What Colors Do You Perceive This Dress To Be? - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
View Poll Results: What Colors Do You Perceive This Dress To Be?
Blue with black trim 251 31.93%
White with gold trim 397 50.51%
Something else 74 9.41%
My perception switches over time 64 8.14%
Voters: 786. You may not vote on this poll

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post #241 of 295 Old 03-07-2015, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
@MLXXX
Is your monitor calibrated to 6500K?
These is no way you still see the BLUE square as Grey, something must be very wrong...
On all of my devices (Android phones, iPad, TV screen, pc screen) the left hand rectangular (near square) patch of colour, that Zillch has provided, looks to my eyes as grey with a slight bias towards blue.

I note that this rectangular patch on the left it is not a simple blue at the R G B level. Using screen capture on my pc and the GIMP image editor I measured R163 G174 B209, which could be described as a light grey with a blue push, and a slight green push.

(In the fuller context of the yellowish looking light on the floor near the dress, in the amateur photo, my brain largely discounts the blue and green pushes and instead of seeing grey with a blue push sees the fabric as being white but under dull illumination.)

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Originally Posted by work permit View Post
Wow. You are saying the left patch looks grey? May I ask, what color does the background on these posts look to you? They are quite blue on my ipad and pale blue on my calibrated monitor. Do you see white/light grey?
I am using the default forum "skin".

For the background colour of a post in this thread on my pc, I see a light grey with a suggestion of blue. Measuring the RGB values (using pc screen capture) I obtained R230 G237 B245. That is a fairly bright grey with a hint of green and greater hint of blue, noting that a bright grey would have the Green and Blue values exactly the same as the Red value (e.g. R230 G230 B230). In my opinion, the colour can reasonably be described as a light grey with a blue push.

There appears to be near universal agreement that the main fabric colour of the dress as it appears when photographed with neutral lighting is blue, but I note that the RGB values under those conditions are quite different. From an advertisement image, I obtained a spot reading for the blue part of the top of the dress of R51 G71 B 221. Blue predominates by a large margin in a standard photo of the dress, and in the Ellen DeGeneres show Youtube videos of the dress. But in the amateur photo, the Red and Green values are very high, and compete with the Blue values.

Last edited by MLXXX; 03-07-2015 at 05:26 PM.
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post #242 of 295 Old 03-07-2015, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLXXX View Post
I am using the default forum "skin".

For the background colour of a post in this thread on my pc, I see a light grey with a suggestion of blue. Measuring the RGB values (using pc screen capture) I obtained R230 G237 B245. That is a fairly bright grey with a hint of green and greater hint of blue, noting that a bright grey would have the Green and Blue values exactly the same as the Red value (e.g. R230 G230 B230). In my opinion, the colour can reasonably be described as a light grey with a blue push.
Thank you. Just for fun I used a color patch with the values R230 G237 B245 and verified it looks identical to the forum background. The patch, and the forum background, looks pale blue to me. I guess now that you mention the green, it does lean towards cyan. I suppose this is further proof we all perceive colors differently.

Alex
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post #243 of 295 Old 03-07-2015, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Highjinx View Post



Left: Light blue


Right: Muddy gold
I'd call the left patch white/gray with a bluish cast (or simply with a poor white balance on the camera), but otherwise I agree with you.


The thing is, why won't any of the main "blue/black dress" people speak up and defend the right square as, um, "black", or for that matter say that the dress on the right (in the two that I created) as "black"? SPEAK UP blue/black dress people!

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #244 of 295 Old 03-07-2015, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I'd call the left patch white/gray with a bluish cast (or simply with a poor white balance on the camera), but otherwise I agree with you.


The thing is, why won't any of the main "blue/black dress" people speak up and defend the right square as, um, "black", or for that matter say that the dress on the right (in the two that I created) as "black"? SPEAK UP blue/black dress people!

I'm a blue black person. the right square can be a greyish hue but never a black. The ink dropper would have been on a light highlighted pixel, could have just have sampled an adjacent charcoal/browish pixel

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post #245 of 295 Old 03-07-2015, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
SPEAK UP blue/black dress people!
Because it's not black in the squares.
It's brown-gold-palepoop kind of color.

"We" say black & blue because our brains do not trick us into thinking its white and gold but rather see what is actually has been photographed, a true black & blue dress with yellow lighting inside the shop with a poor contrast camera.
A real white dress would have took the yellow light and had a white-yellow/ivory tint to it.... NOT Blue.

Or at least that's how I see it.

Last edited by James Freeman; 03-07-2015 at 08:22 PM.
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post #246 of 295 Old 03-07-2015, 08:34 PM
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Highjinx and James Freeman, are you telling me that the color square I made on the right side is not a faithful representation of what the dress (original image) color actually is? Remember the discussion is about the viral image floating around the web, not what color this particular dress is in good lighting in real life. Granted, parts of the original image are in various darknesses due to shadows, but ignoring the brightness factor and only judging it as a color, are you saying my right square is not faithful to what color fabric the dress image shows? Am I understanding you guys correctly?

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #247 of 295 Old 03-07-2015, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
Am I understanding you guys correctly?
No.
Your square DOES look like the color of the "black" in the original photo BUT;
What differs between people who see White vs Blue is CONTEXT or what our brains tell us where, in what environment and lighting the dress is.

My brain tells me this black and blue dress was photographed from inside a shop with yellow lighting shining on the dress with a poor contrast camera.
The black part of the dress has some of the yellow lighting on it that's why it looks brownish gold, but my brain clearly understands that the dark color on the real dress is Black.
Because my brain understands the black part is actually black, in result, I see the blue part as blue.
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post #248 of 295 Old 03-07-2015, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
Your square DOES look like the color of the "black" in the original photo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Freeman View Post
It's brown-gold-palepoop kind of color.
I rest my case your honor!


Seriously though, under the scientific principal of "discounting the illuminant" we are discounting two different things I guess. That's one of the prevalent theories running around.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #249 of 295 Old 03-07-2015, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
....................you telling me that the color square I made on the right side is not a faithful representation of what the dress (original image) color actually is?

Not entirely, in the original posted image, the top of the dress where incandescent light is reflecting there is a blend of charcoal and the reflected yellow/gold light, but beyond/below that the when the angle of the light source changes, it progressively gets a darker and darker grey of course with the main bits being blue.


The square you made is a representation of some of the pixels of top part only, that part is made of yellow/gold reflected bits and charcoal bits. The square is more the gold/yellow bits which is reflected light from the light source.


As my eyes see it!!

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post #250 of 295 Old 03-08-2015, 12:07 AM
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What color do you blue/blackers see in this company's , um, new pattern? Same as always?

I made the background neutral gray so we'll have none of this "the surrounding colors alter your color perception" business [not to say that's not, at times true]. I think it should be pretty obvious how I made this. It is entirely just a crop and enlarged section of the original and there have been no other alterations, except I took in the waist a little, by mistake.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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post #251 of 295 Old 03-08-2015, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
What color do you blue/blackers see in this company's , um, new pattern? Same as always?

I made the background neutral gray so we'll have none of this "the surrounding colors alter your color perception" business [not to say that's not, at times true]. I think it should be pretty obvious how I made this. It is entirely just a crop and enlarged section of the original and there have been no other alterations, except I took in the waist a little, by mistake.

Bottom Blue


Mid charcoal/muddy gold/light pink


Top Muddy Gold

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post #252 of 295 Old 03-08-2015, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
I made the background neutral gray so we'll have none of this "the surrounding colors alter your color perception" business [not to say that's not, at times true].
I'm a blue/black person, i've never seen it any other way. It baffles me anybody can see it as white/gold, particularly with the white. I can see how some can see gold since light is shining on the upper part of the dress, which in turn makes it appear gold/brown. But i can clearly see it getting blacker as i move towards the bottom of her dress where the light source isn't washing out the black as much.

But addressing your quoted statement, your pic with the neutral gray background completely alters what i see. Top color is now gold(actually somewhere between a muddy flat gold and bronze), but i still see the same light blue as the original pic.

So if you were trying to prove that visual cues such as lighting, backgrounds, etc. make a big difference in how we see things, then your edited pic does a great job of showing that.
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post #253 of 295 Old 03-08-2015, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by staindrocks View Post
I'm a blue/black person, i've never seen it any other way. It baffles me anybody can see it as white/gold, particularly with the white. ...
But addressing your quoted statement, your pic with the neutral gray background completely alters what i see. Top color is now gold (actually somewhere between a muddy flat gold and bronze), but i still see the same light blue as the original pic.
Congratulations, this description fairly represents what us white/golders see for the original image. I'm pretty sure I speak for all of us W/Gs in that we never claimed the white part was a pure white. It definitely has a bluish element to it but that is not at all uncommon when the white balance of the camera is off, or if say illuminated by moon light, and we mentally discount that in our perceptual image.


This scientific principle is called "discounting the illuminant". It means our brain assumes the light source was not a pure white, it almost never is, so we have to discount the manner in which it alters the color. Bluish light falling on a white dress causes that lower half of my dress color. I'd say it looks like a gallon of white paint with a cup or two of blue paint mixed in. The result is a very pale blue.


You black/bluers, B/B, see the lower half of the dress as "reality", it is blue to you, you anchor on that, and you are mentally discounting an alteration to the dress [pun intended] in whatever that other part is.


This is at least one of the main theories floating around but I'd like to know why is this the first, actual photograph, discovered in 2015, in which we have discovered that people seem to so squarely fall into two camps. To the best of my knowledge scientists don't even have a CGI test pattern for us to all look at which exposes this exact dichotomy concept, that is, an image where they can predict "the W/Gs are going to claim this when they look at it, whereas the B/Bs are going to claim this other thing."


Quote:
So if you were trying to prove that visual cues such as lighting, backgrounds, etc. make a big difference in how we see things, then your edited pic does a great job of showing that.
Thanks. My main goal was to show B/Bs what the other camp sees.


The dress appears to be "light blue", to me, for the same reason the coffee urn in example B, here, looks "light blue":

But I get how your camp doesn't see it that way and thinks this example I just gave is silly.
Ph8te likes this.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #254 of 295 Old 03-08-2015, 01:16 PM
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From further down where the yellow light source isn't hitting the dress as bad, compared side by side with zillch's pic...



BTW, do you white/gold people still see the blue part of the dress as being white in the next pic?


Last edited by staindrocks; 03-08-2015 at 01:34 PM.
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post #255 of 295 Old 03-08-2015, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by staindrocks View Post
From further down where the yellow light source isn't hitting the dress as bad.

That middle, large band, taking up perhaps 60% of the entire image I just quoted you on, above, is [predominantly] brown to us W/Gers [Ther's a few speckles here or there which don't matter though. There's also a very tiny strip running diagonally down its middle, top right to lower left, but it's so tiny it can hardly be said to have a strong color so we ignore it]. Gold dress material in dim lighting is indeed sort of brownish so this is to be expected. What do you see?


The top part is the same very pale bluish white we always see, what happens to white dress material when viewed in moonlight or with the wrong white balance on the camera settings.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

Last edited by m. zillch; 03-08-2015 at 01:52 PM.
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post #256 of 295 Old 03-08-2015, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by staindrocks View Post
From further down where the yellow light source isn't hitting the dress as bad, compared side by side with zillch's pic...




There are minor, inconsequential differences between these two dresses [in perceived brightness and contrast], but the colors themselves are pretty much intact.

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".

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post #257 of 295 Old 03-08-2015, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
That middle, large band, taking up perhaps 60% of the entire image I just quoted you on, above, is brown to us W/Gers. Gold dress material in dim lighting is indeed sort of brownish so this is to be expected. What do you see?


The top part is the same very pale bluish white we always see, what happens to white dress material when viewed in moonlight or with the wrong white balance on the camera settings.
I see black being washed out a little bit by the light, but again, i can see why your "camp" sees gold rather than black. Even though i would say it was black if my life depended on it, the decision between black and goldish brown would make me sweat.

The one that blows my mind is the blue! It's crazy that you guys see something that's not even close to white as white. I mean, yeah, the blue is a bit washed out from the same yellow light source that's hitting the black compared to the real color of the dress that's a darker shade of blue, but it's still clearly blue.

Put it to you this way, to me that blue looks about as blue as the blue skies outside. Do you guys see a blue sky or a white sky? I don't understand how somebody could see one and not the other.
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post #258 of 295 Old 03-08-2015, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by staindrocks View Post
The one that blows my mind is the blue! It's crazy that you guys see something that's not even close to white as white.
It's only "blue" in the sense that this coffee urn [the main color, not the rectangular label area] is "blue", in this picture at least:

In A/V reproduction accuracy, there IS no concept of "accounting for personal taste/preference". As art consumers we don't "pick" the level of bass, nor the tint/brightness of a scene's sky, any more than we pick the ending of a novel or Mona Lisa's type of smile. "High fidelity" means "high truthfulness", faithful to the original artist's intent: an unmodified, neutral, accurate copy of the original master, ideally being exact and with no discernable alterations, aka "transparency".
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
The fact that there are some people like you who flip their perception for reasons which aren't entirely clear, suggests whatever is going on can't be due to different structures in the eye, as some scientists have mentioned, such as different balances of certain cones with differing color sensitivities, since as far as I know our eyes' internal structure and ratio of cones to rods, etc. doesn't alter day to day!
I must confess. I made the comment about red & green in jest while just having fun with Scott about his Star Trek dustup. I really only see Blue and Different shades of gray (light-Dark) from day to day. I have seen White or very light blue and Gold. when the photo has been changed itself to highlight that effect. And that was what I was really joking about in the comment to Scott. But with that said. It does not change the validity or lack thereof of your point IMO.
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This thread right here about that dress; is she yet in wikipedia?
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Originally Posted by m. zillch View Post
It's only "blue" in the sense that this coffee urn [the main color, not the rectangular label area] is "blue", in this picture at least:

See! Now you went and screwed me up with the Red/Green. Because I see different shades of Green. But only Orange for the Red. While my avatar/logo sweater is definitely Red. Yikes!
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I see black, green, white, and blue (the candle in the glass).
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post #263 of 295 Old 03-08-2015, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by staindrocks View Post
I see black being washed out a little bit by the light, but again, i can see why your "camp" sees gold rather than black. Even though i would say it was black if my life depended on it, the decision between black and goldish brown would make me sweat.
Sorry but to me it is decidedly a goldish brown. Far removed from black!


Quote:
The one that blows my mind is the blue! It's crazy that you guys see something that's not even close to white as white. I mean, yeah, the blue is a bit washed out from the same yellow light source that's hitting the black compared to the real color of the dress that's a darker shade of blue, but it's still clearly blue.

Put it to you this way, to me that blue looks about as blue as the blue skies outside. Do you guys see a blue sky or a white sky? I don't understand how somebody could see one and not the other.
Setting aside the orange-yellow-red of dawn or dusk, the blue colour overhead of a cloudless sky is a purer blue than what I see in the amateur photo. The main fabric colour in the amateur photo appears to my eyes to be a "contaminated" light blue. The contaminated blue is the sort of colour white fabric appears to be when dimly lit with a cool light source, or which some cameras provide if the white point is out of adjustment (e.g. if too much yellowish light in the rest of the frame has caused the camera to treat the scene as early morning or late afternoon, and to push all content in the frame towards blue).


For my eyes it is seeing the dull gold colour of the darker parts of the dress next to the contaminated white that instantly and unconsciously makes me think the contaminated white is actually white in low lighting. There is some sort of colour or illumination correlation or consistency between the gold/bronze and the off-white that makes me see the off-white as essentially white; though it retains for my vision a tinge of blue. The remaining apparent blue tinge is so small I can disregard it and call the fabric white.


As I say, what I find difficult to fathom is how the gold/bronze/olive colour of the darker parts of the dress as they appear to me (and to other white and golders) in the amateur photo could possibly be described as black!

Another thing, staindrocks, are you saying that the main fabric colour in the full amateur photo looks just a light blue to you, not a dark blue? (I had for some reason assumed that people in the blue and black camp were seeing a dark blue, not dissimilar to the colour of the actual dress in neutral lighting, rather than a light sky blue.)

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Light blue and gold. Same as every other time I've seen it.
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post #265 of 295 Old 03-09-2015, 09:38 AM
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I initially saw a white dress with gold trim when my daughter showed it to me. If you look a little harder at it without specifically looking at the dress you may see hues of light blue for the white, but the gold in my eyes never changes. I don't see black at all.

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post #266 of 295 Old 03-09-2015, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLXXX View Post
Sorry but to me it is decidedly a goldish brown. Far removed from black!



Setting aside the orange-yellow-red of dawn or dusk, the blue colour overhead of a cloudless sky is a purer blue than what I see in the amateur photo. The main fabric colour in the amateur photo appears to my eyes to be a "contaminated" light blue. The contaminated blue is the sort of colour white fabric appears to be when dimly lit with a cool light source, or which some cameras provide if the white point is out of adjustment (e.g. if too much yellowish light in the rest of the frame has caused the camera to treat the scene as early morning or late afternoon, and to push all content in the frame towards blue).


For my eyes it is seeing the dull gold colour of the darker parts of the dress next to the contaminated white that instantly and unconsciously makes me think the contaminated white is actually white in low lighting. There is some sort of colour or illumination correlation or consistency between the gold/bronze and the off-white that makes me see the off-white as essentially white; though it retains for my vision a tinge of blue. The remaining apparent blue tinge is so small I can disregard it and call the fabric white.


As I say, what I find difficult to fathom is how the gold/bronze/olive colour of the darker parts of the dress as they appear to me (and to other white and golders) in the amateur photo could possibly be described as black!

Another thing, staindrocks, are you saying that the main fabric colour in the full amateur photo looks just a light blue to you, not a dark blue? (I had for some reason assumed that people in the blue and black camp were seeing a dark blue, not dissimilar to the colour of the actual dress in neutral lighting, rather than a light sky blue.)
That's the problem with describing the dress as either blue and black or white and gold. There are many different shades of blue, so no way to know which particular shade a person means when they describe it as blue. It also appears that people will describe just about any shade of metal that isn't pure silver as looking "gold". To me, the "gold/black" is neither gold or black. To me, it's somewhere between dark gray and bronze. In the entire image of the dress, I only see a handful of pixels that I would call "gold" and those are at the top of the dress, where it appears to be reflecting a bright yellowish light source. This appears to be consistent with the bright yellowish light reflecting off of the floor and suggests that the actual shade of "blue" of the dress is likely a tad deeper and less grayish than it first appears. I would never have guessed that the dress was actually royal blue. To me, it appeared to be much closer to a cornflower blue or baby blue that was being washed out by the typical warm lighting of a clothing store.
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post #267 of 295 Old 03-09-2015, 02:11 PM
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white and gold
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post #268 of 295 Old 03-09-2015, 07:08 PM
 
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white and gold
But of course.
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post #269 of 295 Old 03-09-2015, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
... This appears to be consistent with the bright yellowish light reflecting off of the floor and suggests that the actual shade of "blue" of the dress is likely a tad deeper and less grayish than it first appears. I would never have guessed that the dress was actually royal blue. To me, it appeared to be much closer to a cornflower blue or baby blue that was being washed out by the typical warm lighting of a clothing store.
Thanks HockeyoAJB.

Blue and Blackers, is the part I've highlighted above in bold a fair comment for your own personal perception of the "blue" in the amateur photo, i.e. you wouldn't have guessed that the dress was actually as deep a blue as it is with neutral lighting and photography?

I think it's important to establish whether Blue and Blackers see the main fabric colour in the amateur photo as a light blue similar to a sky blue or a dark blue similar to royal blue. If as a light blue, then there is not as big difference in perception compared with the White and Gold camp. Here is a picture of the dress as it appears in an ad:



So, do Blue and Blackers imagine the blue in the amateur photo to be of a dress that is as dark a blue as above? If not, do you perhaps imagine it to be closer in lightness to the background colour (a light blue-green) in the above image?
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post #270 of 295 Old 03-09-2015, 08:13 PM
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^^^ is the picture I saw which clearly shows blue/black. I still think this is trolling at its finest


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