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-   -   Audyssey and changing settings post calibration (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/3088788-audyssey-changing-settings-post-calibration.html)

Gus Rodeen 09-04-2019 09:53 AM

Audyssey and changing settings post calibration
 
I've read varying ideas and thoughts on the topic of this. My question is:

Does changing your speaker size, crossover, distance, and dB (using spl) AFTER Audyssey calibration, change the room correction? And if so, what is the point of running Audyssey at all?

I will be upgrading my AVR soon from the Onkyo NR787 to the Marantz SR6013. The main reason is for the room correction and calibration difference. My Onkyo uses AccuEQ, which in my opinion, is inferior to Audyssey. The new Marantz and Denon come with Audyssey XT32 plus the app that allows you to adjust the filters after calibration has ran. This seems more streamlined than my original plan of using REW, a UMIK-1 mic, and MiniDSP NanoAVR. Also, the DSP/REW solution isn't great for my 5.1.4 Atmos setup. I'd have to most like get (2) DSPs to handle my 9 mains and 1 sub. A Marantz or Denon in the $700-$900 range appears to be the best course of action.

But...as stated earlier. When I get the new AVR, should I set it up manually or with Audyssey? Doesn't changing all of those options after the calibration affect the sound that Audyssey just corrected for? For instance, let's focus on "distance". If Audyssey sets my left speaker at 10.2ft but it actually measures 11.7 to the main position, should I go in and change it to 11.7? My thinking hear is that during the Audyssey calibration, you place the mic in 8 positions. Also, the left speaker is in a corner with sound panels on the walls near it. Maybe that 10.2ft that Audyssey measured is "correcting" for materials, reflection, and multiple mic positions. Taking that same scenario further, wouldn't adjusting other settings post calibration have an affect on Audyssey EQ?

Please chime in with your thoughts and findings. My setup is 5.1.4 w/following equipment:

AVR: Onkyo NR787 (upgrading to Marantz SR6013)
L/C/R: Polk OWM5
LR/RR: Polk OWM5
Ceiling: Polk OWM3 (2 front / 2 rear)
Subwoofer: SVS PB-1000

strawberry 09-04-2019 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Rodeen (Post 58511942)
I've read varying ideas and thoughts on the topic of this. My question is:

Does changing your speaker size, crossover, distance, and dB (using spl) AFTER Audyssey calibration, change the room correction? And if so, what is the point of running Audyssey at all?

No- changing speaker size, crossovers, distance and levels does nothing to invalidate the filters put in place by Audyssey. It's standard practice to tweak size and crossovers after running the calibration, as Audyssey notoriously sets those incorrectly. Levels are generally pretty close, but might be honed in slightly better with an SPL meter. Post-Audyssey distances are generally best left alone outside of the sub distance tweak.

Leeliemix 09-04-2019 10:33 AM

Its only the 1st position which is used for distances and volume. The rest are only helping with room correction data.
Setting the crossovers higher is no problem but setting it lower compared to what auto setup found may cause a gap in the correction on that speaker afaik. Its not a problem since i have never read of any who have it auto set a too high crossover, its almost always set too low or speakers set to large (fullrange).

Remember that any room correction software can only do so much, if the room and placement is very bad its a problem.


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Adamg (Ret-Navy) 09-04-2019 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strawberry (Post 58512078)
No- changing speaker size, crossovers, distance and levels does nothing to invalidate the filters put in place by Audyssey. It's standard practice to tweak size and crossovers after running the calibration, as Audyssey notoriously sets those incorrectly. Levels are generally pretty close, but might be honed in slightly better with an SPL meter. Post-Audyssey distances are generally best left alone outside of the sub distance tweak.

Yes agreed. However, there is one small exception. If my memory serves. Changing a speakers crossover to a Lower value (From 80hz to 40Hz as an example) from what Audyssey set in the original calibration run. Audyssey determines the lowest level a speaker can play and then sets filters and crossover based on that number. Audyssey will not eq "below" that predetermined FR level. So you can go higher with no problems. If you go lower, than the user needs to understand that sounds below the original crossover will not be EQed properly.;)

strawberry 09-04-2019 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) (Post 58512148)
Yes agreed. However, there is one small exception. If my memory serves. Changing a speakers crossover to a Lower value (From 80hz to 40Hz as an example) from what Audyssey set in the original calibration run. Audyssey determines the lowest level a speaker can play and then sets filters and crossover based on that number. Audyssey will not eq "below" that predetermined FR level. So you can go higher with no problems. If you go lower, than the user needs to understand that sounds below the original crossover will not be EQed properly.;)

Yep- this is correct, and was something I neglected to mention.

m. zillch 09-04-2019 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Rodeen (Post 58511942)

Does changing your speaker size, crossover, distance, and dB (using spl) AFTER Audyssey calibration, change the room correction? And if so, what is the point of running Audyssey at all?

Audio hobbyists I've found tend to hate computer automation and assume their hearing is infallible and unbiased. Hence why perfectly good calibration systems are often looked down on and overridden.

m. zillch 09-04-2019 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gus Rodeen (Post 58511942)
When I get the new AVR, should I set it up manually or with Audyssey? Doesn't changing all of those options after the calibration affect the sound that Audyssey just corrected for?

Correct. Other than sometimes bumping up (but never down) a sub crossover to 80 Hz, and always setting speakers to "small" regardless of their physical size, I leave everything as Audyssey says. [Distances to the speakers, especially the sub, are sometimes altered by electrical and digital signal processing delays, BTW, so don't be surprised if its findings differ from that of a tape measure.]

If you listen at lower than 0dB playback level [way too loud for me] there might also be vaild reasons to raise the sub level say 3 to 6dB due to Fletcher-Munson equal loudness contours.

Leeliemix 09-04-2019 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m. zillch (Post 58512412)
Audio hobbyists I've found tend to hate computer automation and assume their hearing is infallible and unbiased. Hence why perfectly good calibration systems are often looked down on and overridden.



While audyssey does do distance and dB very well, its not that good at speaker size and crossover.

m. zillch 09-04-2019 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leeliemix (Post 58512444)
While audyssey does do distance and dB very well, its not that good at speaker size and crossover.

Good points. I addressed them in my second post.

Madmax67 09-05-2019 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leeliemix (Post 58512444)
While audyssey does do distance and dB very well, its not that good at speaker size and crossover.

Understandable considering Audyssey doesn't have anything to do with setting speaker size and crossovers. That's all up to the individual receiver manufacture to decide.

m. zillch 09-05-2019 09:10 PM

That may be technically true but to the end user it's all one and the same, isn't it? It's not like one can select "Please apply the Audyssey auto mic test but ignore what the receiver manufacturer says to do with the results".

Leeliemix 09-06-2019 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madmax67 (Post 58519292)
Understandable considering Audyssey doesn't have anything to do with setting speaker size and crossovers. That's all up to the individual receiver manufacture to decide.



I know, but everyone calls it the audyssey setup so ive stopped differentiating between the auto setup and audyssey all the time so new people get less confused.

Madmax67 09-06-2019 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leeliemix (Post 58519790)
I know, but everyone calls it the audyssey setup so ive stopped differentiating between the auto setup and audyssey all the time so new people get less confused.

I get it but newbs are going to be confused no matter what we say.

Madmax67 09-06-2019 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m. zillch (Post 58519338)
That may be technically true but to the end user it's all one and the same, isn't it? It's not like one can select "Please apply the Audyssey auto mic test but ignore what the receiver manufacturer says to do with the results".

You can change Large/ Small bass mgmt. settings and crossover settings afterwards. I guess I don't fully understand the technically true over true predicate. It's not Audyssey's fault the receiver makes lock down the final bass mgmt. setup options. The main reason to call out the AV makes specifically for setting crossovers and bass mgmt is because it's often done poorly and souring newbs on Audyssey even more ain't gonna change that. Gene Delsalla of Audioholics has a keen understanding of corporations mastery at deflection which is why he knew not to call out the FTC for not regulating power ratings better. He instead directly called out the AV makers with his truth in power petition and Onkyo subsequently pulled it's 1 channel 1KHZ power ratings from its website. Sound United has also given him reason to believe their future power rating listings will be less cluttered. Bottom line is the information isn't correct. Saying it's ok because there's nothing a user can do about it until after the receiver make unlocks it's own setup doesn't make much sense to me. Bottom line is Audyssey does not handle bass management. That includes speaker size and crossover settings.

m. zillch 09-06-2019 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madmax67 (Post 58519872)
. Bottom line is Audyssey does not handle bass management. That includes speaker size and crossover settings.

On every single Audyssey receiver ever made the auto process, including the corrective values extablished from it, is labelled "Audyssey", not "Audyssey measurements and D+M decisions" (even though that would be more technically accurate), so to an end user the distinction between what company actually makes the decisions of speaker size and crossover and what button they've invoked to elicite this automation process is immaterial.

Madmax67 09-06-2019 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m. zillch (Post 58522150)
On every single Audyssey receiver ever made the auto process, including the corrective values extablished from it, is labelled "Audyssey", not "Audyssey measurements and D+M decisions" (even though that would be more technically accurate), so to an end user the distinction between what company actually makes the decisions of speaker size and crossover and what button they've invoked to elicite this automation process is immaterial.

Again explaining how things actually work as opposed to how they're simply labeled may be immaterial to you but that's why we have a science based forum and not a PR based one.Technical reasons for how things operate is the whole reason AVS exists in the first place. The reason this matters is the AV makes set way too many speakers full range so by saying it's Audyssey doing the bass mgmt. gives them cover to never change it. The other reason is because it's the truth. For anyone interested in finding out how Audyssey works the Audyssey 101 FAQ's thread is an excellent resource for the nuts and bolts of how MultEQ operates.

m. zillch 09-06-2019 01:18 PM

Audyssey and D&M decisions based loosely on them can not be used independently in any Audyssey AVR ever made. The consumer has no way to differentiate what master company has done what sub-part of the process. Sure it might be nice if they could, but they can't. To the end user it is all one process.

Madmax67 09-06-2019 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m. zillch (Post 58522560)
Audyssey and D&M decisions based loosely on them can not be used independently in any Audyssey AVR ever made.

Can be changed after the fact without affecting Audyssey filters. All BM decisions are made be the AV manufacture not Audyssey. Even from what bit rate of Audyssey to offer to what crossover/ speaker size to select. I don't particularly care that there's not a neon sign announcing this in the menus.

Quote:

The consumer has no way to differentiate what master company has done what sub-part of the process. Sure it might be nice if they could, but they can't. To the end user it is all one process.
That's why we're supposed to do it and when I say we I mean the AVS community as a whole. This conversation is going nowhere fast and thus should be over. Good talk though.

m. zillch 09-06-2019 01:33 PM

So Madmax67, when a post says they "plugged in the Audyssey mic" do you correct them since Audyssey is not the actual manufacturer of the mic?

Madmax67 09-06-2019 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m. zillch (Post 58522666)
So Madmax67, when a post says they "plugged in the Audyssey mic" do you correct them since Audyeesy is not the manufacturer of the mic?

If the manufacture is overlaying their own dubious processes on top of the mics calibration file then yes. Next question? This also isn't just me being pedantic. This is all part and parcel as to why there are not 1 but 2 Audyssey FAQ's threads where all of this information has been collected over the years. FAQ's matter [emoji6].

m. zillch 09-06-2019 01:50 PM

To the best of my knowledge no party overlays any dubious process on top of the mic's calibration file, but the reason it is wrong to call the mic "an Audyssey mic" is because it was not made by Audyssey. This is a science forum after all so explaining the truth to people is very impotant. If the mic performs poorly in any way, or is awkward to use, people will incorrectly blame the wrong company. Think of how terrible that would be. By simply not describing the mic as "the Audyssey mic" we can prevent this horrible tragedy.

Oh the humanity: people misunderstanding who made the mic!
http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/me...uwZa/giphy.gif
:p


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