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post #4321 of 4663 Old 10-29-2019, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by David Ortiz View Post
However, those options are greyed out for my Fire TV sticks (Bluetooth control) and my Sony TV (IP control). Curiously, my Apple TV 4K (also Bluetooth) doesn't have the option greyed out.
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Originally Posted by Joe Zone View Post
For my Roku ultras, the only one not grayed out is Hub only.
I think all "stick" devices (Roku, Fire) are greyed out because they don't have any IR receiver. The stick devices (and Chromecast "disc") are normally meant to be plugged into the back of the TV or AVR, where there typically is no line-of-sight available for IR, so they don't include IR sensors.

Non-stick devices (Roku Express, Roku Ultra, Apple TV) support both IR & bluetooth/IP -- so I would expect those to not be greyed out (unless maybe Harmony automatically disable IR if you've already paired the Harmony via bluetooth/IP).
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post #4322 of 4663 Old 10-29-2019, 03:56 PM
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I think all "stick" devices (Roku, Fire) are greyed out because they don't have any IR receiver...
That's good to know. All the OP has to do is add the Stick version of the device rather than what he actually has. Then the remote won't try to send IR. All the commands among the different models are the same.

Give that a try @Joe Zone . Just add one new Roku using a stick model number, then see if it affects the other Rokus.
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post #4323 of 4663 Old 10-29-2019, 04:24 PM
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That's good to know. All the OP has to do is add the Stick version of the device rather than what he actually has. Then the remote won't try to send IR. All the commands among the different models are the same.



Give that a try @Joe Zone . Just add one new Roku using a stick model number, then see if it affects the other Rokus.


Thanks, I can do that as a test, but ultimately I need the ultra for other reasons. I’m going to try electrical tape over the IR sensor first.


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post #4324 of 4663 Old 10-29-2019, 07:09 PM
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The codes for all Roku models are the same. There is no reason at all to use the Ultra device profile if the Stick solves your problem.
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post #4325 of 4663 Old 10-29-2019, 08:11 PM
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The codes for all Roku models are the same. There is no reason at all to use the Ultra device profile if the Stick solves your problem.


I need the Ethernet port on the Ultra


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post #4326 of 4663 Old 10-29-2019, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Zone View Post
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Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
The codes for all Roku models are the same. There is no reason at all to use the Ultra device profile if the Stick solves your problem.


I need the Ethernet port on the Ultra


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i’m not saying replace your actual box with a stick. I’m saying add a new device, pick the stick model on your harmony and pair it with the your Ultra. There is no actual stick in this scenario. We’re simply fooling the harmony into treating your Ultra as if it has no IR.
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post #4327 of 4663 Old 10-30-2019, 03:59 AM
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i’m not saying replace your actual box with a stick. I’m saying add a new device, pick the stick model on your harmony and pair it with the your Ultra. There is no actual stick in this scenario. We’re simply fooling the harmony into treating your Ultra as if it has no IR.


Hmmm....I’m being a little dense here I think. I apologize. Am I able to go into the Harmony software and find each of these roku ultras (there are 3) and change the device type from ultra to a different type?

Or I guess I can remove all 3 and re-add then. Then hopefully during that process I can trick the Harmony into believing they are a different device type.

Is that the suggestion?

If so, exactly which device type do I choose?

Again, sorry for being a little slow here.


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post #4328 of 4663 Old 10-31-2019, 08:26 AM
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I heard back from Harmony. They confirmed that their device is sending IR and IP as part of their "Fall Back" functionality. They acknowledge that the Roku remotes themselves do not behave this way. They introduced this function as a fail safe for situations when the Harmony loses connectivity with WIFI (but it seems that it does this all the time, not just when connectivity is lost).

This information was communicated to me by a Level 2 Supervisor (Philippines). The next step is for a CA, USA product specialist to call me to discuss potential solutions -- apparently something that is rarely done. I am waiting for that call.

I will see what they have to say, but so far the options seem to be:

1. Tape in front of Roku sensors.
2. Trick Harmony into believing my Ultras are Sticks which hopefully will stop the Harmony from sending IR completely.
3. Harmony turns off this "fall back" function via a software/firmware release.
4. Go back to Native Remotes
5. Find a different Universal remote


Any other ideas are appreciated...

Ugh.
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post #4329 of 4663 Old 10-31-2019, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Zone View Post
I will see what they have to say, but so far the options seem to be:

1. Tape in front of Roku sensors.
2. Trick Harmony into believing my Ultras are Sticks which hopefully will stop the Harmony from sending IR completely.
3. Harmony turns off this "fall back" function via a software/firmware release.
4. Go back to Native Remotes
5. Find a different Universal remote


Any other ideas are appreciated...

Ugh.
It wouldn't surprise me if the "fall back" function applied to all IP controlled Rokus. You might trick your hub into thinking you had a Stick and not an Ultra, but Harmony may have said it doesn't matter if we send IR to a stick because it doesn't have a sensor.

I would take option 1 FTW, once you've tested to see that the tape actually fixes things for you.
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post #4330 of 4663 Old 10-31-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Zone View Post
I will see what they have to say, but so far the options seem to be:

1. Tape in front of Roku sensors.

Why wouldn't you just do that and be done with it?

If it's the kludginess of tape, Amazon has sets of various size and shape stickers for just that purpose:

https://smile.amazon.com/s?k=led+cov...f=nb_sb_noss_1
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post #4331 of 4663 Old 10-31-2019, 11:15 AM
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Tape seems like a permanent solution. Waiting for a maybe Harmony update is not a safe bet. Tape it crudely first to test to confirm that that fixes it. If the roku/tape is visible, you can probably find nice tape or a black round sticker to put over it that will be invisible.
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post #4332 of 4663 Old 10-31-2019, 05:24 PM
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Tape seems like a permanent solution. Waiting for a maybe Harmony update is not a safe bet. Tape it crudely first to test to confirm that that fixes it. If the roku/tape is visible, you can probably find nice tape or a black round sticker to put over it that will be invisible.
Ugh....Frying pan/Fire.

I FINALLY got to speak ear-to-ear with a guy who knew what he was talking about.....Here's the scoop, and it's not good.....

1. The IR "fall back" function is an attempted band-aid to a known bug that Harmony has with IP control. Rather than fixing this bug that is associated with the Harmony Elite (HE) buffering with Wifi (which causes the user to have to press a button multiple times to get a response), they implemented this IR fall-back feature.

2. OK, new info. I can pair my native remotes using IR only and each will control only the Ultra it is intended to control. But for some reason when the Harmony uses the fall-back, it does not ALWAYS limit itself to just the IR signal that is paired with the unit it is trying to control. It seems to SOMETIMES use other IR signals as well.....Which in my mind is another bug within the band-aid.

As a test, I did the electrical tape solution and sure enough it completely solved the multiple units responding issue, but this buffering problem that the Harmony guy said would occur, absolutely did....unacceptably so....I would say that on at least 25% of my button pushes I would have to repeat it multiple times to get it to work. This is a much worse situation that the occasional "should not respond" issue.

The Harmony guy predicted I would feel this way and said that my real options at this point are:

a) They fix the problem with the IP over WIFI problems. How long will this take? He is looking it to it and will call back tomorrow with an update.
b) I just live with the problem (whichever one I prefer)
c) I get a new remote. He gave me the names of their major high end competitors (URC/Savant/Control 4). I called two of them today and they do not have a solution that would work. Note that I am not able to run wires from a hub to my units.

I am really blown away that this may not be a fixable problem (at least not without construction or accepting exposed wires).
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post #4333 of 4663 Old 10-31-2019, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Zone View Post
2. OK, new info. I can pair my native remotes using IR only and each will control only the Ultra it is intended to control. But for some reason when the Harmony uses the fall-back, it does not ALWAYS limit itself to just the IR signal that is paired with the unit it is trying to control. It seems to SOMETIMES use other IR signals as well.....Which in my mind is another bug within the band-aid.
If 2 is true and you really can get your 3 native remotes to control your Rokus independently with IR, then you can use those 3 remotes to create custom devices in Harmony by learning the IR commands from the native remotes to the hub. This way you’re not identifying the devices as Rokus to the hub and there won’t be any IP control involved.
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post #4334 of 4663 Old 10-31-2019, 05:39 PM
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Ugh....Frying pan/Fire.

I FINALLY got to speak ear-to-ear with a guy who knew what he was talking about.....Here's the scoop, and it's not good.....

1. The IR "fall back" function is an attempted band-aid to a known bug that Harmony has with IP control. Rather than fixing this bug that is associated with the Harmony Elite (HE) buffering with Wifi (which causes the user to have to press a button multiple times to get a response), they implemented this IR fall-back feature.

2. OK, new info. I can pair my native remotes using IR only and each will control only the Ultra it is intended to control. But for some reason when the Harmony uses the fall-back, it does not ALWAYS limit itself to just the IR signal that is paired with the unit it is trying to control. It seems to SOMETIMES use other IR signals as well.....Which in my mind is another bug within the band-aid.

As a test, I did the electrical tape solution and sure enough it completely solved the multiple units responding issue, but this buffering problem that the Harmony guy said would occur, absolutely did....unacceptably so....I would say that on at least 25% of my button pushes I would have to repeat it multiple times to get it to work. This is a much worse situation that the occasional "should not respond" issue.

The Harmony guy predicted I would feel this way and said that my real options at this point are:

a) They fix the problem with the IP over WIFI problems. How long will this take? He is looking it to it and will call back tomorrow with an update.
b) I just live with the problem (whichever one I prefer)
c) I get a new remote. He gave me the names of their major high end competitors (URC/Savant/Control 4). I called two of them today and they do not have a solution that would work. Note that I am not able to run wires from a hub to my units.

I am really blown away that this may not be a fixable problem (at least not without construction or accepting exposed wires).
Consumer grade URC’s like the Harmony line are designed to satisfy the typical consumer use cases. As long as they are able to satisfy 90% or so of the typical consumer use cases they are fine with that. Unfortunately I would say your use case falls outside that parameter. Not that what you want to do is wrong it’s just that it’s not the typical use case. Their are custom/pro solutions that could certainly satisfy your requirements but they are costly.

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post #4335 of 4663 Old 10-31-2019, 06:08 PM
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2. OK, new info. I can pair my native remotes using IR only and each will control only the Ultra it is intended to control. But for some reason when the Harmony uses the fall-back, it does not ALWAYS limit itself to just the IR signal that is paired with the unit it is trying to control. It seems to SOMETIMES use other IR signals as well.....Which in my mind is another bug within the band-aid.
A quick fix to the bug by Harmony is a long shot.


It is surprising that the native remotes can do this, but if you are sure then you should be able to "learn" all those commands to the HE. The "learning" process will be a bit tedious as all the commands need to be captured, but it is a one-time activity. This might be the optimal solution. After doing this you can keep or do away with the IP commands to the Roku's.
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post #4336 of 4663 Old 10-31-2019, 06:25 PM
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Maybe it’s been answered but ever since the new update to Apple TV, my Logitech Harmony Elite won’t turn on the Apple TV. Is there some new command I need to add?
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post #4337 of 4663 Old 10-31-2019, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Zone View Post
Ugh....Frying pan/Fire.

1. The IR "fall back" function is an attempted band-aid to a known bug that Harmony has with IP control. Rather than fixing this bug that is associated with the Harmony Elite (HE) buffering with Wifi (which causes the user to have to press a button multiple times to get a response), they implemented this IR fall-back feature.

That's a frustrating bug - explains why I so often want to chuck the remote at the wall. Maybe also explains why my IP devices frequently fail to turn off when I hit the power off button, but subsequently do when I hit the "fix" button. I'll raise a ticket with Logitech and see if more people complaining about it will help. The IP control was the main reason I replaced my 1100 with the elite.
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post #4338 of 4663 Old 10-31-2019, 07:13 PM
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Trying to post a pic of the room...not a good pic, but if it uploads, you will get the idea...


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Maybe it’s been answered but ever since the new update to Apple TV, my Logitech Harmony Elite won’t turn on the Apple TV. Is there some new command I need to add?


Yes there was a change. Add the “Menu” command at the end of the start sequence of the Activity.


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post #4340 of 4663 Old 11-01-2019, 04:06 AM
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I will give the guy I talked to credit. He conceded that there ability to handle IP is not ready for prime time and a low priority of the company.

Once he understood my situation he also commented on his own that he hopes I am not trying to use activities for my TVs/Rokus.

He also confirmed that the HE is designed for "Single Stack" solutions, not my application, but it should still work for me.
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post #4341 of 4663 Old 11-01-2019, 04:19 AM
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Harmony Elite

OK, time for another mea culpa from me...



A couple of replies in this thread indicated that they were surprised that I did not have this issue with native remotes, only the HE. That got me thinking and I agreed that it did not quite make sense, but that really has been my experience (or so I thought).



So I ran another test. I have noticed that the one time I can virtually be assured that the HE would control multiple units when it should only control one is when I first "turn on my room" (see pic above). Once I get things fired up and do a few things (navigate in each Roku, after fighting through the multi-unit control problem for a while), things calm down and things work as they should. But then if I go for an hour or so and don't touch anything, the problem will recur (but only for a little while again).



So when I awoke this morning, I turned my WIFI in the house completely off (unplugged). I went up to "the room", turned on all the TVs and was at the Roku splash screen for all 3 TV/Roku combos. Then I used the native remove for Roku 2 and pressed HOME, while pointing at Roku 3.......All that responded was Roku 2 (as expected). Now remember the native remotes are RF too, so it is not surprising that Roku 2 responded.....So far so good......Then I picked up the remote for Roku 3 and did the same thing, and WTH happened?!?!, Roku 1 & 3 responded. Then I quickly used the arrow buttons and only Roku 3 responded.....Then I picked up Roku 1 remote and it would only control Roku 1.



So, those who challenged me were right, this problem is not COMPLETELY unique to the HE. However, the problem is far greater with HE.



This brings me back to the advice from the Harmony Guy. The only solid solution to this is to get those used to be controlled via IP (and only IP).



If Harmony cannot come through, I will have to call a pro.



Thanks for your patience w/ this pain in the a$$ issue.

Last edited by Joe Zone; 11-01-2019 at 05:51 AM.
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post #4342 of 4663 Old 11-01-2019, 08:12 AM
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Posted 5 pages ago: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/93-re...l#post58667418
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post #4344 of 4663 Old 11-01-2019, 09:57 AM
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Thanks. Missed it the first time apparently. For some reason, your post link doesn't take me directly there, but I see it now at post #4211 . Surprised it hasn't sparked any conversation (last time or this time).
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Seems to me tha unless all material comes from a single streaming source, URC's will still be needed.
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Seems to me tha unless all material comes from a single streaming source, URC's will still be needed.
I agree, I still have a ton of devices and will be using the Harmony remotes for a long time to come.

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post #4347 of 4663 Old 11-01-2019, 10:59 AM
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Let's just hope Harmony supports them as long as we need them.

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post #4348 of 4663 Old 11-01-2019, 03:33 PM
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OK...much to report...

Before speaking w/ Harmony again, an idea dawned on me.. Not ideal, but better than current mess.....Use Harmony for all devices in room, but use Roku app on phone to control Rokus...Worked like a charm (so far). Will continue to test. Will have to use two devices to control room, rather than one, but I always have my phone anyway so that is not too bad.

Had call with Harmony later in day. Guy from CA reported the following:

1. The have the buffering issue resolved for Roku Stick profiles.
2. I cannot trick their software into thinking my Ultra is a stick
3. They need to create a new function/profile for Ultra so customers can choose IP only or IP+IR.
4. I agreed to be a beta tester for them once that work is done.
5. Have another call with them next Friday (unless he calls earlier) to checl on status of their work.

Productive day.
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post #4349 of 4663 Old 11-02-2019, 04:06 PM
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Has anybody seen anything like this? The line on the screen came out of nowhere.


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post #4350 of 4663 Old 11-02-2019, 09:39 PM
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Has anybody seen anything like this? The line on the screen came out of nowhere.


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