Are You More of an Audio Objectivist or Subjectivist? - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: Are You More of an Audio Objectivist or Subjectivist?
Objectivist 121 55.00%
Subjectivist 99 45.00%
Voters: 220. You may not vote on this poll

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post #181 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post
Either expose the errors with my test or move on. There are three legs that subjective burn in believers were standing on:

Blindness of Test. My test wasn't blind it was fully sighted.

Issues with the administrator: There was no 3rd party administrator. The test was self administered.

Time: Burn in proponents where stating that it can take days/weeks to hear the nuanced differences. The time period was 30 days.

I would say I understand the mind of the subjectivist quite well.
Well. If a test includes people i would like to see that those who conduct the test at least get some professional advise/counseling on human behavior in the field vs. a human participating in a test. That is what my post was about. That is how i feel about it. Aside from that '' i need to burn in my cable'' sounds a bit silly

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post #182 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
or to stabilize DA by in essence saturating the dielectrics.
I have a friendly bet for you on the "stabilize DA by in essence saturating the dielectrics".

I will send you two sets of cables randomly labeled. Terminated single ended RCA or balanced.

One set will be 'burned in' with pink noise for 100 hours. One set not used. In advance I will post an encrypted zip file detailing which are and are not the burned in cables.

You have 30 days, any ears only assessment, totally sighted and you can listen as long or short as you want.

You have to simply tell me which pair sounds burned in and we will see if it lines up with the answer key.

An audiophile likes to talk about how much they spent and how good it sounds.

A DIY'er likes to talk about how little they spent and how good it sounds.


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post #183 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I want my life back.
Your wish will be granted. However, there is a subjective prerequisite. Please prove that you had one before you joined this thread and then precisely define it using objective measures so that it can be precisely constructed. Any subjective self perception will not be considered and if you post that what you got was not what you had I will ignore your posts as being utter nonsense.
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post #184 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 07:18 AM
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I would have like to vote in that poll. ...But the most important option was missing: Both. ...Too bad, next poll I guess.

____________

What is the Top Science of all sciences? ...If you don't know or aren't sure don't worry; it is Biology.
The body and mind.

Alright are you ready?

I just finished talking to Mom, and she said that she loves me and she embraces me with a big hug and a kiss, and I told her the same (on the phone; she lives near Montreal).
So now I am totally free to share my objective, and by no subjective way.

Once upon a time there was a human person walking down by a bridge, in circles. ...Nobody knew where he was coming from; which side of the bridge, and no one knew exactly where he was going. ...But we all knew that he/she was on that bridge.

Under the bridge there was a river, and on the river banks there were some trees and in them trees there were birds.

With time, that human being started to walk slower and slower in circles, as if the body was finally meeting its limits.
We all observed attentively, and patiently (we have nothing else to do back then; we were contemplating and trying to make sense of what we were seeing), till night falls and that we couldn't see the human anymore (lights were not yet invented).
So we all eventually fell asleep under that big comfy tree (our viewpoint).

Early the next morning, @ the first natural light of sun, we all marvelled @ the human still walking in circles in the middle of the bridge, but now he was in slow-mo.
And still we have no clue, more than before, @ where he/she was from and going to; which side of the bridge.

Time went on like this for days. ...And days became weeks (we had a solar system by which we can approximately calculate earth time), and until one day he/she just collapsed right on that spot; in the middle of his/her circles. ...And I do mean "collapsed", because he/she was not breathing anymore!

Alright, we started thinking... And then, between all of us, we came to a sort of common conclusion. Without any testing tools available to us @ that time, we simply figured out (in our brain), that he/she was simply exhausted and in need of water, and food too.
Because everyday we eat fruits from the trees surrounding us, but not that human on that bridge.

But! @ night we couldn't see him/her. ...We all assumed that he/she was still walking in circles.
Our assumption; was it truly validated (without light, without seeing)?

So we started analysing all possibilities.
The first one was ...
The second one was ...
The third one was ...

Today, we have more tools. Tomorrow, we'll have even more. And that day, yesterday, when that human collapsed on that bridge, we just might know more about what really happened, but it will always remain uncertain for sure, because many things were missing back then, and we simply cannot restore the light, @ night, from past experiments, thinks that we all witnessed.
Our brain tells us this, and an autopsy reveals that, and this and that, perhaps, are part of the ensemble. ...Our interpretation of what we know so far, our exploration in the science of biology and the neurology.

Now, you might think, yes but what it's got to do with objectivity and subjectivity in audio/video? ...Everything.

The body and mind are affected by their activities, and they influence our judgements on ways we hear and see.
And the tools we have are only the tools we ourselves created. ...How truly reliable are they for us to truly reliably appreciate and accept their results. Tools are for fabricating, creating, fixing, ...like a paint brush, like a chisel, like a scalpel, like an electron generator. And they are only as good as we created them (the tools).

Anyway, to make a long story from a short one; don't buy a polar bear skin before first going into polar bear country/territory.
...And bring some matches.

You want a poll? AV Science forum aims to please, they hired a guy whose job can be subjectively assumed using objective measurements to include bringing you polls, poll after poll after poll. Participation is voluntary and one is free within certain bounds to include subjective evaluations of the poll and subjective valuations of the result.
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post #185 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 07:25 AM
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While I appreciate objective considerations in this hobby, it is just that...a hobby...

As such, it falls much more into the chasm of likes, preferences, desires, and further, is imo altered by our personal physical, emotional, and psychological differences.

Of course most subjectivists care about having a well-designed or well-calibrated system, to the extent that room, configuration, and budget allow. I calibrate my own projector, and I have, within reason, configured my room to sound as best as it can. I use Room Perfect to calibrate the audio. However, I am not testing every change like a NASA engineer verifying trajectory and engine firing for a journey to Mars, becuase it is largely in the area of diminishing returns; or, there ain't much more I can do about it.

If I feel shadows appear crushed or whites peaked, something isn't right, so I'll make change to try and improve it

If bass feels bloated or seems thin, something isn't right, so I'll make a change to try and improve it.

But it's fully my perception at that point. I used to care about getting gamma DE readings from 2.2 to 1.2, but it really made no difference in getting immense enjoyment from my system, so I stopped the folly. I bet even Tom Huffman (ChromaPure) might say many people here try and go too far to achieve some ultimate calibration, and bite their nails to the bone when something is less than perfect.

Finally, there's a very well respected calibrator here who, after an hour of detailed measurements and settings with a $15k spectrophotometer, puts on a variety of DVD and Blu Ray content and salts the settings to taste.

There is a value to your eyes and ears that some tend to diminish. They're always part of try chain, so embrace them.
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post #186 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
While I appreciate objective considerations in this hobby, it is just that...a hobby...

As such, it falls much more into the chasm of likes, preferences, desires, and further, is imo altered by our personal physical, emotional, and psychological differences.

Of course most subjectivists care about having a well-designed or well-calibrated system, to the extent that room, configuration, and budget allow. I calibrate my own projector, and I have, within reason, configured my room to sound as best as it can. I use Room Perfect to calibrate the audio. However, I am not testing every change like a NASA engineer verifying trajectory and engine firing for a journey to Mars, becuase it is largely in the area of diminishing returns; or, there ain't much more I can do about it.

If I feel shadows appear crushed or whites peaked, something isn't right, so I'll make change to try and improve it

If bass feels bloated or seems thin, something isn't right, so I'll make a change to try and improve it.

But it's fully my perception at that point. I used to care about getting gamma DE readings from 2.2 to 1.2, but it really made no difference in getting immense enjoyment from my system, so I stopped the folly. I bet even Tom Huffman (ChromaPure) might say many people here try and go too far to achieve some ultimate calibration, and bite their nails to the bone when something is less than perfect.

Finally, there's a very well respected calibrator here who, after an hour of detailed measurements and settings with a $15k spectrophotometer, puts on a variety of DVD and Blu Ray content and salts the settings to taste.

There is a value to your eyes and ears that some tend to diminish. They're always part of try chain, so embrace them.
For what its worth, all good calibrations include a subjective judgement of the objectively-obtained results. It's a proven, necessary component of the best calibrations. That's why calibration is sometimes described as both a science and an art.

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post #187 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 07:59 AM
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For what its worth, all good calibrations include a subjective judgement of the objectively-obtained results. It's a proven, necessary component of the best calibrations. That's why calibration is sometimes described as both a science and an art.
Agreed, that was my point...
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post #188 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 08:10 AM
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"Quantum theory has made many demands upon us. We need now to accept that physics is essentially indeterministic; that particles may be somewhere without being at any particular place; that they may have energy and momentum without having any particular value for them; and a host more non-classical oddities. Most of these ideas are simply unfamiliar conceptions and, in the end, the best thing is just to get used to the idea that world depicted by quantum theory is very different from the world delivered by our raw senses"

John D. Norton, Department of History and Philosophy of Science - University of Pittsburgh

Since this paradoxically can bork either the subjectivist or objectivist point of view, I think have reached the ideal indeterminate end of the road, which has a fork in it (metaphorically, as well...)

UPDATED 4/29/17 Thrang's Home Theater (for now...)
Sony VPL-VW5000es • Panamorph Paladin DCR • Trinnov Altitude 32/24 • Crown DCIn amplifiers • JBL M2 (LCR-LW-RW) • JBL S2S-EX subwoofers x2 • JBL SCL-4 (side/rear surrounds) • JBL SCS12 (x4) SCS8 (x2) TH/RH/TM • Lumagen Radiance Pro • Panasonic UB820 • Apple TV 4k • Synology RAID (45 TB total storage) • RTI control system

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post #189 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
"Quantum theory has made many demands upon us. We need now to accept that physics is essentially indeterministic; that particles may be somewhere without being at any particular place; that they may have energy and momentum without having any particular value for them; and a host more non-classical oddities. Most of these ideas are simply unfamiliar conceptions and, in the end, the best thing is just to get used to the idea that world depicted by quantum theory is very different from the world delivered by our raw senses"

John D. Norton, Department of History and Philosophy of Science - University of Pittsburgh

Since this paradoxically can bork either the subjectivist or objectivist point of view, I think have reached the ideal indetermine end of the road, which has a fork in it (metaphorically, as well...)
I prefer the wording from John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness...

[Birack teaches a class on quantum physics]

Professor Edward Birack: "Let's talk about our beliefs, and what we can learn about them. We believe nature is solid, and time a constant. Matter has substance and time a direction. There is truth in flesh and the solid ground. The wind may be invisible, but it's real. Smoke, fire, water, light - they're different! Not as to stone or steel, but they're tangible. And we assume time is narrow because it is as a clock - one second is one second for everyone! Cause precedes effect - fruit rots, water flows downstream. We're born, we age, we die. The reverse NEVER happens... None of this is true! Say goodbye to classical reality, because our logic collapses on the subatomic level... into ghosts and shadows."





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post #190 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 08:24 AM
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Or more succinctly,

Life sucks and then you die...

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post #191 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 08:41 AM
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Those familiar with the scientific skeptic community know that quantum physics (QP) is abused more than it's used. It's frequently wheeled out when a pseudoscience--ghost hunters, psychics, homeopathy, you name it--has run out of shadows in which to hide. Rather than basing a belief in evidence at hand, True Believers (ab)use quantum physics to explain how their pet belief can manage to exist in spite of evidence to the contrary. I say "abuse" because white QP is real, it's not real in the sense in which the pseudoscientists employ it. (It should be noted that "History and Philosophy of Science" is a humanities department, not a science department, and that science philosophers have come in conflict with actual scientists.)

But I think you're correct in saying that this question, as it's posed, can't be answered definitively in a manner satisfactory for all parties involved. If it could it would have already. As it is, it's an effective way to get the conversation going and to increase site traffic.

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post #192 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by repete66211 View Post
Those familiar with the scientific skeptic community know that quantum physics (QP) is abused more than it's used. It's frequently wheeled out when a pseudoscience--ghost hunters, psychics, homeopathy, you name it--has run out of shadows in which to hide. Rather than basing a belief in evidence at hand, True Believers (ab)use quantum physics to explain how their pet belief can manage to exist in spite of evidence to the contrary. I say "abuse" because white QP is real, it's not real in the sense in which the pseudoscientists employ it. (It should be noted that "History and Philosophy of Science" is a humanities department, not a science department, and that science philosophers have come in conflict with actual scientists.)

But I think you're correct in saying that this question, as it's posed, can't be answered definitively in a manner satisfactory for all parties involved. If it could it would have already. As it is, it's an effective way to get the conversation going and to increase site traffic.
I take it you're not too fond of the comedy genre?
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post #193 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 09:06 AM
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Lmao... Or alternatively:

don't worry be happy.

There is no science that definitely confirms fatalism (a pre determined universe), in fact the opposite is vastly more likely.

This however does not mean that current position of molecules and galaxies is not determined by where they were yesterday.

From a cognitive persepective, determinism is obvious.

I like chocalate based on my DNA (which built my taste buds) and whatever environmental infleunces such as the availability of chocolate.

So clearly my love of chocolate has deterministic reasons that go back all the way to the big bang.

Determinism and fatalism are very different.

Since free will is an illusion, a objectivist or subjectivist does not "choose" to be on or the other. His brain changes to different parts of the subjective/objective spectrum depending on experiences and the ongoing changes those experiences create in his brain.

Notice this in your life: somethings you are perfectly happy not being objective or subjective about while other areas your happiness or sadness is derived from which experience you have.

I dont worry about the subjective feeling of how 2+2 "feels". For Some people, 2+2 might feel like pure poetry... There is no rational reason for an emotional response.

Knowing that a double blinded trial shows there is no difference between a 4 (secretely derived from 2+2 or from 2^2) still won't automatically diminish the "beauty" for the guy that Loves 2+2=4.

The objectivist will have a hard to quantifying the nature of what makes something beautiful or sound "better" for someone else.

If thinking a $10000 speaker wire makes you feel better (despite no real differences between other wire... See the 4+4 vs 2^2 example above) then why should the objectivist worry about it?

These psychology issues is why a company like apple does so well. A great designer lets the consumer LOVE their objects subjectively.

Objective, engineers that are purely functionally oriented often dont appreciate the nuances lf human behavior. Objectivists can understand human behavior at an academic level.

Notice that just because you are great fan of music, doesn't automatically imply that you will be talented as a musician.

Musicians are "designers" for OUR ears and therefore are designing specifically for humans. I doubt that an alien would enjoy human music tailored specifically to our ears.

A music system that makes you "feel" great for WHATEVER reasons (subj. or obj.) should be the desired endpoint of music. Whatever endooint could there be?

That's not to say that ignorance will not lead to being shystered out of your money. Since money requires time to acquire and the fact that the grass could always be greener, every wire you buy worth $10000 could be mismanaged money that could be spent elsewhere. The objectivist's complaint is basically this in a nutshell: there is an opportunity cost to non-scientific decisionmaking. The subjectivist will say that there is an opportunity cost to objectifying and spending time on forums with analysis gear and that you might just "enjoy the music" just as well without worrying about it.

One group doesn't know what the other group is missing... A psychological dilemma that itself cannot be reconciled in our current universe. You cannot take the path not taken.
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post #194 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 09:07 AM
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I take it you're not too fond of the comedy genre?
No man, I love that comedy stuff. I know Norton's quote was hilarious; I didn't realize you were using it for comedic effect. My apologies if that's the case.

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post #195 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
"Quantum theory has made many demands upon us. We need now to accept that physics is essentially indeterministic; that particles may be somewhere without being at any particular place; that they may have energy and momentum without having any particular value for them; and a host more non-classical oddities. Most of these ideas are simply unfamiliar conceptions and, in the end, the best thing is just to get used to the idea that world depicted by quantum theory is very different from the world delivered by our raw senses"

John D. Norton, Department of History and Philosophy of Science - University of Pittsburgh

Since this paradoxically can bork either the subjectivist or objectivist point of view, I think have reached the ideal indetermine end of the road, which has a fork in it (metaphorically, as well...)
BS. You obviously made the same choice Robert Frost did with respect to the choice of roads.
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post #196 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 09:58 AM
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Good lord, some of these posts!


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Free will is an illusion.
Freedom is an illusion.
Well, I believe you are confused in making such claims.

But that discussion would surely get us even more off topic.
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post #197 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 10:06 AM
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Everything I hold true to acoustics and sound reproduction in rooms is different than it was five years ago. I had to throw out literally decades of such "knowledge" once exposed to the real science. That science did not exist in forums. What existed was old folklore. For that many years I have been telling the new story. I don't remember a single person changing their view that is arguing with me, no matter how much evidence I have put forward. Research paper after research paper. Listening test after listening test. Expert view after expert view.
Putting aside whether your position on particular audio issues is sound or not (certainly may well be)...if your approach to understanding and arguing your position is a scientific one, then well done!

(I don't mean to say that all conversation between us enthusiasts has to be strictly scientifically vetted or anything - there'd be little interest in such findings in the first place if subjectivity weren't part of the experience. But when it comes to claims with technical implications, especially controversial ones, I'm going to be more convinced by appeals that show familiarity with relevant science and research, and methods that take into account well known biases, vs purely subjective anecdotes).
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post #198 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 10:09 AM
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A great poll idea. When you post right here on AV Science forum, have you ever used psuedoscience and abused quantum physics to justify your position.

Yes I did and I am freeking proud of it. It wasn't easy.

No I don't. I am a slam, bam, thank you kind of man and everything I say is consistent with the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

I am not sure. I am mostly clueless about quantum physics, I never even fully grasped the concept of F=ma and kinda lost it converting g to a, though I fully understand the difference between a known and an unknown. I know most all, certainly enough to not take any action that would violate the law of diminishing returns, and I recognize that for me anything I don't know is an unknown.

Have scientific laws even been proven to be wrong? Have you ever held a belief or continue to hold a belief that would violate a known scientific law? Is it ever possible that a law is simply wrong and to prove instances that occur in violation of a law thus requiring modification of the law or completely discarding it. Do you believe E=M(C squared)?

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post #199 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 10:47 AM
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... I think have reached the ideal indetermine end of the road, which has a fork in it (metaphorically, as well...)
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it." Yogi Berra

Berra says this is part of driving directions to his house in Montclair, New Jersey. There is a fork in the road, and whichever way you take, you will get to his house.

I'll be back later...


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post #200 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
While I appreciate objective considerations in this hobby, it is just that...a hobby...

As such, it falls much more into the chasm of likes, preferences, desires, and further, is imo altered by our personal physical, emotional, and psychological differences.

Of course most subjectivists care about having a well-designed or well-calibrated system, to the extent that room, configuration, and budget allow. I calibrate my own projector, and I have, within reason, configured my room to sound as best as it can. I use Room Perfect to calibrate the audio. However, I am not testing every change like a NASA engineer verifying trajectory and engine firing for a journey to Mars, becuase it is largely in the area of diminishing returns; or, there ain't much more I can do about it.

If I feel shadows appear crushed or whites peaked, something isn't right, so I'll make change to try and improve it

If bass feels bloated or seems thin, something isn't right, so I'll make a change to try and improve it.

But it's fully my perception at that point. I used to care about getting gamma DE readings from 2.2 to 1.2, but it really made no difference in getting immense enjoyment from my system, so I stopped the folly......
Yes it's a hobby
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post #201 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 11:31 AM
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I voted objectivist but understanding the limitations of our current measurements, I also appreciate subjective reviews.

Amplifiers are a classic case. They are measured simplistically. Often, using a single tone or sweep with a constant load or a tone burst.
This does not come close to the load of a speaker or the complex wave forms comprising music.

HomeTheaterHiFi has in the past measured multiple tones and also connected to a speakers, but only for the best amps..
The two tone tests, have shown increases in IM distortion. Why not a 10-tone test?

I'd love to see a measurement of the input signal and output signal gain adjusted and analyzed for IM and power compression driving real loads.
In the meantime, given the measurements that are provided, I see a value in subjective reviews from professional and enthusiasts.

The Ultra-high-def audio is interesting to me because I have some that are clearly superior recordings (likely due to the mastering).
Ultra-sonics can introduce IM when played through a particular users system.
It is possible that DACs filtering can also produce a difference by changing the filtering.
What is not possible, is for humans to hear ultra-sonics.

- Rich
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post #202 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 11:51 AM
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"It's just a hobby"

Hobbies have varying degrees of participation.

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post #203 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post
Yes it's a hobby

Why is it a hobby? It might be a hobby to some but to others it is a necessity of life. My wife must watch TV. If you hang a TV on a wall, is the TV a hobby? If you put up a sound bar and some sort of woofer that goes with it are you a hobbyist or have you just fulfilled a life need? Does one go to a commercial theater to see a movie is going a hobby? If you want to see movies in your house, because you want better quality than what you see there or because you want to make serious hanky panky while watching a movie and your partner is too self conscious to do it there, is installing a HT or having someone do it for you, a hobby? Is trying to make a POS HT better a hobby? Stamp collecting, coin collecting, building models, chasing models all hobbies. A HT is in many ways no different that designing a kitchen and choosing the appliances, cabinets, yada yada. There are zillions of choices just like there are zillions of choices in implementing a HT. Is watching a feetball game part of a hobby for me? No FW. HT is simply a means to an end. Only if the means is the primary thing that counts, then HT is a hobby and not a necessity. Come on. What do you think. AV Science forum wants to know. A poll. Boss, The plane. The plane. The poll. The poll.

Do you consider HT a hobby or a necessity. If both, which one is more important? If both, which one dominates?

Is your interest in obtaining an end and then learning to make it better or to incorporate the latest such as installing ceiling speakers for overhead sound or is it in just learning and teaching others about what you think you know or in sharing and advocating your opinions. The forum is a tool to find out specific pieces of info. That is not a hobby either. But posting and posting and posting on the forum is a hobby. AV Science forum is a hobby mostly, and it certainly is for me. HT isn't. And now we have two paid hobby masters whose job it is to keep us interested, to make us want to come back every day for another hobby fest. Probably a good thing as long as one doesn't _____ __ ____.
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post #204 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 12:21 PM
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Why is it a hobby?
It's a hobby because no one is paying you to do it.
The outfits that sell you the gear and services (if you use them) are businesses.
Now, the businesses are often trying to sell you stuff that does improve your experience and whole bunch of crap that does not.
I try not the buy that latter but the obsession with this hobby can be costly

- Rich

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post #205 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 12:33 PM
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Since you folks brought it up. Still waiting for the unified field theory they promised us years ago..

On the positiv side, we still can make Einstein jokes after all these years.


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post #206 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
"It's just a hobby"

Hobbies have varying degrees of participation.

Does that really fly?

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #207 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 12:36 PM
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Does that really fly?

Till they crashed it, it did.

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post #208 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post
It's a hobby because no one is paying you to do it.
The outfits that sell you the gear and services (if you use them) are businesses.
Now, the businesses are often trying to sell you stuff that does improve your experience and whole bunch of crap that does not.
I try not the buy that latter but the obsession with this hobby can be costly

- Rich
No one is paying me to install say another bathroom in my house, I would install another one if I had a perceived need for one, just like I had a perceived need for a HT. It ain't a hobby. Answering your post is my hobby.
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post #209 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by RayDunzl View Post
"It's just a hobby"

Hobbies have varying degrees of participation.

Oh my I used to do that but never at that scale!

Last edited by wse; 10-20-2014 at 12:49 PM.
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post #210 of 264 Old 10-20-2014, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
No one is paying me to install say another bathroom in my house, I would install another one if I had a perceived need for one, just like I had a perceived need for a HT. It ain't a hobby. Answering your post is my hobby.

https://www.google.com/search?q=defi...oe=&gws_rd=ssl

Quote:
hob·by1
ˈhäbē/
noun

noun: hobby; plural noun: hobbies
  1. 1.
    an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.
    "her hobbies are reading and gardening"
    synonyms:pastime, leisure activity, leisure pursuit; Moresideline, side interest, diversion, avocation;
    recreation, entertainment, amusement
    "writing poetry is just one of my hobbies"

  2. 2.
    archaic
    a small horse or pony
Eventually, someone might pay more for your house as a result of your bathroom.


Most people stop upgrading their bathrooms. They do not continuously go onto forums trying to improve the flush.
In my view, there are hobbies, serious hobbies, and OCD hobbies

- Rich
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