How to misrepresent double blind testing to scare people away - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 103 Old 05-17-2020, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
I have nothing against blind testing, even ABX, but it's not and should not be the be all and end all.
Thank goodness the doctors and scientists who develop medicine don't think this way.

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post #92 of 103 Old 05-17-2020, 10:15 AM
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Thank goodness the doctors and scientists who develop medicine don't think this way.
Except that's life and death -- not a subjective hobby.
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post #93 of 103 Old 05-17-2020, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Except that's life and death -- not a subjective hobby.
So if a test is very important we should be very careful, but we should be sloppy otherwise?
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post #94 of 103 Old 05-20-2020, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
..........................................
I have nothing against blind testing, even ABX, but it's not and should not be the be all and end all............................................... .
Well no, but anything that is not 'ears only' is just tavern talk.
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post #95 of 103 Old 05-20-2020, 11:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I fully get that many people haven't been educated about the topic of double blind testing because the unscrupulous dealers and the magazines which accept advertising dollars from the snake oil peddlers do everything in their power to scare people away from conducting blind testing on their own because it exposes their scams. Keeping people in the dark and continuing to spin their wheels with sighted, non-level matched comparisons is in their financial interest.

I once attempted to discuss the most critical aspect of valid audio testing, the not hard to understand concept that the two devices must be at the same precise listening volume (aka "level matched") and my thread instantly got hijacked before I could get into a specific tutorial, by people who have skin in the game who moved goal posts, redefined objectives to suit their narrative, and red herrings.

People interested in the truth support blind testing under valid conditions and encourage people to learn how to do it on their own, whereas deceitful people do everything in their power to scare people away and insist no consumer could possibly figure out how to do it on their own, so it is "best left to them, the experts you should trust".
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post #96 of 103 Old 05-20-2020, 11:17 AM
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Well no, but anything that is not 'ears only' is just tavern talk.
No, it's not just 'tavern talk'. It should be clear why, as I have explained in the past.
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post #97 of 103 Old 05-20-2020, 11:19 AM - Thread Starter
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No, it's not just 'tavern talk'. It should be clear why, as I have explained in the past.
Link please.
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post #98 of 103 Old 05-20-2020, 11:45 AM
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Dude, everyone knows that to establish at a scientific level that someone is hearing a difference of some sort between two different things requires some form of controlled blind testing. Duh. No one is disputing this. We'll, I'm certainly not. If you can't understand the difference between this and my logical (and practical) position on all of this, then there is no hope for you, because you're not being rational. I'm not into this hobby to prove at a scientific level the listening experience or experiences I'm having or not having to others, whatever my experiences may be. I'm in it to subjectively evaluate and enjoy (or not enjoy) the listening experiences, as should everyone else.

This is your religion -- it's not science, or pursuit of some alleged 'scientific truth'. Being skeptical of people's reported listening experiences with various equipment, cables, etc. is fine, and maybe even generally not accepting reported differences of certain things due to your various blind testing experiences, etc. is fine also. But thinking that proof at the scientific level is the standard everyone should be using before making any assessment about what they're hearing or not hearing in this hobby is laughably absurd.
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post #99 of 103 Old 05-20-2020, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
Dude, everyone knows that to establish at a scientific level that someone is hearing a difference of some sort between two different things requires some form of controlled blind testing. Duh. No one is disputing this. We'll, I'm certainly not. If you can't understand the difference between this and my logical (and practical) position on all of this, then there is no hope for you, because you're not being rational. I'm not into this hobby to prove at a scientific level the listening experience or experiences I'm having or not having to others, whatever my experiences may be. I'm in it to subjectively evaluate and enjoy (or not enjoy) the listening experiences, as should everyone else be.

This is your religion -- it's not science, or pursuit of some alleged 'scientific truth'. Being skeptical of people's reported listening experiences with various equipment, cables, etc. is fine, and maybe even generally not accepting reported differences of certain things due to your various blind testing experiences, etc. is fine also. But thinking that proof at the scientific level is the standard everyone should be using before making any assessment about what they're hearing or not hearing in this hobby, is laughably absurd.
I like how you make it seem as if it's nearly impossible for people to listen to two things without sneaking a peek at their labels (and effectively their price tags).

- Foobar ABX as well as other ABX apps are free and easy.
- Participating in a posted blind listening test by people like me, Archimago, Ethan Winer, or Mark Waldrep is free and easy.
- Having a listening buddy in your home switch between two level matched things outside of your vision is free and easy.

We know from scientists and peer reviewed scholarly journals that level matching and conducting blind testing isn't merely "useful": it's critical.

"if you want to obtain an accurate and reliable measure of how the audio product truly sounds, the listening test must be done blind. It’s time the audio industry grow up and acknowledge this fact, if it wants to retain the trust and respect of consumers."


https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/...o-product.html

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5539
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post #100 of 103 Old 05-20-2020, 12:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RWetmore View Post
This is your religion -- it's not science,
Science is my religion.
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post #101 of 103 Old 05-20-2020, 04:00 PM
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Nice vid I hadn't seen before, IIRC. Go Paul. I agree

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post #102 of 103 Old 05-20-2020, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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The most comical part is he remembers "he could hear a difference". . . but he doesn't even remember what it was being compared.

That's like ID'ing a suspect in a lineup as being the one who committed the crime you witnessed. . . but you can't remember what the crime was.

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post #103 of 103 Old 05-21-2020, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Nice vid I hadn't seen before, IIRC. Go Paul. I agree

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mHa...=youtu.be&t=47
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