5.1.4 vs 7.1.4 -- rear surrounds worth the effort/$$$? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 53 Old 03-14-2019, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphelps View Post
I do believe the next step is a ".6" setup to become standard with a top-middle along with top-front and top-rear.

I wouldn't be surprised that in a few years we might not be calibrating systems with two or more microphones because it would then be able to figure out spacial relationships automatically.

Don't forget floor speakers!
I'm surprised the flagship and ultra-premium receivers don't already do multi-mic setup, though it's likely a development/implementation issue from Audyssey (or other room calibration systems).
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post #32 of 53 Old 03-14-2019, 01:25 PM
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Thanks for the responses. I’m leaning towards a 5.1.4 setup now. How do you all feel about bipole surrounds (vs. monopole in-wall speakers) in this Atmos setup (between the front and back row)?
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post #33 of 53 Old 03-14-2019, 01:43 PM
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bipole or dipole speakers have not been recommended from Dolby for a long time now.

Even if you have multiple seats the rule is to setup your room for the primary seat (Your seat). In general you are the one that cares the must about the sound and the wife and kids will be happy to sit in the back or on the floor and they will still enjoy the sound as much as in the sweet spot.
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post #34 of 53 Old 03-14-2019, 02:28 PM
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[QUOTE=richieroro;57746358]Thanks for the responses. I’m leaning towards a 5.1.4 setup now. How do you all feel about bipole surrounds (vs. monopole in-wall speakers) in this Atmos setup (between the front and back row)?[/QUOTE)]

If you're placing your side speakers between two rows, then Bipole speakers would be ideal. Even more so if your room is narrow. Do not confuse bipole with dipole. Dipole would not be recommend.

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post #35 of 53 Old 03-14-2019, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richieroro View Post
Thanks for the responses. I’m leaning towards a 5.1.4 setup now. How do you all feel about bipole surrounds (vs. monopole in-wall speakers) in this Atmos setup (between the front and back row)?
With multiple rows I wouldn't even consider anything less than a 7.x.4 setup. No sense, since the back seats will be feeling "left out" of the sound bubble. It is quite dramatic on newer soundtracks.
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post #36 of 53 Old 03-15-2019, 06:42 AM
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I have a 7.1.4 setup and never really noticed much coming from the Surround Back.

But then I read that the Surrounds are better placed at 80-90 degrees instead of the Atmos recommended 90-110deg. Wow what a difference it made to the Atmos effect.
I haven't played with it much since that change but I suspect that my Surround Backs will be more noticeable with my Surrounds a bit further forward.
So if you can move Surrounds forward it may well be beneficial to run Surround Backs. I will try to remember to report back once I do some testing/tuning/listening.
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post #37 of 53 Old 03-15-2019, 06:55 AM
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Been running a 5.1.4 setup for awhile, and just added 2 surround back channels about 2 days ago. So far, it's not a major difference, but it is noticeable. Not as major as going from a 5.1.2 to a 5.1.4, but still a pretty good improvement and seems to make the sound more full or enveloping, not sure the term, but it's good. I think it was worth it and hope that it will be even better after some additional fine tuning. Also, I am hoping to move my side surrounds forward more in the future to about a 90 degree position, but can't yet due to missing a wall on one side (but will be building out that wall in May/June so will probably move the side surrounds then).
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post #38 of 53 Old 03-24-2019, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by m0j0 View Post
Been running a 5.1.4 setup for awhile, and just added 2 surround back channels about 2 days ago. So far, it's not a major difference, but it is noticeable. Not as major as going from a 5.1.2 to a 5.1.4, but still a pretty good improvement and seems to make the sound more full or enveloping, not sure the term, but it's good. I think it was worth it and hope that it will be even better after some additional fine tuning. Also, I am hoping to move my side surrounds forward more in the future to about a 90 degree position, but can't yet due to missing a wall on one side (but will be building out that wall in May/June so will probably move the side surrounds then).

After having them in place for a bit longer, I can say I am very glad I added these to my setup. What I noticed is that you get a more rich experience with action scenes where something is coming at you onscreen, like a car or train, for instance, as you can more clearly hear the sound pass from the front center to the rear surrounds directly behind you, giving you a more immersive experience. It also helps with panning where sound is traveling around the room. I thought the sound was pretty good with just the side surrounds before, but these speakers really make me feel like I am just fully enveloped in sound.
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post #39 of 53 Old 03-25-2019, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Blacklightning View Post
bipole or dipole speakers have not been recommended from Dolby for a long time now.

Even if you have multiple seats the rule is to setup your room for the primary seat (Your seat). In general you are the one that cares the must about the sound and the wife and kids will be happy to sit in the back or on the floor and they will still enjoy the sound as much as in the sweet spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by richieroro View Post
Thanks for the responses. I’m leaning towards a 5.1.4 setup now. How do you all feel about bipole surrounds (vs. monopole in-wall speakers) in this Atmos setup (between the front and back row)?
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Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post
If you're placing your side speakers between two rows, then Bipole speakers would be ideal. Even more so if your room is narrow. Do not confuse bipole with dipole. Dipole would not be recommend.
I certainly appreciate this feedback. My experience with dipole surrounds is much different from what I've read and heard for many years in regards to utilizing them in an Atmos configuration. In my 7.2.4 Dolby Atmos theater, I feature dipole side and back surrounds and my front-to-back, back-to-front, and 360-degree imaging is flawless. I think a lot of problems may arise through poor dipole surround speaker placement and these speakers being configured out-of-phase. I think with proper installation and polarity, you can be rewarded with complete immersion as intended. As always, YMMV

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post #40 of 53 Old 04-05-2019, 06:46 PM
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I was recently reviewing this very issue and wanted to share my solution. We have a small home theater in our new home, I miss the old one, but when you retire it’s time to downsize a bit. And I mean downsize. We went from an 18x24 basement theater that sat 12 to converting what was the den in our new home build into a three/four seat theater. It’s a 12x14 room with a 10’ ceiling.

I went back and forth on this room for several months. We were new build so I had a choice of where to put the entry, foyer or hallway. Do I go 14’ wide and four seats or 12’ wide and three. How many speakers? What kind of display? On and on and on. I started to get OCD over it and I needed to make a decision so we could close up the room during the build, it was designed as a pass through space so closing up the walls was an easy mod. My wife got to the point where she asked what’s wrong just getting a big flatscreen and using the family room.

I chose to focus the money on the display and went 12’ deep and set the seats back far enough from the microperf. When it came to audio, I looked at the small room and went back and forth on 5.1.4, 7.1.2 or 7.1.4. The room just doesn’t lend itself to a ton of speakers and I didn’t want to be overwhelmed sitting that close to the backwall.

In came the Yamaha RX-3080. Its a 9.2 receiver with 11.2 processing. It was a win win for me. It will play back 7.2 for non-Atmos/DTS-X or 5.1.4 for Atmos/DTS-X. If I didn’t feel overwhelmed I could add an amp for the mains and get 7.2.4. Hooked it up and it’s perfect, at least for this smaller room. The processor switches between 7.2 and 5.2.4 on its own depending on the material and it just works for a room this size and proximity to the speakers. If the room were say 15x20 I would have gone with an 11.1/2 receiver, but this is perfect for us.

Side note, speakers are Klipsch 5650 series with all of the surrounds R-5650-S II which spreads things out in the surround and rear base layer. 5650-W IIs are behind the screen and four 5650-C IIs in the ceiling. Not too much speaker for the room.

And we ended up putting a 75” Sony with a Yamaha Atmos Soundbar in the living room for times when we have family over fo a Super Bowl or whatever. Works out nice.

More HD please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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post #41 of 53 Old 04-08-2019, 02:58 PM
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I have Pioneer VSX-LX503 receiver that can run Dolby 9.2 True HD or Atmos.

I am LIMITED to 8" ceiling speakers for middle, rear surround and rear channels (cannot do floor stands).

Should I try to run Atmos in some way or run a particular Dolby audio format with the ceiling speakers I do have?

Available Speakers:
Center - B&W large
Front - B&W large floor stand
Sub - 12" sub
Front L/R - 8" ceiling
Rear Surround - 8" ceiling
Rear L/R - 8" ceiling
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post #42 of 53 Old 04-15-2019, 11:04 AM
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We've had a 7.2 system for a number of years. Frankly, the rear surrounds have been "underwhelming". In the first home I set up 7.2 in I was very surprised that the vast majority of surround sound was coming from the side surrounds. When we bought a new home, I set up 7.2 again, but in a smaller room. Again, most of the sound was coming from the side surrounds. That's why I decided to go with a Yamaha RX-A2070 when I upgraded my AVR from an older Onkyo. After testing Atmos with a pair of speakers mounted high on the side walls, slightly behind the MLP, the "envelopment" that I always felt lacking from my 7.2 came alive. The down-side is finding the best location for the speakers that will carry the Atmos information. I decided against cutting more holes in the walls/ceiling (my conventional surrounds are in-wall) and have ordered a pair of SVS Prime Elevations which I intend to mount on the ceiling, angled towards the MLP. Since initially I'm going with a single pair to handle the Atmos effect, SVS recommended that I place them directly above the side surrounds, mounted on the ceiling or high on the side walls. If I decide to go with a 2nd pair of Prime Elevations I'll move the initial pair and position them in front of the MLP and the 2nd pair behind the MLP. Since my AVR will only do 7.2.2 or 5.2.4, the question remains: what to do with the rear-surrounds? Since my rear surrounds are mounted more than half way up the rear wall, I'm going to experiment by switching to a 5.2.4 configuration with the existing in-wall rear surrounds becoming a 2nd set of Atmos speakers. This is obviously not the way Dolby wants this, but it's at least worth experimenting with. It's easy to switch back to 7.2.2 by simply moving speaker jacks on the AVR. I'll post further once I have the Prime Elevations installed. Oh, and I carefully checked the phase on the original rear surrounds. It is spot on. In a world of compromises, this approach seems worth trying. Any thoughts or observations any of you have will be welcomed.

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post #43 of 53 Old 04-15-2019, 11:27 AM
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We have experimented with different set ups for years. INMO, the "bed" speakers at ear level, are more important than additional overhead speakers. Human hearing is optimized for detecting information (including predators) at ground level. Localizing sounds above us is not as big a priority. When we went to Atmos, we went all the way to 7.2.4. However, if I had to pick, I would choose the rear surrounds over additional overhead. A key point that is often glossed over is to try and have all the "bed" level speakers at ear level, relative to the main seating. This really contributes to immersive sound bubbles. If you can, then add 4 overhead speakers at 45% angles relative to the main seating (per Atmos guidelines). However, 2 speakers, directly overhead, would probably be enough to get at least 90% of the Atmos "vibe". When we went to Atmos, we had to remodel the room and run new wiring. Speaker wire is cheap. Contractor time, not so much. So, we ran additional wiring to the front ceiling locations to install more speakers, if Atmos AVRs evolve to 7.1.6. So far, we have not used the additional wiring, but it's nice to "future proof" when possible.
My $.02...
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post #44 of 53 Old 04-15-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by humbland View Post
We have experimented with different set ups for years. INMO, the "bed" speakers at ear level, are more important than additional overhead speakers. Human hearing is optimized for detecting information (including predators) at ground level. Localizing sounds above us is not as big a priority. When we went to Atmos, we went all the way to 7.2.4. However, if I had to pick, I would choose the rear surrounds over additional overhead. A key point that is often glossed over is to try and have all the "bed" level speakers at ear level, relative to the main seating. This really contributes to immersive sound bubbles. If you can, then add 4 overhead speakers at 45% angles relative to the main seating (per Atmos guidelines). However, 2 speakers, directly overhead, would probably be enough to get at least 90% of the Atmos "vibe". When we went to Atmos, we had to remodel the room and run new wiring. Speaker wire is cheap. Contractor time, not so much. So, we ran additional wiring to the front ceiling locations to install more speakers, if Atmos AVRs evolve to 7.1.6. So far, we have not used the additional wiring, but it's nice to "future proof" when possible.
My $.02...
Thanks, that's good food for thought. When I put together the HT room in our new home, I put in a 'riser' behind the MLP row of seats and put a large sofa on it. Unfortunately that meant putting the rear surrounds higher than the side surrounds. When we had the walls and part of the ceiling open, I was too busy with other aspects of the new home and remodeling and failed to closely watch everything the contractors were doing. As a result, they didn't use conduit for my HDMI cable, and both the rear and side surrounds are not in the optimal locations. It didn't help that all my THX training (I'm a Level-2 certified installer) was based upon Tomlinson Holman's diffuse surround field, using di-polar surrounds and mounting them above the MLP. I was able to reposition the side surrounds, and replaced the dipole surrounds with direct firing speakers, but didn't want to risk marital discord by opening up the back wall again Currently, the LCR's, subs, and side surrounds are working nicely. What I lack is that sense of front-to-back movement. That's what's got me to experiment with Atmos.

Good Viewing,John G  JVC DLA-X790 Projector, Vutec 110" (16x9) Bright White Screen, Oppo UDP-203 region free MOD disc player, Zappiti Mini4K HDR, Synology DS418 NAS, Yamaha RX-A2070 AVR, Toshiba 1250 NTSC-PAL Region Free BR Player, 7 Paradigm Reference spkrs w Dual Subs,   & Yamaha 6600 External Amp
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post #45 of 53 Old 07-24-2019, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by RDalton View Post
I certainly appreciate this feedback. My experience with dipole surrounds is much different from what I've read and heard for many years in regards to utilizing them in an Atmos configuration. In my 7.2.4 Dolby Atmos theater, I feature dipole side and back surrounds and my front-to-back, back-to-front, and 360-degree imaging is flawless. I think a lot of problems may arise through poor dipole surround speaker placement and these speakers being configured out-of-phase. I think with proper installation and polarity, you can be rewarded with complete immersion as intended. As always, YMMV
I'm currently building my Home Theater and have Dipole rear and side surrounds. I read that when using Dipole speakers for a 7 channel setup you should swap L/R channels for the rear surrounds to avoid cancellation. Is this what you have done? Thanks
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post #46 of 53 Old 08-05-2019, 03:29 PM
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I'm currently building my Home Theater and have Dipole rear and side surrounds. I read that when using Dipole speakers for a 7 channel setup you should swap L/R channels for the rear surrounds to avoid cancellation. Is this what you have done? Thanks
It's basically positioning and connecting your surround speakers to be in-phase with the speaker next to it. Here's a diagram illustrating how I wired mine. Hope it helps!
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post #47 of 53 Old 08-06-2019, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by RDalton View Post
It's basically positioning and connecting your surround speakers to be in-phase with the speaker next to it. Here's a diagram illustrating how I wired mine. Hope it helps!
Thanks! so basically what you did was put the Left rear on the right side and Right rear on the left correct?
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post #48 of 53 Old 08-08-2019, 08:12 AM
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Thanks! so basically what you did was put the Left rear on the right side and Right rear on the left correct?
If that puts your surrounds in-phase, then I would think that would work. If anyone can confirm, please "speak" up, lol.

My surround speakers can to be wall-mounted upside down, so I mounted my left-side surround speaker upside down, my back-left surround right-side up, my back-right surround upside down, and my right-side surround right-side up.

Hope that helps!

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post #49 of 53 Old 08-08-2019, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by RDalton View Post
If that puts your surrounds in-phase, then I would think that would work. If anyone can confirm, please "speak" up, lol.

My surround speakers can to be wall-mounted upside down, so I mounted my left-side surround speaker upside down, my back-left surround right-side up, my back-right surround upside down, and my right-side surround right-side up.

Hope that helps!
So how did you determine what was the (+) side vs the (-) I guess that should have been my first question.
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post #50 of 53 Old 08-12-2019, 06:30 PM
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I am interested about this thread question as well.. because my room is the rectangle shape and I am positioning the side surround where is usually the back speaker location, degrees maybe 130 but I did not toe it toward MLP to make some reflection from side walls ( also got some stuff around there for diffuse) Anyway AVR still got 2 channels empty.. So can it be worth to try to add real position side surround?, mainly the problem is it is pretty close to MLP comparing to FCR and the back surround (because rectangle room).. maybe 1/2 distance and that location have to place it really close to wall so maybe sound a bit difference?. On another hand audy EQ can manage the level and time so I am just thinking about shrader effects will make a problem???
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post #51 of 53 Old 08-13-2019, 12:12 PM
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So how did you determine what was the (+) side vs the (-) I guess that should have been my first question.
My speaker binding posts are labeled.
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post #52 of 53 Old 08-13-2019, 06:45 PM
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My speaker binding posts are labeled.
So on your speakers the Di-polar speaker orientation matches your binding post polarity? I wonder if mine like like that at well.
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post #53 of 53 Old 08-14-2019, 11:20 AM
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So on your speakers the Di-polar speaker orientation matches your binding post polarity? I wonder if mine like like that at well.
Half of them didn't, so I had to mount every other speaker upside-down as detailed in my bolded quote below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RDalton View Post
If that puts your surrounds in-phase, then I would think that would work. If anyone can confirm, please "speak" up, lol.

My surround speakers can to be wall-mounted upside down, so I mounted my left-side surround speaker upside down, my back-left surround right-side up, my back-right surround upside down, and my right-side surround right-side up.

Hope that helps!

Media Room: Sony VPL-VW675ES, Anthem MRX-1120, Oppo UDP-205, Atlantic Technology THX Ultra2 371LR, 373C, 374LRSSR, 454LRBSR, Dual SVS PB-4000 Subs, (4) AT IC-6-OBA Atmos Ceiling Speakers, DirecTV c61K, Roku Ultra, Sony PS4, Sonos Connect | Living Room: LG OLED65C8PUA, Oppo UDP-203, DirecTV c61K, Sonos Playbar & Wireless Sub, Sonos PLAY:1 Surrounds, Sonos Connect | Patio: Onkyo TX-DS989v2, PSB CS1000 Outdoor Speakers, Sonos Connect | Control4 Home Automation
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