delay between the low range and mid/highs like you’re using a chamber or Hall mode.
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post #82 of 97 Old 12-21-2018, 08:23 PM
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Here are my thoughts and setup details for using a second AVR to power the Atmos heights.

I am running a Marantz SR7012 with Auro 3D speaker setup so I have 4 heights and a Top Surround (Voice Of God). Now the 7012 will power it as 5.1.4 but I needed an amp to power the VOG speaker as the output to that is supplied by the 2nd subwoofer pre-out. So rather than buy a mono amp I decided to use a spare Denon AVR1910 receiver. I was also unhappy with the 3d surround effects I was getting as it didn't seem to be much effect at all.

So I plugged in and wired up the Denon to power the heights and VOG and what an instant improvement - but that might just have been because the Denon was powering the heights a lot more than the beds without any setup.

So I proceeded to setup the Denon and was wondering about speaker levels, distances, master volume, Audyssey etc and after thinking about it realised that none of those matter because once you run Audyssey (or whatever you have) on the master receiver (the 7012) it will compensate for whatever the slave receiver is doing anyway.
Lets say the speakers are physically 3m from the MLP but front height left is set to 2m and 0db and the front height right is only 1m and -5db on the slave. When Audyssey is run on the master it will measure the difference in delay on these 2 speakers and will (should?) set the levels and distances to compensate for processing by both receivers.

But just to make it easier and more logical I set the Master Volume to 0, Speaker distance to 3.6m and levels to 0, turned all processing off and then reran Audyssey setup on the 7012. The new setup was as close as dammit exactly identical to the old (before I added the Denon). Speaker distances WERE exactly the same and the levels changed on the heights but they were all the same differences as before - all were increased by 5db. In light of that I increased the set volume on the slave receiver by 5db and reduced the level of the heights by 5db just to bring them back in line with the rest of the system.

It now sounds like it should and I am pretty sure there seems to be more detail and clarity overall - at least it seems to sound like a huge improvement to my ears - and the 3D effect is as it should be

And an added benefit f this setup is that if you want to change the amount of height effects, either more or less, then it is just a simple matter of adjusting the volume on the slave receiver.

I haven't had a chance to max it out volume wise yet, but I suspect it will play louder and better than before.
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post #83 of 97 Old 01-05-2019, 03:13 PM
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Hello,
So I have a chance to get the Onkyo TX-SR805 for $150. It's THX Ultra 2 certified, and has a great amp section. The final plan would be to have the 805 bi-amp the SVS Ultra Towers,(I've heard that SVS Ultra speakers are power hungry, and sound great with extra power) and have a Denon X8500 bi-amp the center channel , and power the remaining surrounds. My old Onkyo Htr-940 would power heights, everything controlled by the Denon x8500. Is this doable? Please advise.

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post #84 of 97 Old 02-15-2019, 01:23 AM
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Hi! I have ordered a Denon x 4500h because I wanted to experience 7.1.4 atmos via my Apple TV 4k. Currently my 7.1 setup consists of an ONKYO tx sr507 driving five HECO VICTA 4 ohm speakers (four 500's floorstanders and one 100 center), a 150watt Roister sub, and an old but trusty stereo int amp TEAC AX 3000 for driving the 2 Surround Back speakers (temporarily 4 Ohm "Graig" Car (no comments) speakers). I am planning to buy 4 Dali altecos and place them on the four upper corners of the room (10ft high, 11,5X11,5) but place the FH a little closer (1ft?) to the listening position. I know that this is not the ideal setup for atmos but i do not want to use plasterboard and down firing speakers, so the setup be more similar to the auro 3d one (the speakers will be able to rotate accordingly as I am planning to order adjustable speaker wall mounts). Please guide me if I should change something so far,or if you need any additional info. I do not know if I will feel an immersive difference in sound but I hope so! My main dilemma is how to use the amps and drive the speakers. Should I use the denon for the 9 channels amplification and leave the 2 (SBL/R or L,R Main or FH or RH) for the ONKYO or TEAC? Should I use the Denon as a 7 ch amp and drive the other 4(SBL/R and L,R Main or FH and RH) via ONKYO (MAIN and Zone 2) or ONKYO+TEAC (overkill option I think-using 3 amps). What do you think? Thank you in advance!
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post #85 of 97 Old 02-15-2019, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dreamstrider View Post
Hi! I have ordered a Denon x 4500h because I wanted to experience 7.1.4 atmos via my Apple TV 4k. Currently my 7.1 setup consists of an ONKYO tx sr507 driving five HECO VICTA 4 ohm speakers (four 500's floorstanders and one 100 center), a 150watt Roister sub, and an old but trusty stereo int amp TEAC AX 3000 for driving the 2 Surround Back speakers (temporarily 4 Ohm "Graig" Car (no comments) speakers). I am planning to buy 4 Dali altecos and place them on the four upper corners of the room (10ft high, 11,5X11,5) but place the FH a little closer (1ft?) to the listening position. I know that this is not the ideal setup for atmos but i do not want to use plasterboard and down firing speakers, so the setup be more similar to the auro 3d one (the speakers will be able to rotate accordingly as I am planning to order adjustable speaker wall mounts). Please guide me if I should change something so far,or if you need any additional info. I do not know if I will feel an immersive difference in sound but I hope so! My main dilemma is how to use the amps and drive the speakers. Should I use the denon for the 9 channels amplification and leave the 2 (SBL/R or L,R Main or FH or RH) for the ONKYO or TEAC? Should I use the Denon as a 7 ch amp and drive the other 4(SBL/R and L,R Main or FH and RH) via ONKYO (MAIN and Zone 2) or ONKYO+TEAC (overkill option I think-using 3 amps). What do you think? Thank you in advance!

I would run the bed level speakers form the Denon (and maybe the FR and FL from the TEAC if it is better quality than the Denon??) and the 4 Atmos height speakers from Onkyo.

I would also make sur e the MLP is as close as possible to centrally located between the Atmos speakers.
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post #86 of 97 Old 02-15-2019, 06:26 AM
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Thank you for your answer. I believe that the TEAC amp is more musical of course than the AVRs. It is an old 90s German made amp. I do not know if the benefits outweigh the hassle of using three amps for my purpose. I listen to music sometimes but not all the time. Anyway I will probably use Denon (Main and surround speakers) & Onkyo (for the 4 Atmos speakers).
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post #87 of 97 Old 02-25-2019, 02:20 PM
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So I been reading through the thread but still unsure on a few things. I have an old Yamaha 2040 that I was using in 7.1.2 mode. I have a new Denon 6500H that I am using in the same 7.1.2 mode. I am looking to use the power on the Yamaha and Denon to power all the channels but the sub. I understand I put the Yamaha in direct mode, but I am confused on the connections of the 2 receivers. I am not looking to have the Yamaha power some of the speakers I want provide extra power to all of them. Does it makes sense to do it that way? Can someone look at the 2 photos and let me know the correct connections?
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Last edited by yld2rob; 02-25-2019 at 02:30 PM.
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post #88 of 97 Old 02-25-2019, 05:28 PM
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You can't 'join' the two AVRs together to add power to the channels. You can only power channels off one amp or the other.
But if you run 5 channels from one and 4 from the other they will put out more power than running 9 channels from one amp.


I would suggest you run 5.1.4, if possible, to get 4 Atmos speakers as this is a better setup than 7.1.2. Run the 4 height speakers from the Yamaha - connect from the height pre-outs on the Denon to the height multi-channel in on the Yamaha.

Last edited by niterida; 02-25-2019 at 05:32 PM.
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post #89 of 97 Old 04-18-2019, 07:33 PM
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Hmm, I was looking to move up to an 7.1.4 RZ830 AVR and researching what to get to power the rear speakers.

I wonder now if it would be better to keep my Pioneer VSX-1131 just to power the rears and maybe also have it power a set of heights through zone 2.
I picked up the 1131 so cheap at just $215. I am not sure I could sell it to recoup $150 after fees. So, the VSX1131 would be overkill in terms of features, but versus even a $120 after tax cheap amp, it wouldn't be much extra cost. I suppose being able to offload a 2nd set of speakers from the 7.1.4 receiver could be some benefit as well in that it would give more headroom possibly to the 7.1.4 receiver.

LOL, if I hadn't just given away two old receivers I could have used those to power the rears.

Probably my biggest concern is just the space to keep an additional receiver, as well as possibly the extra heat and power consumption as well as a bit more complexity than just attaching an amp.
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post #90 of 97 Old 09-03-2019, 08:00 PM
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Bought the 805 for LCR, and running the 940 for surrounds, saved me a bunch of money from buying an amp, as the 805 has a killer amp section. Enjoying great dynamics with the SVS Ultra towers and center which are in fact low impedance speakers!

TCL/Roku 65" R615 4K TV, SVS Ultra 5.0 Tower Surround System, Onkyo TX-SR805 for LCR, Onkyo HTR 940 for Surrounds, Dual SVS PB-2000 Subwoofers, Sony UBP X700 4K Ultra Blu-ray Player
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