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post #31 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
“can 1 amp have more enjoyable harmonics/distortion than another?”

Do you think so? Why? Do you have an amp that does so, and measures as such? It appears the one you have doesn’t do so at all.
We do know that tube amps produce even-order harmonics (sometimes only under duress, sometimes by design). We also know odd-order harmonics are typical of solid-state amps when clipping. Of course, I'd prefer an amp add neither; if I felt like the program I was listening to lacked harmonics and wanted them then I'd add a (defeatable) harmonic generator to my signal chain, lol. Hummm, maybe some pre-amp company can market this as a select-able filter, it'd be super cheap and easy to do in a digital chain. Hell, maybe some of them already do, but without allowing it to be defeated because it's part of their "signature" (I wouldn't want to buy them either, for the record).
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
“the engineers that build the stuff obviously have no motivation to improve the sound on new designs.”

Improve past transparency is impossible. Marketing “improvements” to gullible audiophiles is easy.
Truth -- but there are always "geeks" that pine to spec-race. And, there are always audiophiles who pine for "pre-seasoned". Honestly, all I want is an accurate way to tell one product from the other -- I want transparency throughout my entire signal chain! If something doesn't sound right on that, I'll season it to my tastes for that program in my room for my ears with components designed to do that. I don't want it baked into my signal chain (I already have enough baked in behavior from my speakers and room -- fortunately these aren't too bad in my particular case (in my particular opinion, lol)).
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
“the ear loves 2nd order harmonics tho.”

At production we do like 2nd order harmonics of a fundamental, but at reproduction all of the sound you hear is now considered fundamental; production recorded second order fundamentals that you liked, which at replay are fundamentals. Did they not add enough? Go tell Clapton he needs a new amp. We also like a certain blend of 2nd and 3rd, so it’s way too chumpy to say you want more second at playback.
Totally agree -- and at telling the artists what to use to produce their art (don't, please, lol).
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
“the link is to show how complicated the design and weakness of measuring technique.”

No, it doesn’t, it shows the challenge in measuring. If anything it discusses why most stated specs for THD are too abridged to be useful. Which is totally true. Stop cherry picking things you think support your view, use that time to actually learn. I’m certain 90% of that paper made your eyes glaze over.
That's interesting to me. I suppose there certainly can be different "flavors" of THD. A "harmonic profile" if you will. However, if it's below the level of audibility then does it matter? Plus, we all do know that our rooms and speakers add a level of THD much greater than any "well designed" piece of electronics, right?

P.S. I hope you don't think we have beef from "that other thread" -- a lot of my recent conduct on this forum is a dash of devil's advocate combined with a touch a "struggle" designed to learn more about reproducing this awesome music thing I love. I do that by questioning -- everything! I fully expect (and want) "smarter" people to correct and inform me if they are so inclined. And, I may argue, but just because I do, please don't think it's because I don't agree....I very well may. But, I can't learn without this process. I also hope others learn, too, along the way.
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post #32 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
these 2 headphone amps sound so different its silly to think they wouldnt.
please name the "chifi" amp
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post #33 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
please name the "chifi" amp
its a loxjie p20

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post #34 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 12:35 PM
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My grandparents had a tube amp. Also a horse and buggy.
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post #35 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 12:38 PM
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somehow I think both camps/sides can be correct. depending on the parameters or lack there of.

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post #36 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
these 2 headphone amps sound so different its silly to think they wouldnt. its really enjoyable to be able to swap in/out multiple headphones and listen to different music very quickly and with minimal effort. the red amp is chifi under 100bux and the black amp is the thxaaa789 which many regard as the best in the world for 350bux
These two guitar amps sound different, its silly to think they wouldn't! It's really enjoyable to swap my guitar from one to the other and listen to my guitar's sound change with minimal effort.

Which is to say, we all know it's possible to design "crappy" amps that aren't transparent. If you want to "pre-season" your signal chain, hats off to the bull. I don't want anything doing that...it makes every bit of music I listen to sound like chit! Any little bit of distortion added to music that already has tons of spectrum just muddies it to death. The artists that created it already added all the artful distortion (and spectrum in general) that they wanted...I have no desire to add more! I sure as hell have no desire to add more without having the ability to turn it off!
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somehow I think both camps/sides can be correct. depending on the parameters or lack there of.
We can be correct -- but only one of us has the chance to reproduce the audio as it was heard in the studio. Only one of us will continue to increase that chance by changing the attitude (at least among the folks that create music) that "pre-seasoned" equipment is hi-fi. People that create music need to do it in a known environment so people that play it back have consistency. If, after that, you still want to season the content, well, then you're no different than someone who likes their TV in torch mode -- season to taste all you want. However, I'd suggest you do it with cheaper components, because amps that modify the signal don't do it in ways that are impossible to simulate through cheaper means!

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post #37 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 12:46 PM
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I had an awesome opportunity from a professional on this forum to participate in a listening test of 2 different speakers he had eq'd to match almost perfectly he said. he shared the measurements and asked me which I preferred. he wouldnt tell me which speaker was which til this day. I picked the recording with higher 2nd order harmonics in my brain. the 2 speakers were a kef 50 and jbl 4732 or something like that. 2 extremely different speakers that this pro made sound spooky close. I wish I could participate in more of these things, but would like to know if my answers were correct.


the synergy topic is that yes, everything is important. have any studies shown speaker measurements in a chamber actually changing due to different amp?

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post #38 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
I wish I could participate in more of these things, but would like to know if my answers were correct.
I enjoy these tests too. Would you like to participate in a blind test of amps? I'll send you a recording of a file that I'll pass through my AVR you spoke of disparagingly and we'll see if you can detect the degradation my AVR (and recording gear) causes vs. the original, untouched file.

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post #39 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 12:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by torii View Post
I had an awesome opportunity from a professional on this forum to participate in a listening test of 2 different speakers he had eq'd to match almost perfectly he said. he shared the measurements and asked me which I preferred. he wouldnt tell me which speaker was which til this day. I picked the recording with higher 2nd order harmonics in my brain. the 2 speakers were a kef 50 and jbl 4732 or something like that. 2 extremely different speakers that this pro made sound spooky close. I wish I could participate in more of these things, but would like to know if my answers were correct.
This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but there is a lot more to a speaker than just its frequency response on axis (and in-room). It's the most complicated part of the signal-chain, IMO. There's a reason that speakers still add the most THD of any single component -- we still can't create a speaker with inaudible distortion to the best of my knowledge. Moreover, I don't believe distortion can be EQ'd out, though possibly EQ can minimize it (e.g., pull down a resonant frequency).
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the synergy topic is that yes, everything is important. have any studies shown speaker measurements in a chamber actually changing due to different amp?
I don't think we need those studies. For example, if an amp runs out of current due to speaker load, it clips, and that'll make the speaker sound different.

If we were to study this phenomenon, I'd prefer to do it out of a room entirely and without even real speakers. Anyone have the skills to join up and create a full-on SPICE-based signal chain like I proposed above? We'll use a PCM file as the source and then simulate the pre-amp to speaker...that'd be super fun! Wonder how accurate it'd be? Wonder if it's already been done?!!?
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post #40 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 12:59 PM
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transparency is a goal that is worthy. the thxaaa science is pretty new and breaking ground with many owners/reviewers. thus the reason I bought the headphone amp(affordable). https://www.thx.com/mobile/aaa/


benchmark has this science in their amps. also sites like audioscience has this amp measuring better than others in many tests.

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post #41 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I enjoy these tests too. Would you like to participate in a blind test of amps? I'll send you a recording of a file that I'll pass through my AVR you spoke of disparagingly and we'll see if you can detect the degradation my AVR (and recording gear) causes vs. the original, untouched file.

sure. dont recall talking crap about your avr tho. I will need to test maybe tomorrow am tho. my tinnitus is going nuts today.

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post #42 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
sure. dont recall talking crap about your avr tho.
I guess it was more a comment on my hearing, i.e. that a cheap $20 amp would be adequate for me:

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if a well designed 20 dollar amp works for ya...perfect.
What music do you want to use for the test and have you ever done a foobarABX test before or will this be your first time? I explain it here:

There is no rush. Take a week to learn the test if you want.
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post #43 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 01:21 PM
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I guess it was more a comment on my hearing, i.e. that a cheap $20 amp would be adequate for me:



What music do you want to use for the test and have you ever done a foobarABX test before or will this be your first time? I explain it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5njCrqCN9k

There is no rush. Take a week to learn the test if you want.

cool. I like this music.

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post #44 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
transparency is a goal that is worthy. the thxaaa science is pretty new and breaking ground with many owners/reviewers. thus the reason I bought the headphone amp(affordable). https://www.thx.com/mobile/aaa/


benchmark has this science in their amps. also sites like audioscience has this amp measuring better than others in many tests.
Well, there's one rub with audiosciencereview -- measuring better doesn't mean the better measuring product is audibly better. One must be able to interpret the measurements and correlate them to human limitations. I think my biggest complaint with a site like this is, they are all about the tech-geekdom that is spec-racing, but I don't perceive them making it obvious where the line is drawn between "technically better and audibly better". Maybe they do in the text, but I'd rather it be right in your face -- here's the THD, here's the level where THD is perceptible by a human (right on the graph). If the THD is under the limit, it "doesn't matter" (unless you're spec racing).

Basically, I'd prefer a "transparency rating". Plus, for things like amplifiers/pre-amplifiers, some notion regarding the current capability of the amplifier/pre-out so I can decide if it'll work with my speakers/amps. Further, for a power-amplifier, the input sensitivity is good to know. Pretty much, the signal chain and all the variables in my original post -- in my opinion, that's all that matters. With that information, you can tell, immediately, how "synergistic" your system will be (you may also want to know the noise-floor of your room so you can determine how much power you'll need to overwhelm your noise-floor).

Finally, my guess is, in most normal (non-extreme like some of my OP examples) conditions, it's a non-issue for most people, most program material, most rooms, most speakers, etc....but most isn't all. Thus, without highly controlled tests, one can certainly see why people that don't control variables hear differences!
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post #45 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I guess it was more a comment on my hearing, i.e. that a cheap $20 amp would be adequate for me:







What music do you want to use for the test and have you ever done a foobarABX test before or will this be your first time? I explain it here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5njCrqCN9k



There is no rush. Take a week to learn the test if you want.

Oooh oooh can I play too?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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"Most theories on audio and audio reproduction will be proven wrong only when the laws of physics change."
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post #46 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 01:29 PM
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I had some technical discussions with nad engineers on my amps and gain settings. the engineer said to turn up my gains which causes the amp to work less(paraphrased). said many think opposite which is wrong.


here is one discussion


Quote:
I talked to our director of engineering. The C275 is capable of putting out in excess of 1200 watts in bridged mode into low impedances. Your speakers re rated at 350 watts maximum. Here's what I'd like to try:

Move the right amp to the left and the left amp to the right. If the problem stays in the same speaker, then it is very likely the crossover in the speaker has become damaged from excessive heat. If the problem switches to the other speaker, then I'd recommend having that amplifier looked at by a service technician. I have attached the list of our service centers.

Also, do give those amps plenty of breathing room. They run warm when bridged. Also, do not use power protection of any kind. Plug the amps directly into the wall. in fact, try that before you send it out for repair.

Regarding your gains question, it's quite the opposite...turn the gains on the rear of the amps up! By having them down, you are making the amps work harder. Also, do swap the speakers. We need to make sure the crossover in the speaker isn't damaged. If it is really just that one amp, then you should have it serviced.

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Last edited by torii; 02-27-2020 at 01:33 PM.
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post #47 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
Great music. Very nice recording.

Have you ever taken a foobar ABX test before of will this be your first time?
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post #48 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ClawAndTalon View Post
Oooh oooh can I play too?!
Yes but he picks the music.
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post #49 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 01:44 PM
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I have and do use foobar2000...I will say no I havent abx, but I think I might have years ago.

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post #50 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 02:04 PM
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I have and do use foobar2000...I will say no I havent abx, but I think I might have years ago.
Please download and install the ABX component for foobar2000 as I describe in the video. Then play around with it for a few days, or however long you need, until you feel comfortable with using it. As initial test files to play around with you could compare, for example, CD vs. vinyl, here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...lind-test.html
It is pretty easy to tell because only one file has pops and ticks and the other doesn't.

Once you post a completed score sheet from a test, so I can see that it works for you and you know how to do it, I will then work at creating the recording of the Gershwin music passing through my AVR, which will take me at least a day or so to prepare. OK?
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post #51 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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P.S., to the more technical in this thread (e.g., @m. zillch , @ClawAndTalon , @A9X-308 ) please, please, don't let me speak from authority if I'm full of it! A big part of why I have been starting threads like this is to learn if I'm full of bull or not (and to brainstorm, I mean...maybe we really don't know everything)!

I don't expect you to congratulate me and pat me on the back when I'm right, I'm not looking for affirmation. However, if I'm wrong, I want and need to hear it! Spreading more FUD is not my goal here! However, this is not my background, I'm far from an EE -- everything I "know" is intuition and what I think I know from informally educating myself through whatever (non-paid) means possible...mostly Wikipedia and others on this and similar sites.
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post #52 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Please download and install the ABX component for foobar2000 as I describe in the video. Then play around with it for a few days, or however long you need, until you feel comfortable with using it. As initial test files to play around with you could compare, for example, CD vs. vinyl, here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...lind-test.html
It is pretty easy to tell because only one file has pops and ticks and the other doesn't.

Once you post a completed score sheet from a test, so I can see that it works for you and you know how to do it, I will then work at creating the recording of the Gershwin music passing through my AVR, which will take me at least a day or so to prepare. OK?
UPDATE: This is odd. . . .I'm not seeing the ABX component download anymore. . . searching for an answer
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post #53 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Please download and install the ABX component for foobar2000 as I describe in the video. Then play around with it for a few days, or however long you need, until you feel comfortable with using it. As initial test files to play around with you could compare, for example, CD vs. vinyl, here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/173-2...lind-test.html
It is pretty easy to tell because only one file has pops and ticks and the other doesn't.

Once you post a completed score sheet from a test, so I can see that it works for you and you know how to do it, I will then work at creating the recording of the Gershwin music passing through my AVR, which will take me at least a day or so to prepare. OK?

great...I will start the process tomorrow and hit ya up via pm with questions.

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post #54 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 02:16 PM
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I have foobar 1.4.1 should I upgrade to newest version?

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300 LG oled c9 77
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS, Audioengine A2+
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP, Velodyne HGS 12, Velodyne VA1512
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post #55 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by torii View Post
I have foobar 1.4.1 should I upgrade to newest version?
Yes, but more importantly they seem to have taken down the add-on component, "ABX Comparator", perhaps for maintenance or an upgrade, I don't know. [They were on v.2 last I checked but maybe there is a v.3 coming soon?]

Unless you can find it on your own this project will need to be put on hold, sorry.
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post #56 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 02:31 PM
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Normally it is listed here:
http://www.foobar2000.org/components
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post #57 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Normally it is listed here:
http://www.foobar2000.org/components

okies.

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300 LG oled c9 77
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS, Audioengine A2+
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP, Velodyne HGS 12, Velodyne VA1512
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post #58 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe ask over here -- last post was 2017, though, by Arny (may he R.I.P.). I don't have an account, but if someone else does....
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post #59 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 06:28 PM
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System Synergy, Fact or Fiction ?
Fact.
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post #60 of 469 Old 02-27-2020, 06:50 PM
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A fat wallet, a good salesman, an insatiable upgrade urge all together make a great synergy.
m. zillch, ClawAndTalon and drh3b like this.

Save your money.
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