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post #1 of 26 Old 10-29-2019, 05:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Help choose my next upgrade

It's been several years since I've purchased new equipment and I'm getting a serious itch to upgrade my current 5.1 system. It's used for both movies and music. I'd be looking to get the biggest noticeable difference for money spent and need to keep it under $1,000. I'm open to any and all suggestions. The three upgrades I'm considering are as follows.


Better sub (think SVS PB2000 or HSU VTF-3 MK5).

A 2 or 3 channel amp for the mains/center channel.

A pair of bookshelf speakers to go 7.1.

Current Equipment

Receiver = Marantz SR6006 (8-ohm 2 channels driven = 110w) (8-ohm 5 to 7 channels driven = 73ish w)
Main speakers = Polk RTi10 (8-ohm / 89 sensitivity / handles up to 300w)
Center Channel = Polk CSi5 (8-ohm / 90 sensitivity / handles up to 200w)
Rear Surrounds = Polk FXi3 (8-ohm / 88 sensitivity / handles up to 150w / dipole/bipole)
Sub = PSW505 (12in / 300w RMS / 460w peak? / 28-125Hz frequency response)
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post #2 of 26 Old 10-30-2019, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tighe View Post
It's been several years since I've purchased new equipment and I'm getting a serious itch to upgrade my current 5.1 system. It's used for both movies and music. I'd be looking to get the biggest noticeable difference for money spent and need to keep it under $1,000. I'm open to any and all suggestions. The three upgrades I'm considering are as follows.


Better sub (think SVS PB2000 or HSU VTF-3 MK5).

A 2 or 3 channel amp for the mains/center channel.

A pair of bookshelf speakers to go 7.1.

Current Equipment

Receiver = Marantz SR6006 (8-ohm 2 channels driven = 110w) (8-ohm 5 to 7 channels driven = 73ish w)
Main speakers = Polk RTi10 (8-ohm / 89 sensitivity / handles up to 300w)
Center Channel = Polk CSi5 (8-ohm / 90 sensitivity / handles up to 200w)
Rear Surrounds = Polk FXi3 (8-ohm / 88 sensitivity / handles up to 150w / dipole/bipole)
Sub = PSW505 (12in / 300w RMS / 460w peak? / 28-125Hz frequency response)

Of just the 3 upgrades you listed I'd upgrade your sub. But what I'd recommend is upgrade your fronts and center first then your sub. That will give you the biggest overall improvement in sound quality.

ADS L710 / PSB Alpha B / HIFIMAN HE400i / Martin Logan Dynamo 300 Sub
NAD 720Bee / Schiit Modi 3 / Yamaha CD-S300 / XBOX One X
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post #3 of 26 Old 10-30-2019, 09:27 AM
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What's lacking from the existing equipment, in YOUR opinion? Looks pretty decent as is.

Upgrading and just spending a $1000 budget without reason is senseless IMO.



What are your thoughts about what's missing? Then suggestions will follow.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #4 of 26 Old 10-30-2019, 10:59 AM
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post pics, info, about the room and other environmental concerns

also, for a more sure footed beginning,

and since you'll need it even more once new toys are purchased,

get REW and the calibrated mike

and find out the system is / is not doing

that's only about $100 or so

leave now, while you can
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post #5 of 26 Old 10-30-2019, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
leave now, while you can




If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #6 of 26 Old 10-30-2019, 12:15 PM
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^ an oblique reference to
the rabbit hole like nature of our chosen addiction

a common post for questions like the OP

https://tenor.com/search/alice-down-...bbit-hole-gifs

plenty of great help and humor at AVS
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post #7 of 26 Old 10-30-2019, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, I completely forgot to state my current room is 1366 cubic feet and has wood flooring. It's 13'6"L x 13'6"W with a 7'6" ceiling.



To me, it doesn't quite get loud enough for music. I actually blew both tweeters once by going above zero (lesson learned haha). It also lacks that "feel it in the chest" effect. It seems plenty loud enough to me at anything from -10 to 0 for movies.



I'm not certain even a 300wpc amp would make a noticeable difference in loudness and even budget amps in that range seem to be $1500-$2000. Which is why I'm leaning towards the sub and better bass.



REW is a great suggestion and I've been meaning to give it a try. Thank you folks for all the replies.

Last edited by Tighe; 10-31-2019 at 05:47 PM.
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post #8 of 26 Old 10-31-2019, 02:38 PM
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@Tighe

DUDE!

1500 ft^2 ?

by 8' (?) ceiling

that's 12K ft^3!!!

I'm using 5 x 18's for about 5K ft^3

do we need some re-calculation here?

maybe a pic with some dimensions for the current set up?

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post #9 of 26 Old 10-31-2019, 02:49 PM
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Dimensions that equal 1,500 sq2 (rounded to 2 digits)

38.73 ft x 38.73 ft
34.86 ft x 43.03 ft
30.98 ft x 48.42 ft
27.11 ft x 55.33 ft
23.24 ft x 64.54 ft
19.36 ft x 77.48 ft
15.49 ft x 96.84 ft
11.62 ft x 129.09 ft
7.75 ft x 193.55 ft
1,500 square feet is equal to 0.03444 acres



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #10 of 26 Old 10-31-2019, 03:07 PM
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^
I like option 9 and I'm not even a bowler . .

and option 1 was my entire house before the addition

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post #11 of 26 Old 10-31-2019, 03:43 PM
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A bowling lane is 42 inches wide and 60 feet long, with the length being measured from the foul line to the head pin.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
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post #12 of 26 Old 10-31-2019, 03:49 PM
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^

but , but, but

This IS AVS

and in that spirit,

now a word or 2 from the OP

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post #13 of 26 Old 10-31-2019, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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You guys crack me up! I typed square feet while what I meant was cubic feet. I've edited my post to state the following: "my current room is 1366 cubic feet and has wood flooring. It's 13'6"L x 13'6"W with a 7'6" ceiling".
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post #14 of 26 Old 11-01-2019, 03:24 PM
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most will agree,
a square room is a huge challenge, more so than "normal", whatever that means
IMO this in itself ,
for an advised understood path of upgrade,

REW first. get the tutorial. visit the thread

your speakers are probably very capable ,
the real problem is the room and 1 lonely sub . . .

Audi multiEQXT leaves good room for a major plunge into speaker and multiple sub placement/integration . .
how much floor space, footprint, might you have for 2 (or more) (of course!)capable DIY subs?

i mention DIY because of

readily available info/plans /support
for being able to maximize ROI > substantial woofage upgrade for the time and effort,

sure, you'll need an amp for the subs, but with a budget of $1K, mol,

you can get some serious long term improvements

as you seem to have no current interest in ATMOS, the avr isn't a roadblock

still, a pic/ any kind of drawing of how things are currently placed also illuminating

while musing over this,
visit the VBBS thread and build in the DIY section- smart , smart stuff
cruise over to parts express and check out some other stuff

and think of selling the 505

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post #15 of 26 Old 11-02-2019, 05:43 AM
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My gut reaction was just to suggest REW for measuring and an SVS SB3000 sub. It's $1,000 in the black ash finish - serious bang for the buck. Clean tight bass can do wonders. Seeing farther down in the threads that you have a square room however that would just be a start. I think you will need at least 2 subs to help balance out your bass in that space even if you go with 2 lower cost subs to stay within your budget.

I'll second the calibrated Umik and REW. You need to see what's actually happening in your room and experiment with placement and tweaks before you buy anything else. This is you biggest bang for the buck investment. I believe I paid $129 for the Umik and REW is freeware but donations are appreciated.

This is not sexy, fun or cheap but room treatments will probably make the next biggest difference for you. Unless carefully set up and treated you're probably not hearing the potential of your existing gear. Until you address the room I would question if/how much you would benefit from an amp for the front 3 other than a few more db in volume. Doubling of power gives you an additional 3 db of headroom IIRC. Well chosen room treatments will may eliminate issues (reflections/cancellations etc) and clean up the sound to the point you no longer feel lacking you're lacking volume. A better or dual subs may help in this area as well.

I see your Marantz has Audyssey xt - not XT32 which eq's the sub channel. You might want to consider a receiver that offers some sort of bass eq but I would not make this my highest priority.

I'd prioritize in this order:
1. Umik mic and REW - experiment with placement of existing speakers & sub for best results
2. Room treatments - if you have the stomach for it probably the most impact on your sound
3. Dual subs - on a raised wood floor you may also want isolation feet or platforms - check out SVS or Auralex etc
4. Receiver/proc with bass EQ - if you feel it's lacking after 1-3.

Last edited by Artzilla; 11-02-2019 at 05:47 AM.
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post #16 of 26 Old 11-02-2019, 01:27 PM
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No doubt we've given the OP much to do to consider and prioritize . .
that's why he is here with questions

REW for sure- it's that fundamental

without a stated preference for listening / viewing / usage / SAF /WAF/ ? / preferences

it's probably better to go for the more optimized inroom response, subs being next

2 VBBS subs in that room, with a NX3000dsp, could be almost maxed out and still within budget
and REW with the dsp will provide , given the effort, better overall EQ than just even XT32 and Sub EQ

room treatments are a whole 'nother branch of the rabbit hole after REW shows more details of in room response- ringing and such
and not everybody in a household can get on board with changs in "decor'
and buying panels is real commitment of $
thick curtains, first point reflection panels, corner bass traps- can be done very cost effectively

HTH
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post #17 of 26 Old 11-02-2019, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you all for the in depth input. I've been kicking around the idea of messing with REW for a year or to but I've been too lazy to follow through. You've twisted my arm and will buy the recommended mic and research how to use REW effectively.



A receiver with XT32 equalization, ATMOS, 4K/HDR passthrough certainly would be nice.


I definitely have the room for two subs. I was just focused on achieving the lowest frequency possible for the money. And it's my understanding that a second sub helps achieve a flatter response rather than lower frequency. Maybe it's time I change my mindset on that one.



You've certainly given me several things to mull over and I thank you for pushing me further down the rabbit hole haha
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post #18 of 26 Old 11-02-2019, 03:33 PM
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spending other peoples money
a long tradition at AVS
and proudly so . . .

DENON
AVR-X3500H 7.2-Ch x 105 Watts A/V Receiver w/HEOS-$500

Behringer NX3000D Power Amplifier with DSP-$400+

2 x of the PA460's for VBBS Build $200

actual materials to build the 2 subs - look at the cut sheets in the thread

and the mike for REW $100-ish

sell the 505 and old AVR

feasibility lurks . . . .

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L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS V2, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x 6000DSP
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post #19 of 26 Old 11-02-2019, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
spending other peoples money
a long tradition at AVS
and proudly so . . .

DENON
AVR-X3500H 7.2-Ch x 105 Watts A/V Receiver w/HEOS-$500

Behringer NX3000D Power Amplifier with DSP-$400+

2 x of the PA460's for VBBS Build $200

actual materials to build the 2 subs - look at the cut sheets in the thread

and the mike for REW $100-ish

sell the 505 and old AVR

feasibility lurks . . . .

That would be a serious sub setup! I'll certainly look into it.



Funny you mention the Denon X3500H as my choice would be between that and the Marantz SR6013. Not certain IMAX enhanced (which I don't care about at this time) and the ability to go 5.2.4 vs 5.2.2 ATMOS is worth the extra $300 for the Marantz though.


Thank you again for taking the time to write all your replies..
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I definitely have the room for two subs. I was just focused on achieving the lowest frequency possible for the money. And it's my understanding that a second sub helps achieve a flatter response rather than lower frequency. Maybe it's time I change my mindset on that one.



You are correct. A second sub would not give you lower extension unless you are sitting in a null for the lowest frequencies and the second sub filled that void. Experiment with placement of your existing sub when you get REW before you make any big $ decisions. As often touted here even small movements (inches) can have significant impact on your results. If however you really want to dig deep a ported sub is probably a better choice than sealed as I suggested.
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post #21 of 26 Old 11-03-2019, 12:55 PM
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it depends . .
of course, on placement of all in the room elements,

in my 10x 10 ish mancave,
while I can run 5.3.4 for ATMOS
and the demos are a delight for being nominally dialed in,
but for much of my music,
an upmix into Neo:X for 5.3 2, using just the high fronts does get it on,
front highs as a through various means to end up on-wall
mine are on full motion mounts #3411 at monoprice, iirc

your seating isn't against the back wall, is it?

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post #22 of 26 Old 11-09-2019, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
it depends . .
of course, on placement of all in the room elements,

in my 10x 10 ish mancave,
while I can run 5.3.4 for ATMOS
and the demos are a delight for being nominally dialed in,
but for much of my music,
an upmix into Neo:X for 5.3 2, using just the high fronts does get it on,
front highs as a through various means to end up on-wall
mine are on full motion mounts #3411 at monoprice, iirc

your seating isn't against the back wall, is it?

Unfortunately, there is nothing ideal about this room for home theater and the couch is against the back wall.

The surrounds are in bipole mode on the back wall 1.5ft above my head.

I'm considering pulling the couch out 2ft from the wall, and buying bookshelf speakers to put on stands in the back corners of the room, facing the MLP. I believe that setup will be necessary for proper ATMOS applications.

The UMIK-1 arrived so this weekends agenda is to install and play with REW.
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tighe View Post
I'd be looking to get the biggest noticeable difference for money spent and need to keep it under $1,000.

6-12 pcs Steico Flex 120 mm cost only ~$100 and maybe another $150 for the wooden frames and textile covers.
Too bad that only makes less than 250 and will sound way better than spending 5.000 on new equipment.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tighe View Post
And it's my understanding that a second sub helps achieve a flatter response rather than lower frequency.
Good you start with measuring. That's how intelligent men do it!

Be aware that multiple subs cannot overcome the problem of the energy that is being injected into the room's air and being reflected between the walls. Even at a local cancellation, the energy of the wave is still in the room until it slowly vanishes - contrary to the effect of absorption, which sucks the energy out of the air and turns it into heat in the absorbing material and prevents it from being reflected further. It sounds very different if bass becomes flattened thanks to absorption or if the frequency response is being flattened with even more energy injected into the room from different locations with multiple subs.

Everyone underestimates how adequate bass absorption can reduce the modal interference effects on the bass. Until they hear it. For example if there is a significant bass hole at the MLP in the 60 - 80 Hz range, which is quite common among typical room sizes, it's not difficult to reduce peak-valleys by 6 dB with trapping in just one corner.
BUT: not only the frequency response becomes flatter. Even more important than the frequency response is the time domain response. The bass response in the time domain becomes shortened. And that increases the impulsive behaviour of the soundsystem's bass.

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post #25 of 26 Old 11-10-2019, 11:41 AM
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bottom line-
measure first

post in the REW thread, use the tutorials,
be patient

it took me number of years to finally get a computer that didn't hassel me when using ASIO4ALl

don't worry about bass traps yet

your room isn't biG ENOUGH TO ACCOMODAATE the depth of fiber that might be effective

visit Acoustic Fields website

many vids, but great presentation of theory and application

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SUBMAXIMUS V2, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x 6000DSP
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post #26 of 26 Old 11-11-2019, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
bottom line-
measure first

post in the REW thread, use the tutorials,
be patient

it took me number of years to finally get a computer that didn't hassel me when using ASIO4ALl

I spent most of the day Sunday setting it up. I don't have a laptop so I have to bring my full tower gaming rig to the living room, haha. You're right, ASIO4 didn't want to play nice at first. And REW itself, won't stay stable for me. After a while the interface goes wonky and becomes unusable. But that's for another post in the REW section. Thanks again :-)

TV: Vizio P65-F1 -Receiver: Marantz SR6013 - Mains: Polk RTi10 - Center: Polk CSi5 - Surrounds: Polk f/xi3 dipole/bipole - Atmos front .2: Klipsch R-41SA - Sub: Polk PSW505 - Oppo BDP-93 - Nvidia Shield Pro 2019
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