System Synergy, Fact or Fiction - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 90Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #391 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 02:37 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,983
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked: 2764
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
What's also weird is your 12 second into Murmur peak isn't even all that large. There are many other areas that look way more (potentially) problematic. I don't get it. [And it sounds fine on all my DACs but I don't have your speakers.]
Well, piano is very very difficult to get 'right', and that's the worst IIRC, but not the only piece that had the issue. I think there was an Einauldi piece that also did it. I looked and couldn't find the others. I also tried Murmur with the Maggies in this system and it wasn't noticeable much at all if any.

It's similar to when I really went arse deep into the high-end in the 90s, in that if I wanted to compare, it was the ML Statements v the Soundlab A1s, but most everything sounded the same with the Maggie MGIIIa. Now, by that time, I'd sold the Tympani IVa s to get the Statements to have the room and the money. Maybe with the much bigger IVa I would have heard some difference? With the Soundlabs and the Statements, there was more difference between the VTL300s and the Classic 150s than there was between the two pairs of ESLs, but with the Maggies, it pretty much sounded the same. And its not just panel size that led to the issues as the CLSs were pretty brutal too with something they didn't like.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	CLS in RPV.jpg
Views:	24
Size:	285.9 KB
ID:	2696060  
Scotth3886 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #392 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 02:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,983
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked: 2764
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
What's also weird is your 12 second into Murmur peak you've gripped about before isn't even all that large. There are many other areas that look way more (potentially) problematic [see the clipping indication graph under the main one]. I don't get it. [And it sounds fine on all my DACs, but I don't have your speakers.]
Btw, it was all through that piece, but the first one at about 12 sec in was a shocker and after that I was hiding under a pillow. But yes, you're correct, that entire piece was a mess.
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #393 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 08:48 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,983
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked: 2764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
What else would you do with a 1/4 million bucks that weighs 500 pounds ea.

https://youtu.be/jyrjhv1pjac
What a cute piece of kit. Even double power down to 2 ohms for 6,000w

"With its 5.5-kilowatt power supply feeding roughly 100 output devices, the Relentless Monoblock easily delivers 1,500 watts into 8 ohms—and when connected to a 220-volt outlet, it doubles its output to 3,000 watts into 4 ohms and 6,000 watts into 2 ohms, all while maintaining the same musical composure it offers at a mere 1 watt."

https://www.dandagostino.com/product...-monoblock.php


Last edited by Scotth3886; 03-10-2020 at 08:52 PM.
Scotth3886 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #394 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 08:56 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 15,134
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6766 Post(s)
Liked: 4980
^ Does the Jules Verne, green submarine light in the front make the sound more better and stuff?
Out-Of-Phase likes this.
m. zillch is offline  
post #395 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 09:00 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,983
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked: 2764
Although if I were to go that kind of money, I'd probably still go VAC

Scotth3886 is offline  
post #396 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 09:03 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 15,134
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6766 Post(s)
Liked: 4980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I bet that amp's top plate costs more than all my stereo system components I've ever owned, combined.
m. zillch is offline  
post #397 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 09:06 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,983
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked: 2764
Although, frankly, I'd probably stop short the VAC's $80,000 phonostage



Scotth3886 is offline  
post #398 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 09:08 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,983
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked: 2764
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I bet that amp's top plate costs more than all my stereo system components I've ever owned, combined.
And I thought my ARC Classic 150s were such hot chit in the mid 90s. My VTL 300s were pretty ugly or utilitarian as some might say.
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #399 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 09:09 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,983
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked: 2764
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
^ Does the Jules Verne, green submarine light in the front make the sound more better and stuff?
Yes, moar gooder !!!
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #400 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 09:20 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 15,134
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6766 Post(s)
Liked: 4980
This technology is so old they didn't even have color.
m. zillch is offline  
post #401 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 09:26 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,983
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked: 2764
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
This technology is so old they didn't even have color.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA_tgIygvNo
Ain't it wonderful?

Scotth3886 is offline  
post #402 of 469 Old 03-10-2020, 09:28 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
m. zillch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 15,134
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6766 Post(s)
Liked: 4980
They knew about the future though, including talking motion pictures, radar, television, and this little wonder:
m. zillch is offline  
post #403 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 07:31 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
ClawAndTalon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Atlanta, GA.
Posts: 1,317
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 655 Post(s)
Liked: 494
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
They knew about the future though, including talking motion pictures, radar, television, and this little wonder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9xUQWo4vN0


It’s quite amazing how so many demand that audio reproduction be more expensive and difficult than need be, while confirming their exercise with the absurd and unfounded.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



"Most theories on audio and audio reproduction will be proven wrong only when the laws of physics change."
ClawAndTalon is offline  
post #404 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 08:22 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 20,629
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2926 Post(s)
Liked: 2995
That's synergy for ya!



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is online now  
post #405 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 08:30 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,983
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked: 2764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
That's synergy for ya!
I'm all for looking for synergy between components, but I'm just not willing to pay all that much for it anymore.
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #406 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DreamWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Dirty South Jersey
Posts: 2,842
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1452 Post(s)
Liked: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I'm all for looking for synergy between components, but I'm just not willing to pay all that much for it anymore.
Good thing it's pretty much unnecessary!

Here's a few interesting points:

Driver distortion increases as excursion increases -- less movement = "cleaner".

To increase driver excursion, one must increase power.

To decrease driver excursion one must: make the driver larger, use "physical" amplification (horns / waveguides), add more drivers.

Then you have the "first watt" folks with speakers so insensitive and so hard to drive that the "first watt" is "useless" claiming how much it matters that the "first watt" be the "best watt".

It's so ridiculous!

IMO, the best sound comes from well engineered systems and rooms. If one gets there without "engineering" the system then either they got lucky or the school of hard knocks eventually pounded something useful into their thick skull (that could've been learned more quickly through learning the actual underlying science). If I'm being honest, in my case, it's a bit of both (and I'm still assuming my system sounds any good to anyone but me, lol).
CharlesJ likes this.
DreamWarrior is offline  
post #407 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 11:29 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 20,629
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2926 Post(s)
Liked: 2995
Things you read and learn here are ...breathtaking.



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is online now  
post #408 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 11:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CharlesJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,037
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 927 Post(s)
Liked: 715
Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
^ Does the Jules Verne, green submarine light in the front make the sound more better and stuff?
At least if not much more better.
CharlesJ is offline  
post #409 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 11:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
CharlesJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,037
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 927 Post(s)
Liked: 715
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
Things you read and learn here are ...breathtaking.
Ok. now you can resume breathing.
CharlesJ is offline  
post #410 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 11:39 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,983
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked: 2764
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
At least if not much more better.
No question, moar gooder.
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #411 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 11:42 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,983
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked: 2764
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
Good thing it's pretty much unnecessary!

Here's a few interesting points:

Driver distortion increases as excursion increases -- less movement = "cleaner".

To increase driver excursion, one must increase power.

To decrease driver excursion one must: make the driver larger, use "physical" amplification (horns / waveguides), add more drivers.

Then you have the "first watt" folks with speakers so insensitive and so hard to drive that the "first watt" is "useless" claiming how much it matters that the "first watt" be the "best watt".

It's so ridiculous!

IMO, the best sound comes from well engineered systems and rooms. If one gets there without "engineering" the system then either they got lucky or the school of hard knocks eventually pounded something useful into their thick skull (that could've been learned more quickly through learning the actual underlying science). If I'm being honest, in my case, it's a bit of both (and I'm still assuming my system sounds any good to anyone but me, lol).
No thanks. I'll pass.
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #412 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 11:42 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Ratman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Collingswood, N.J.
Posts: 20,629
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2926 Post(s)
Liked: 2995



If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough – Albert Einstein
Ratman is online now  
post #413 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DreamWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Dirty South Jersey
Posts: 2,842
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1452 Post(s)
Liked: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
No thanks. I'll pass.
That's fine, you can reject controlled and repeatable for "tinkering randomly" -- I'll pass on random tinkering, though. I'd much prefer a methodological means to achieving a result...you know, so I can repeat the result again and again without suffering through more "random tinkering". My hobby is listening to the music, not f'ing around indefinitely until it sounds right to me.
CruelInventions likes this.
DreamWarrior is offline  
post #414 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 12:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Scotth3886's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: New Albany, OH
Posts: 8,983
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4414 Post(s)
Liked: 2764
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWarrior View Post
That's fine, you can reject controlled and repeatable for "tinkering randomly" -- I'll pass on random tinkering, though. I'd much prefer a methodological means to achieving a result...you know, so I can repeat the result again and again without suffering through more "random tinkering". My hobby is listening to the music, not f'ing around indefinitely until it sounds right to me.
Thank you. I appreciate that.

Once the 'science' evolves to the point it can give me some answers/guidance regarding my listening priorities, I might change my ways. Until then, random tinkering is the way.

Sorta like Gerry Lemay @ HAA Min 44:00 and on.


For specifics: min 49:45, 50:25, 51:00

Last edited by Scotth3886; 03-11-2020 at 12:15 PM.
Scotth3886 is offline  
post #415 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DreamWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Dirty South Jersey
Posts: 2,842
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1452 Post(s)
Liked: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Thank you. I appreciate that.

Once the 'science' evolves to the point it can give me some answers/guidance regarding my listening priorities, I might change my ways. Until then, random tinkering is the way.

Sorta like Gerry Lemay @ HAA Min 44:00 and on.

https://youtu.be/4G03l1eyU4s?t=2599
Honestly, I hope it does "evolve", but I think it has and continues to. There are so many room sims and speaker sims and...I mean, what they can do to design venues in software is insane. But, that's not my day-job (I'd code one in a heart-beat, though, if someone wanted to pair-up). Thus, you'd have to talk to a Keith Yates-esque person to get the lowdown on existing tools that can help in this domain and if the SOA tools can account for "dimensional perception" (whatever that'd mean).

Unfortunately, most people are focused in the wrong areas to see any evolution. Like, for example, thinking amplifiers have a huge difference when modern ones do not and (even if you must believe they do, they absolutely should not). Unless, of course, it is by design, and then I'd call the amplifier an "artistic amplification tool" -- certainly not a hi-fi amplifier; this may be fine for the content creators but it is not fine, IMO, for hi-fi playback.

Regardless, "random tinkering" is most definitely not the way science works; no "random tinkerer" will ever produce a valid scientific study without removing every last bit of "randomness" from it -- that's not how science works.

For the pedantic, lol, please keep in mind the use of the word "random" here is best read as "uncontrolled".

P.S., I want to clarify that "fine for the content creators" doesn't mean I think they should use "artistic amps" to playback music in the studio. I mean if they want to include them in the recording process (e.g., hook up their guitar to something that distorts in a pleasant way) then fine! DO NOT USE IT TO LISTEN TO RECORDED MUSIC! It's not the job of an amplifier to add anything but gain to a signal. If it does anything else you're either using it wrong (e.g., overdriving it) or it belongs outside the playback chain! Moreover, if those "other things" the amp does are useful in any way then there exists a stand-alone device to do it! Fortunately, that device can at least be removed from your signal chain when you don't want it there!

Last edited by DreamWarrior; 03-11-2020 at 12:31 PM.
DreamWarrior is offline  
post #416 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 12:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
Out-Of-Phase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 538
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 399 Post(s)
Liked: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
I'm all for looking for synergy between components, but I'm just not willing to pay all that much for it anymore.
At the end of the day, it never did anything good for you anyway. Better sound? Meh.

Save your money.
Out-Of-Phase is offline  
post #417 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 12:27 PM
Advanced Member
 
Out-Of-Phase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 538
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 399 Post(s)
Liked: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Ain't it wonderful?

https://youtu.be/C3_-2fUm6y0
No.

Save your money.
Out-Of-Phase is offline  
post #418 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 12:28 PM
Advanced Member
 
Out-Of-Phase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 538
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 399 Post(s)
Liked: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
Although, frankly, I'd probably stop short the VAC's $80,000 phonostage



Ridiculous.

Save your money.
Out-Of-Phase is offline  
post #419 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 12:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
Out-Of-Phase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 538
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 399 Post(s)
Liked: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotth3886 View Post
What a cute piece of kit. Even double power down to 2 ohms for 6,000w

"With its 5.5-kilowatt power supply feeding roughly 100 output devices, the Relentless Monoblock easily delivers 1,500 watts into 8 ohms—and when connected to a 220-volt outlet, it doubles its output to 3,000 watts into 4 ohms and 6,000 watts into 2 ohms, all while maintaining the same musical composure it offers at a mere 1 watt."

https://www.dandagostino.com/product...-monoblock.php

Why? Are you going to weld in your living room?

Save your money.
Out-Of-Phase is offline  
post #420 of 469 Old 03-11-2020, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DreamWarrior's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Dirty South Jersey
Posts: 2,842
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1452 Post(s)
Liked: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by Out-Of-Phase View Post
Why? Are you going to weld in your living room?
LOL! No, we're going to hook up a six-pack of MBL 101Es in parallel so they are near impossible to drive with anything else...in a cold room so it doubles as a space-heater (don't want to waste all that inefficiency).

edit: but, seriously, I "get it"...it's like building a 1000HP car, right? I mean, no one "needs" it. The difference, however, is that I can go drive a 1000HP car to its limits either illegally on the street or legally at the right track. If there exists a speaker that requires that much power to operate properly and I owned it then I'd reevaluate my choice of speaker!

Last edited by DreamWarrior; 03-11-2020 at 12:39 PM.
DreamWarrior is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off