[bsd]

As far as I know, 1080P will not be a viable consumer standard for quite some time. I believe that some shows are "filmed" using HD cams in 1080P and then broadcast to the consumer in either 1080i or 720P. This give the flexibility to use any number of formats. The reason why 1080P will not be used now has to do with increased bandwidth to use it.


Bottom line, don't wait for it. You could be waiting for a really loooong time.


Not sure of the plans for HD-DVDs.


-Brett

 

[Man E]

For the financially fit, I believe that Faradojia (or however its spelled) offers a 1080p scaler. I didn't ask for the price because I already know...



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The button is labeled "Play", not "Pay". STOP the MPAA!

Our Silent Angels

 

[kuzia]

You probably asked about native, not upconverted 1080P?

1080P Hollywood reserved for themself.

There should be a reason to go to the movie theater, should it?

So, yes, you will see 1080P soon...

Coming to the theater near you...

 

[Jeff T]

Actually, I don't think there's a bandwidth issue as far as transmission. The two frame rates (I believe) are 24 fps and 30 fps. This should be well within the bandwidth of 1080i.


The issue is probably that no current consumer equipment supports it. An HDTV would indeed need higher bandwidth, assuming it would be doubling the 30 fps to 60 fps. But this is well within the bandwidth limitations of most front projectors.


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- Jeff

 

[majortom]

Some stations transmit film as 1080P 24 to save bandwidth. Most sets with convert that to 1080I 60.


/carmi

 

[holtwm]

Another newbie question. I was looking at the ATSC Digital TV Formats and noticed that 1080p exists at two different frame rates. When will HDTV's exist that support this? Will any programming be available in this mode? Will HD-DVD's support this? Is is worth it to wait for this?


Will

 

[Glimmie]

1080p/24 is currently used in most HDTV film origionated post production for one basic reason. The resulting master can be transferred to ANY ATSC format without motion artifacts. One a signal is interlaced, it can never be 100% put back to progressive, to spite what consumer line doubler companies say. 1080P/24 will be the choice for digital cimena becuase if the film frame rate is only 24fps, why waste storage on 30fps.


"Hollywood reserved for themself" Please let's not get into one of these MPAA conspericy theories. Anyone can use 1080P/24 if they wish. The reason the studios use it is simply a technical advantage, nothing more.


Curently no HDTV broadcast facility handels 1080P/24. The reason is that their automation software thinks in terms of 30 frames per second. Introducing 24frame material would require extensive software upgrades. Now once in the MPEG encoder, the 3/2 could be pulled out but current ATSC encoders don't do this. I think in the near future 3/2 removal in the encoder will happen because of bandwidth waste. But I don't think the actual broadcast plant will become dual standard (1080i/30 1080p/24). There are just too many traps.


aka Glimmie,

Manager of Systems Engineering

Laser Pacific Media Corporation

 

[Glimmie]

I missed something else very important. You can't view natve 1080p/24. Well, you can, but the flicker is terrible. In our facility where we process a lot of 1080p/24 material, we always add 3/2 at the monitor. And the currrent standatd is actually 24fs meaning the data is split across the two fields resulting an a 48hz frame rate. That's still too slow for viewing. Note that the 48fs IS NOT INTERLACE. It's merely a way to maintain compatability with 1080i equipoment.


So even if you get 1080p/24 to the home you are going to have to add 3/2 to watch it. Of course you could triple the frame rate too. But remember there are only 24 "moves" per second. Nothing is going to change that and no matter how fast you dulpicate frames, thaty race car is still going to studder around the track if shot on film..

 

[Bob Utne]

Glimmie,


As the recognized HDTV post-production expert in the US, would appreciate your opinion as to what you would purchase, within a $10k budget, as a home theater set up.


Can a decent front-projection set up come in at around $10k or should one wait for the new LCoS projectors.


Thanks, Bob

 

[John Mason]

Glad Glimmie cleared up the confusion. But someone initially said, I thought correctly, that 1080p transmission creates a bandwidth problem, and someone else said it shouldn't. My understanding is that 1080i transmissions diminish bandwidth requirements because 1/30-second images are sent in halves, 1/60 second apart (interlaced). Progressive 1080p images aren't sent in halves, but all at once. Thought I'd read that the current MPEG2 ATSC encoding standard could not handle 1080p. Perhaps someone can pin this down. It's clear that displays must have wider-bandwidth electronics and more-robust costlier sweep circuits (CRTs) for 1080p. -- John


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STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST

 

[Richard Casto]

Quote:

Originally posted by John Mason: Glad Glimmie cleared up the confusion. But someone initially said, I thought correctly, that 1080p transmission creates a bandwidth problem, and someone else said it shouldn't. My understanding is that 1080i transmissions diminish bandwidth requirements because 1/30-second images are sent in halves, 1/60 second apart (interlaced). Progressive 1080p images aren't sent in halves, but all at once. Thought I'd read that the current MPEG2 ATSC encoding standard could not handle 1080p. Perhaps someone can pin this down. It's clear that displays must have wider-bandwidth electronics and more-robust costlier sweep circuits (CRTs) for 1080p. -- John

I hope I don't get this totally wrong but here is how I see it...


1080i @ 60fps = 2 interlaced fields of 540 lines every 1/60th of sec = 30 sets of 1080 lines in one second.


1080p @ 24fps = 1 progressive field of 1080 lines every 1/24th of sec = 24 sets of 1080 lines in one second.


This means you transmit more data with 1080i/60 than you do with 1080p/24. 1080p/24 is not a free ride. As already mentioned, you have less 'moves' per second, so you get motion issues in fast pans, etc. due to the lower FPS, but you do get a progressive picture (less interlace issues).


Did I get this right?


Richard

 

[Wendell R. Breland]

1080i, 30fps, Data Rate* 746

1080p, 30fps, Data Rate* 746

1080p, 24fps, Data Rate* 597


* Megabits Per Second, 4:2:0 sampling = 12 bits/pixel, before compression.


------------------

Wendell

Technical Services Supervisor

MAETV

 

[holtwm]

What I guess I was referring to was broadcasting of 1080p at 60 fps. This was discussed in an article in the 11/98 issue of Home Theater magazine. It said the following:


"Eventually, the high-quality format will be 1080p/60, but it's still to big to fit into the 6-megahertz broadcast channel allotted for digital TV. Most experts feel it will take three to five years for compression technology to advance enough to cut the 1080p data rate by more than half so it can be broadcast."


So it has been two and a half years since then. Are we any closer to this being a reality? Thanks.


Will

 

[LeeAntin]

I am curious why people think that we as consumers will have access to 1080P? Our HDTV system is based on 1080i and 720P. The professional market will use 1080P. Why do people believe that there will be no difference (consumer versus pro)? Just because the specs on on a chart doesn't mean that we will have them.


It has been stated by many people in the industry that 1080P will be used to "get rid" of 35mm film for TV programming and movies. The head of JVC professional products stated a few months back, when he returned from a meeting in Wash. DC with the studios and the movie theater owners, that 1080P would be reserved for D-Cinema and that consumers would not have access to 1080P.


Until such time that something like 1440P or 2160P arises, there will be a dividing line between 720P/1080i and 1080P.


Our NTSC TV system has lasted for over 50 years. Does anyone really believe that out existing HDTV system is going to last less than 7 to 10 years before a major upgrade is made?


Lee

 

[Wendell R. Breland]

Will,

Quote:

Originally posted by holtwm: What I guess I was referring to was broadcasting of 1080p at 60 fps. So it has been two and a half years since then. Are we any closer to this being a reality?

See my previous post, there is no 1080p @ 60fps in the current ATSC lineup. There is 720p @ 60fps.


------------------

Wendell

Technical Services Supervisor

MAETV

 

[David Panko]

Lee,


Even if broadcasters don't send 1080p, it's well within the capabilites of current HTPC's to do reverse 3/2 pulldown to convert 1080i to 1080p. If the HDTV is sourced from film (like movies and most primetime) the end result is the same. We have the horsepower, we just need the software.


Every digital projector is natively progressive. The D-ILA's can do 1024p right now and the next generation will be able display full 1080p HDTV. We're not too far away from 1080p and there's nothing stopping consumers from using the technology.


Cheers,

Dave.

 

[ernie]

On the display side of this topic, the company Digital Reflection makes

display components that are capable of doing 1080p/72. These are

reflective LCDs, but before you say "screen door", let me say that I

have seen a prototype and it looks really good. No screen door,

really red reds (no orange cast), great contrast, etc. For more

info see their web site at:

http://www.digital-reflection.com/


The real kicker is that this technology will considerably reduce the

price of RP HDTV sets.


On the production side, I guess somebody will have to shell out a few

bucks for that software upgrade.


On the transmission side, the station could switch modes. 1080p/24

for movies, 1080i/30 for other material.


Ernie

 

[LeeAntin]

Dave,


We are not discussing upconverting 1080i to 1080P. The question is will we the consumer see native 1080P? My opinion says no...not for a long time if ever.


Lee

 

[David Panko]

Lee,


My point is that film-source 1080i, upconverted to 1080p using reverse 3/2 pulldown is native 1080p. You're just undoing what the broadcaster did to create 1080i out of the original 1080p. All the information needed to reconstruct the original native 1080p is contained in the 1080i broadcast. It's the same as using a HTPC to get native 480p off a DVD.


As Wendell alluded to, broadcasters have an incentive to send 1080p rather than 1080i on film-source material since it takes less bandwidth. Future encoders might do exactly that.


Cheers,

Dave.


[This message has been edited by David Panko (edited 04-03-2001).]

 

[Glimmie]

Quote:

Originally posted by LeeAntin: I am curious why people think that we as consumers will have access to 1080P? Our HDTV system is based on 1080i and 720P. The professional market will use 1080P. Why do people believe that there will be no difference (consumer versus pro)? Just because the specs on on a chart doesn't mean that we will have them. It has been stated by many people in the industry that 1080P will be used to "get rid" of 35mm film for TV programming and movies. The head of JVC professional products stated a few months back, when he returned from a meeting in Wash. DC with the studios and the movie theater owners, that 1080P would be reserved for D-Cinema and that consumers would not have access to 1080P. Until such time that something like 1440P or 2160P arises, there will be a dividing line between 720P/1080i and 1080P. Our NTSC TV system has lasted for over 50 years. Does anyone really believe that out existing HDTV system is going to last less than 7 to 10 years before a major upgrade is made? Lee

JVC is hardly a major voice in the broadcast industry. They may be in the professional video industry but not broadcast level. 1080P was not specifically developed for D Cinema. It was developed as single standard compatable with all ATSC table 3 formats. Consumers will not have access to 1080P because it will not be a broadcast format for reasons of 1080i comapatability within the plant. Some think they can simply run 1080p/24 then switch to 1080i/30. It doesn't work that way in a modern broadcast plant.