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post #331 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
He's custodian (licenses) or owns these priceless historical master tapes and you really think he has no idea what happens after he acquires them? Seriously? Of the new material he records and releases, everything on high quality vinyl and then CD, SACD, RtoR, stream, etc., you seriously think he doesn't know exactly what goes on? I find that incredible.
I find it incredible you think a restaurant owner would know how much salt was in the marinara sauce made on October 10th, 2019. You think they write that down?

You have provided no evidence of flat transfers from these master tapes in the first place so worrying about what he does or does not know is irrelevant.
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post #332 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 08:47 PM
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I find it incredible you think a restaurant owner would know how much salt was in the marinara sauce made on October 10th, 2019. You think they write that down?

You have provided no evidence of flat transfers from these master tapes in the first place so worrying about what he does or does not know is irrelevant.
"Plus the source of your statement, as I underrstand it, is a record store: "acousticssounds". Not exactly a definitive, trusted source that was on hand at the actual event."

^^^^^ it was your statement ^^^^^

And even more incredible is that you as a retail stereo store salesman know more about Chad's business than he does himself.
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post #333 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 08:48 PM
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Also the cutting lathe technician is not necessarily the mastering engineer and he/she may additionally apply things such as an EE, elliptical equalizer, high frequency compression/limiting for cutting head safety, and vertical modulation limiters, etc..
And here it is, more or less, from a Grammy Award-winning mastering engineer, James Cruz:

"Let’s start with a very brief overview of how records are cut. When a piece of program enters the cutting chain, it gets split to two different places. One split goes to a level attenuator, some filters, an elliptical equalizer, and ends at a very rudimentary and basic computer. The computer tells the lathe how far apart to put the grooves. The second goes to the attenuator, the filters, elliptical equalizer, a high frequency limiter, then the cutter head, which cuts the actual groove in the record."

- "James Cruz is a Grammy Award-winning mastering engineer and owner of Zeitgeist Sound Studios in Long Island City, NY. He has worked on projects for artists like OutKast, Wu-Tang Clan, Pearl Jam, Metallica, Calle 13, and more. "

Source: Why CDs Sound Better Than Vinyl
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post #334 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 08:50 PM
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And custodian of those master tapes is just a little different and slightly more important than table salt.
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post #335 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
"Plus the source of your statement, as I underrstand it, is a record store: "acousticssounds". Not exactly a definitive, trusted source that was on hand at the actual event."

^^^^^ it was your statement ^^^^^
And I stand by it, not that he claimed it was a flat transfer from the master in the first place. All he said was that the source wasn't a copy of the original master tape (as is not uncommon) but rather was indeed the original master tape.

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post #336 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
And here it is, more or less, from a Grammy Award-winning mastering engineer, James Cruz:

"Let’s start with a very brief overview of how records are cut. When a piece of program enters the cutting chain, it gets split to two different places. One split goes to a level attenuator, some filters, an elliptical equalizer, and ends at a very rudimentary and basic computer. The computer tells the lathe how far apart to put the grooves. The second goes to the attenuator, the filters, elliptical equalizer, a high frequency limiter, then the cutter head, which cuts the actual groove in the record."

- "James Cruz is a Grammy Award-winning mastering engineer and owner of Zeitgeist Sound Studios in Long Island City, NY. He has worked on projects for artists like OutKast, Wu-Tang Clan, Pearl Jam, Metallica, Calle 13, and more. "

Source: Why CDs Sound Better Than Vinyl
So goal posts move again and we're back to litigating CDs v LPs. Not that we haven't done that a few times in the past, right?

You haven't read any of my sources so screw it if you think I'm going to read any of yours.
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post #337 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
And custodian of those master tapes is just a little different and slightly more important than table salt.


Still no evidence, just your lay interpretation through a filter that knows nothing about mixing mastering. Zero.


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post #338 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 08:57 PM
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And I stand by it, not that he claimed it was a flat master in the first place. All he said was that the source wasn't a copy of the original master tape (as is not uncommon) but rather was indeed the original master tape.
Yes, he generally has 1st gen master tapes (when available)

All he said was

"The CD

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/84...id_Stereo_SACD

"Miles Davis Kind of Blue on numbered limited edition Hybrid SACD from Mobile Fidelity
Best-selling album in jazz history; mastered from the original master tapes"


The LP

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/87...Vinyl_Box_Sets

"Miles Davis Kind of Blue on numbered limited edition 180-gram 45 RPM double LP box set from Mobile Fidelity
Best-selling album in jazz history; mastered from the original master tapes."



So your point, other than trying to get this thread closed?
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post #339 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Yes, he generally has 1st gen master tapes (when available)



All he said was



"The CD



http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/84...id_Stereo_SACD



"Miles Davis Kind of Blue on numbered limited edition Hybrid SACD from Mobile Fidelity

Best-selling album in jazz history; mastered from the original master tapes"




The LP



http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/87...Vinyl_Box_Sets



"Miles Davis Kind of Blue on numbered limited edition 180-gram 45 RPM double LP box set from Mobile Fidelity

Best-selling album in jazz history; mastered from the original master tapes."






So your point, other than trying to get this thread closed?


When you don’t understand what “mastered from original tapes” entails, you can apply any definition to it you like. Which you’ve done.

Take a break from the placebophile nonsense and actually learn how this stuff works.


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post #340 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 09:05 PM
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So goal posts move again and we're back to litigating CDs v LPs..
Nope. CD goes through none of those steps listed by the Grammy award-winning mastering engineer in his description of how LPs are made, so even if we pretend for the moment that LPs somehow provide "100% perfect replication of the signal sent to the grooves when we play them back", it proves the sound itself is not the same as CD because of all those added processes he (and I) mentioned which only occurs for LPs, not CDs.
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post #341 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Yes, he generally has 1st gen master tapes (when available)

All he said was

"The CD

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/84...id_Stereo_SACD

"Miles Davis Kind of Blue on numbered limited edition Hybrid SACD from Mobile Fidelity
Best-selling album in jazz history; mastered from the original master tapes"


The LP

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/87...Vinyl_Box_Sets

"Miles Davis Kind of Blue on numbered limited edition 180-gram 45 RPM double LP box set from Mobile Fidelity
Best-selling album in jazz history; mastered from the original master tapes."



So your point, other than trying to get this thread closed?
Show me where it states the sound from the master tape they used never went through any additional processes before it hit the cutting head. I can't find it.
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post #342 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 09:12 PM
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And I stand by it, not that he claimed it was a flat master in the first place. All he said was that the source wasn't a copy of the original master tape (as is not uncommon) but rather was indeed the original master tape.
Tell you what, why don't you PM me your phone number and I'll see if I can get him to call you. Or he's at all the big audio shows so if you're going to the rescheduled AXPONA (now Aug 7-9) I'll be happy to introduce you and you can ask him whatever you want.
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post #343 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 09:12 PM
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Show me where it states the sound from the master tape they used never went through any additional processes before it hit the cutting head. I can't find it.
See my previous post.
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post #344 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 09:16 PM
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I don't give out my personal private phone number on the web to people I don't know.
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post #345 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 09:17 PM
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Nope. CD goes through none of those steps listed by the Grammy award-winning mastering engineer in his description of how LPs are made, so even if we pretend for the moment that LPs somehow provide "100% perfect replication of the signal sent to the grooves when we play them back", it proves the sound itself is not the same as CD because of all those added processes he (and I) mentioned which only occurs for LPs, not CDs.
Funny, those four SACDs I listed … I said sound at least as good or better than the LP. Not true with many or any other CDs that I can think of (subjectivist disclaimer: IMO, to me, in my system, with my electronics, on that day, in that room, with my mid-late 70 yr old ears)
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post #346 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 09:18 PM
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See my previous post.


I have. I didn’t see evidence of your claims.


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post #347 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 09:18 PM
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I don't give out my personal private phone number on the web to people I don't know.
Okay, I'll be happy to introduce you to him at AXPONA, then ask whatever you wish.

edit: Don't get your hopes up too much for AXPONA 2020, period. I think it will end up getting cancelled entirely.

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post #348 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post

All he said was

"The CD

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/84...id_Stereo_SACD

"Miles Davis Kind of Blue on numbered limited edition Hybrid SACD from Mobile Fidelity
Best-selling album in jazz history; mastered from the original master tapes"

I hope he's wrong. We discovered decades later the master tape machine in 1959 was off speed for side A by ~1.25%, so for years we've been hearing it at the wrong speed and pitch! It was released on CD, twice, at the wrong speed and this error was only corrected in 1992 by using the backup tape (a copy).

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post #349 of 469 Old 03-09-2020, 09:42 PM
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I hope he's wrong. We discovered decades later the master tape machine in 1959 was off speed for side A by ~1.25%, so for years we've been hearing it at the wrong speed and pitch! It was released on CD twice at the wrong speed and this error was only corrected in 1992.
He did Duke's Masterpieces from 1950 too, but he also does plenty of new material. He's trying to record many or most of the elderly blues artists before it's too late, such as the Bobby Rush vid I posted.

I would really like to see him record 87 yr old John Mayall, who still tours as much as he did 50 years ago. At age 87, he's not going to last forever.
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post #350 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 01:17 AM
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So if synergy doesn't exist then what is it really? Just a psychological concept? Isn't it just a fancy word for "preference"? After all, if a particular combo of gear works great for one person the combined effect is said to be "synergistic", for another it may not be the case, so the effects of synergy, if such a thing or concept exists, is not necessarily transferable.

So it's psychological, or partly psychological and maybe partly audible, or maybe not? My brain hurts just thinking about it.
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post #351 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 03:03 AM
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So if synergy doesn't exist then what is it really? Just a psychological concept? Isn't it just a fancy word for "preference"? After all, if a particular combo of gear works great for one person the combined effect is said to be "synergistic", for another it may not be the case, so the effects of synergy, if such a thing or concept exists, is not necessarily transferable.

So it's psychological, or partly psychological and maybe partly audible, or maybe not? My brain hurts just thinking about it.
Yes, I think so. I think of it more as something similar to cartridge compliance as it relates to tonearm mass.
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post #352 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 07:45 AM
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System Synergy, Fact or Fiction

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Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Funny, those four SACDs I listed … I said sound at least as good or better than the LP. Not true with many or any other CDs that I can think of (subjectivist disclaimer: IMO, to me, in my system, with my electronics, on that day, in that room, with my mid-late 70 yr old ears)


Yeah, what’s funny is that your “subjectivist disclaimer” isn’t evidence. Anecdotal isn’t data. It’s also not purely “listening subjective” if done in a sighted test, among other controls likely lacking.


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post #353 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 07:46 AM
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Yes, I think so. I think of it more as something similar to cartridge compliance as it relates to tonearm mass.


In other words a Rube Goldberg tone control.


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post #354 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 08:24 AM
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So if synergy doesn't exist then what is it really? Just a psychological concept? Isn't it just a fancy word for "preference"? After all, if a particular combo of gear works great for one person the combined effect is said to be "synergistic", for another it may not be the case, so the effects of synergy, if such a thing or concept exists, is not necessarily transferable.



So it's psychological, or partly psychological and maybe partly audible, or maybe not? My brain hurts just thinking about it.


There’s other variables at play. A combination of components with linear SOTA transparency will nearly always yield no change. A combination of colored components will yield a summation of their coloration. Or a direct sum of their parts, so by definition not synergy. Audio reproduction is the product of empirical cold physical science. There’s no secret sauces which when blended do anything they wouldn’t do alone but without the other.

That said there are things and practices which will color fidelity nearly always, and approaches which will change presentation with large measured effects. Those effects should always take a front seat to those things which nearly never change fidelity or at least shouldn’t, and those which do provide coloration but do so subtlety.

The following have a gargantuan impact on listening quality and or accuracy of reproduction:

1. Decisions made in studio recording mastering which will have incredible variation from track/album/artist.
2. The room you pick, it’s furnishings and or treatments.
3. The speakers you pick, and their placement.
4. The listening position you pick.

Whatever other subtle coloration some audio jewelry puts on their gear will both pale in comparison and never be able to be universally beneficial to compensate for each of the above.

Moreover if some combination of colored components are found preferred it would only be when each of the above four are constant, once one changes any benefit of a combined effect is lost. Assuming that the coloration is baked in and unadjustable it’s effect simply can’t be universally beneficial while only being beneficial in a single instance, if ever.

So, synergy as typically presented in audio reproduction is a fantasy marketing approach used to thin your wallet. There are certainly empirically measured reasons for needing to match certain components; maybe needed power for an amp to play a certain volume. Or maybe a new functionality on an AVR. Yet, if we’re honest, that’s nearly never what the audio plcebophile is referring to when they mention “synergy.”


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post #355 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
So if synergy doesn't exist then what is it really? Just a psychological concept? Isn't it just a fancy word for "preference"? After all, if a particular combo of gear works great for one person the combined effect is said to be "synergistic", for another it may not be the case, so the effects of synergy, if such a thing or concept exists, is not necessarily transferable.

So it's psychological, or partly psychological and maybe partly audible, or maybe not? My brain hurts just thinking about it.
I think how I would define synergy is "picking components that have sufficient power to work well together without adjustment."

If you look at all the (fake) signal chains I posted above, all of them can sound the same (sans different speakers), but they all don't have the same level of performance (some may have a more limited...sweet spot?). However, depending on your requirements (which depends on a lot of things, personal preference but one) you may be better off selecting one over another so you don't have to add additional components (e.g., attenuators) or lack power.

I also feel that most of this is caused by the consumer industry, and probably on purpose. In the pro industry, most things can be configured (gains, sensitivity, etc) so the signal chain can be optimized programatically. This isn't the case with most consumer stuff, it's set out of the box and if you need to adjust you must do so through external means. If the pieces you chose don't "synergize" you're leaving performance on the table (even moreso if you don't know how to adjust through external means).
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I think how I would define synergy is "picking components that have sufficient power to work well together without adjustment."



That’s fine if you want to make up a new definition of the word synergy.




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post #357 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
I think how I would define synergy is "picking components that have sufficient power to work well together without adjustment."

If you look at all the (fake) signal chains I posted above, all of them can sound the same (sans different speakers), but they all don't have the same level of performance (some may have a more limited...sweet spot?). However, depending on your requirements (which depends on a lot of things, personal preference but one) you may be better off selecting one over another so you don't have to add additional components (e.g., attenuators) or lack power.

I also feel that most of this is caused by the consumer industry, and probably on purpose. In the pro industry, most things can be configured (gains, sensitivity, etc) so the signal chain can be optimized programatically. This isn't the case with most consumer stuff, it's set out of the box and if you need to adjust you must do so through external means. If the pieces you chose don't "synergize" you're leaving performance on the table (even moreso if you don't know how to adjust through external means).
The way synergy is used in audiophile circles is very different to how you are using it. Take a "neutral" sounding speaker and pair it with a silver cable or some combination of cables, or some special amp, brand/model is irrelevant here, but specific amps will "synergize" better with certain speakers, and the same goes for DAC's, etc, etc, etc.

It sounds to me like "synergy" here is just an exercise in wheel-spinning. Just try another DAC combination, or cable or, or, or and the overall combined effect will be absolutely magical etc.

That is what I hear when I see audiophiles using the word.
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post #358 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 10:14 AM
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So if synergy doesn't exist then what is it really? Just a psychological concept? Isn't it just a fancy word for "preference"?
The reason you "prefer" buying the licorice stick on top, supposedly because it is "a better value for the same money" over the one on the bottom isn't because of your "preference", it is because of your imagination, faulty perception, and steadfast refusal to employ controls to preclude the impact of external bias:



In truth there is no difference in the straight segment's length. It is just an illusion due to bias.

Luckily for the snake oil audio peddlers out there, no amount of explaining this to consumers seems to work. "The bass sounds bigger because my power cord is fatter!"
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Last edited by m. zillch; 03-10-2020 at 10:22 AM.
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post #359 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan Mire View Post
The way synergy is used in audiophile circles is very different to how you are using it. Take a "neutral" sounding speaker and pair it with a silver cable or some combination of cables, or some special amp, brand/model is irrelevant here, but specific amps will "synergize" better with certain speakers, and the same goes for DAC's, etc, etc, etc.

It sounds to me like "synergy" here is just an exercise in wheel-spinning. Just try another DAC combination, or cable or, or, or and the overall combined effect will be absolutely magical etc.

That is what I hear when I see audiophiles using the word.
Or given the load that certain types of speakers present, such as a low impedance, capacitive load ..... what I have downstairs or maybe something such as Magneplanar, Apogees, Dayton Wrights, Sound Labs, Quads, Rogers etc., some amps can drive them and most don't do so well. There can be synergy with certain amps for certain speakers or types of speakers.

For the lucky buyer, try driving this with your favorite Best Buy 'run of the mill' AVR
https://www.ebay.com/i/163743108948?...YaAuOdEALw_wcB

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post #360 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 11:22 AM
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Did anyone ever say "All amps have the same power"?
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