7.1.2 vs 5.1.4 vs 7.1.4 Configurations - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 22 Old 07-11-2019, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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7.1.2 vs 5.1.4 vs 7.1.4 Configurations

Hello,

I have a 12'x24' room that is currently setup for 7.1 and am debating whether to add 2 front height speakers (already have them) for a 7.1.2 setup or move the rears to Back heights and go with 5.1.4. I am also considering buying another pair of speakers and going to 7.1.4, which I am sure would be the best bet.

For my height speakers, I need to install them on the front and back walls angled down to the listening position. Will I get a good enough Atmos effect similar to having the speakers on the ceiling?

On the Dolby site it does not show any options for front/back height speakers only ceiling or upward firing.

Thank you in advance for any advice/guidance!

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post #2 of 22 Old 07-12-2019, 05:03 AM
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Its not really about speakers on walls or ceiling, its about angles so it depends on your room and where you sit in relation to the speakers.
Look at the atmos diagrams to see angles and see how that relates to your placement options.
I dont have an atmos setup myself but since its been a while and no other replies yet i figured it would be a place to start at least.


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post #3 of 22 Old 07-12-2019, 08:58 AM
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Mount the height speakers as high up as you can on the front & back walls, aimed towards the listeners. Try to keep the Front speakers and Rear speakers as close to seated ear height as possible (it's OK if the Side speakers are a little more elevated). The goal is to separate sounds around you versus sounds above you.
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post #4 of 22 Old 07-12-2019, 09:31 PM
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I don't personally care for a 7.x.x setup in a smaller room.

I'd setup a 5.1.4 in a room that size.

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Source: HTPC w/madVR, Video: Epson 5040, 150" 16:9, Audio: Onkyo RZ 830 avr, 5.1.4 Atmos setup. 5 speaker Energy C Series: L/R C300's, C C-C100, SR/SL C50's, 4 in-ceiling Micca R-8c. Subwoofer: MiniMarty um18 w/NX3000D.
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post #5 of 22 Old 07-13-2019, 04:40 AM
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Atmos is of great benefit with 4 ceiling speakers. It's sort of worthless in a x.1.2 configuration.
Also, I don't see any benefit of 7.1 over 5.1 in your situation.
So, 5.1.4 would be where I'd be going if I were you.

The only other place where 7.1.4 may be of use over your 5.1.4 is for rear rows as your main listening position can be just as good with 5.1.4 as 7.1.4. But if you have several rows behind you, adding the rear surrounds may be of some use for guests.

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post #6 of 22 Old 07-13-2019, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone, appreciate the input!

I will start with a 5.1.4 setup and experience that first!

Next question, as I place the front and back wall atmos speakers up high in the corners, do they need to be angled inwards to the primary listening position as well as being angled down?

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post #7 of 22 Old 07-13-2019, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
Mount the height speakers as high up as you can on the front & back walls, aimed towards the listeners. Try to keep the Front speakers and Rear speakers as close to seated ear height as possible (it's OK if the Side speakers are a little more elevated). The goal is to separate sounds around you versus sounds above you.
Sanjay, based on your experience, how much benefit would two ceiling speakers will bring to a 5.1 set up? That is considering how much content with Atmos is available and how well 2 ceiling speakers will perform. The room is big (18 by 30 ft) but the listening area is 13 by 18 ft. Projector screen on 13 ft wall.
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post #8 of 22 Old 07-13-2019, 02:50 PM
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Dolby guidance for ATMOS recommends placing Overhead Speakers roughly where the REFLECTION point would be if using Speakers with ATMOS Speakers mounted on top pointed at about 45-deg angle towards the Primary Listener's position....which PRESUMABLY would be what the ATMOS Mixing Engineer would ALSO use when preparing the Sound Track....so THAT would be the ULTIMATE GOAL....and anything less would be a bit of a Compromise...esp. if using only 2 ATMOS Height Speakers, rather than FOUR which allow ATMOS sounds to come from ANY compass direction:
https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolo...guidelines.pdf

However, if you only have an AVR with at most 2 ATMOS Speakers (like MOST AVR's), then you might want to only install the Forward Pair of Overhead ATMOS Speakers....or Rear Overhead....or perhaps directly OVERHEAD....it's YOUR Choice as to where YOU want those HELO's to hover.

That being said, many people get just as much enjoyment with ATMOS Speakers installed on the FRONT or Front/Side Walls....

Note that 7.1.4 configuration you mentioned requires an 11-Channel AVR [Ultimate choice...if you already have a suitable AVR]...which are MUCH more expensive than most 9-Channel AVR's capable of 7.1.2 and 5.1.4 configurations.

My fol. posts (3 in a row) may of interest, with an Excellent set of figures from my SonInLaw's ONKYO 5.1.2 [7-Channel] AVR Manual, showing FRONT Height Speaker Mounting Option:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-sp...l#post55213654

And a much briefer set of figures from ONKYO 5.1.4 [9-Channel] AVR Manual, also showing FRONT Height Speaker Mounting Option:
https://www.eu.onkyo.com/downloads/3...BAS_ADV_En.pdf

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post #9 of 22 Old 07-13-2019, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you!

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post #10 of 22 Old 07-13-2019, 03:09 PM
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Re. Speaker "Pointing" Angles: Speakers vary quite a bit off-axis on the higher frequencies....so the High Frequency sounds from the Tweeter will sound quite a bit stronger when L/R Speakers are toed-in to directly face the Primary Listener. This is ALSO true of Surround and ATMOS Speakers. It is much more a Frequency Response MATCHING issue than an ATMOS issue....although the ATMOS effect will be diminished if they are NOT fairly well MATCHED.

The AVR's Room Equalization process "should" adjust the High Frequency Response of EACH Speaker so that EACH provides a "Flat" Frequency Response, which can overcome excessive "brightness" that MIGHT occur when aimed directly AT the Listener....and boost High Frequencies as required if NOT directly aimed, so you don't HAVE to have them aimed directly AT the Listener, but nonetheless should NOT be off by more than say 30 degrees.

I picked the fol. Spec. Sheet as an example of the Excellent AMT [Air Motion Transformer] type Tweeter. Note that 45-deg off-axis Frequency Response is considerable reduced from On-Axis....MUCH more than the 30-deg off-axis Response. I chose AMT technology, since it is an improvement over the "similar" Planar-Magnetic and Ribbon Tweeter technologies. Azimuthal [and Elevation] Frequency Response for other Tweeters may be better or worse than the Mini-8....so YMMV:
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/275-095s.pdf [Dayton Audio AMT Mini-8 Spec Sheet]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Motion_Transformer [AMT Wiki Article]
http://www.hedd.audio/en/hedd-amt [HEDD AMT Technical Description]

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post #11 of 22 Old 07-13-2019, 03:31 PM
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I have a 7.2.4 config and love it. I would agree with everyone else, start with 5.1.4 and then upgrade to 7.1.4. From your signature, your Anthem config will support up to 7.2.4.

As mentioned in the link above, since you are going with on wall ATMOS speakers instead of in ceiling make sure they are installed not necessarily in the corners but 30 degrees horizontal angle to your main listening position, and then angled down to your main listening position.

One other consideration is that the two height pairs should match in timber, therefore when you buy the additional pair try to match them to one of your existing surround pairs.

Even though you have a badass sub, if budget permits I would add a 2nd sub as well to balance the LFE soundfield.

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post #12 of 22 Old 07-13-2019, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
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Sanjay, based on your experience, how much benefit would two ceiling speakers will bring to a 5.1 set up?
Two ceiling speakers will add the element of height, turning a 2D ring of sound into a 3D bubble of sound.

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post #13 of 22 Old 07-14-2019, 07:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a 7.2.4 config and love it. I would agree with everyone else, start with 5.1.4 and then upgrade to 7.1.4. From your signature, your Anthem config will support up to 7.2.4.

As mentioned in the link above, since you are going with on wall ATMOS speakers instead of in ceiling make sure they are installed not necessarily in the corners but 30 degrees horizontal angle to your main listening position, and then angled down to your main listening position.

One other consideration is that the two height pairs should match in timber, therefore when you buy the additional pair try to match them to one of your existing surround pairs.

Even though you have a badass sub, if budget permits I would add a 2nd sub as well to balance the LFE soundfield.
Thank you! I will be using Paradigm Studio 20's for both from and rear so they match perfectly.

Would a second sub not be overkill in my room size?

One other question: I am seeing different configurations from different manufacturers and sites on where the side surrounds should be placed. Some have them at the side of the listener and some are behind the listener. Is there a better experience to be had with one or the other positioning? Or is it a matter of seeing which one works better for each environment?

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post #14 of 22 Old 07-14-2019, 08:13 PM
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Thank you! I will be using Paradigm Studio 20's for both from and rear so they match perfectly.

Would a second sub not be overkill in my room size?

One other question: I am seeing different configurations from different manufacturers and sites on where the side surrounds should be placed. Some have them at the side of the listener and some are behind the listener. Is there a better experience to be had with one or the other positioning? Or is it a matter of seeing which one works better for each environment?
Two SB16s would be more than is needed for the room, but it will balance the LFE. I'd call SVS Support for their opinion, they provide excellent support. My guess is that you would just tune them down.

I would follow the Dolby ATMOS config guideline that was posted earlier, the side surrounds should be at the side, 90 degrees to the main listening position. See page 37 which would be the appropriate config to follow when you ultimately get to 7.1.4. Or 7.2.4
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post #15 of 22 Old 07-15-2019, 05:01 AM
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Thank you! I will be using Paradigm Studio 20's for both from and rear so they match perfectly.



Would a second sub not be overkill in my room size?



One other question: I am seeing different configurations from different manufacturers and sites on where the side surrounds should be placed. Some have them at the side of the listener and some are behind the listener. Is there a better experience to be had with one or the other positioning? Or is it a matter of seeing which one works better for each environment?


Surrounds should be to the side or side slightly behind, something like (85?/)90-110 degrees. Rear surrounds should go behind. Many put surrounds behind, some because they dont know where they are supposed to be and some because of practicality, it works but isnt optimal.


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post #16 of 22 Old 07-15-2019, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decibels View Post
Would a second sub not be overkill in my room size?

One other question: I am seeing different configurations from different manufacturers and sites on where the side surrounds should be placed. Some have them at the side of the listener and some are behind the listener. Is there a better experience to be had with one or the other positioning? Or is it a matter of seeing which one works better for each environment?
2 subs not overkill. I've got two in a 13x16 - life PlanetAVS mentioned, really helped even out the bass response over a larger number of positions in the room, and helped reduce localization in my case due to forced, less-than optimal placement. Less about the overkill, more about overall performance improvement possibilities!

I'd play with a range on those side surrounds if you can - 90 degrees is pretty typical, but I'd experiment by placing them at even 80 degrees and see what you think. Place them where their performance pleases you the most. Like you said - what works better for a given environment! Experimentation is a good thing.

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Paradigm Prestige 85F and 55C; Side / Rear Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III / Tribe I; Amplification: D-Sonic M3a-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w)
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Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
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2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Pioneer CLD-59

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post #17 of 22 Old 07-17-2019, 11:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you everyone for the input, very much appreciated!

The surrounds are currently at the sides of the listening position and will leave them there!

I will call SVS and get their input and I agree with you that their CS is excellent!

Thanks again everyone! I will be setting up the 5.1.4 system this weekend and will report back!
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post #18 of 22 Old 07-18-2019, 11:49 AM
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@decibels, 2 subs would be great in that room, properly placed and using REW. I have a 13X25 room with 3 subs. I am running a 5.3.4 set up with top heights and top middle, as that works best for me. As @PlanetAVS indicated, having that 30 angle, and all should be fine. I may upgrade some day, but that also requires a newer receiver. I am running a Denon X4200 with an external amp, and am very pleased with my current Atmos setup. I did have 1 sub at first in my room, then got another, as that really helped with the bass, and room response. REW is free software, and more importantly, is has a room simulator. You can move a simulated sub to see the possible room response you might get.
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post #19 of 22 Old 07-22-2019, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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@decibels, 2 subs would be great in that room, properly placed and using REW. I have a 13X25 room with 3 subs. I am running a 5.3.4 set up with top heights and top middle, as that works best for me. As @PlanetAVS indicated, having that 30 angle, and all should be fine. I may upgrade some day, but that also requires a newer receiver. I am running a Denon X4200 with an external amp, and am very pleased with my current Atmos setup. I did have 1 sub at first in my room, then got another, as that really helped with the bass, and room response. REW is free software, and more importantly, is has a room simulator. You can move a simulated sub to see the possible room response you might get.
Thank you, I have never used REW and will have to learn a little more about it. Will have to start saving coin for that second sub

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post #20 of 22 Old 07-23-2019, 03:52 AM
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@decibels, REW is great, takes some learning, but worth the time and effort. The room simulator will help you get an idea for placement. Saving for a 2nd sub is a great investment.
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post #21 of 22 Old 07-23-2019, 04:05 AM
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I think in a smaller room a 5.1.4 is perfect. 2 subwoofers are great for balanced sound. FYI my height speakers are on the L/R sides of the room. Like this: https://images.techhive.com/images/a...91205-orig.jpg

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post #22 of 22 Old 07-23-2019, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks again to everyone for their input!

I setup my system over the weekend and now have a 5.1.4 setup!!

First few listens of a couple of Atmos music discs was very impressive as the music truly envelops you! Played the demo trailers from Dolby Atmos website and found a couple of Atmos movies on Netflix to test as well. Even did some upmixing of 5.1 audio and it sounded pretty good too!

Had the wife come in for some listening and she was very impressed as well at how much difference adding some height speakers could make to the listening experience!

Overall, very happy with the setup and thanks again for the push to this configuration!
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