AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,181 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was an attendee last week for company wide operational meetings held at one of the country's largest CD/DVD manufacturing plants. In the pre-meeting meet & greet, I asked one of the advanced media operations people I was introduced to, if the next technolgical step in DVD production, once all the piracy and copyright issues are resolved, would be 720P or 1080I. His opinion was that the format would be 1080P.


If that turns out to be the case, since only an extremely small number of consumers in the near future will have displays capable of displaying that format without downconversion, would we be able to assume the players would have the ability for the user to pick the output by selective option, such as 1080I or 720P or 480P? Or, is that prohibitively expensive processing to bundle into a player?


------------------

Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
578 Posts
"-since only an extremely small number of consumers in the near future will have displays capable of displaying that format without downconversion-"


Are you assuming that 1080P HD-DVD player'll be available in the near future? The whole subject is so up in the air it's crazy.

To answer your question.. I'm sure downconversion will be available and no problem when these palyers finally come out.


The main thing is the Hollywood. 1080P is such a high res. format, and nothing is copyproof, that they're just scared of their work getting stolen.


C-3D is making prototype multi-layer DVDs that use normal red laser technology to hold 50-100+ gig of storage. That's plenty to spare amount of storage for one HD-DVD movie of any length plus audio encoded in PCM, DD, DTS, DVD-A, and SACD!!!


Blue lasers are also on the way that'll read/record 20 gig per layer. More than enough for the same HD-DVD I just described on a typical 2-layer DVD.


But wait, there's more... the combo of blue laser AND C-3D multilayer discs will hold more than a TERABYTE! Can you say Library of Congress in a 2 disc set! -hah
 

·
AVS Forum Special Member
Joined
·
11,139 Posts
IMO, 1080p DVDs would be nice if they'd also build a lot of flexibility into players. For starters, you could at least have a full 19.3 Mbps signal available for display as 1080i on most HDTVs (via conversion within the player). At the moment, even if you make your own tape recording, you're likely to be receiving (and taping) less than 19.3 Mbps because the bit rate can be (and is) set at whatever a station pleases (see my 6/23 post here ). Since the DVD isn't limited to an OTA channel's 6 Mhz bandwidth, you could also have more than 19.3 Mbps. Also, rather than prefiltering DVDs and trimming away tons of fine detail to avoid artifacts, the player could have a variable-filtering feature, via built-in firmware. Viewers--and sets--may react to artifacting differently. As for displaying 1080p, let's hope the player would have a lot of frame rate adjustments and features you'd normally find only on a computer card. Oh yes, it should grind coffee beans, too. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif -- John


------------------

STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST




[This message has been edited by John Mason (edited 06-26-2001).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,225 Posts
If the past history of VHS and S-VHS and Laserdisk is any indication, HD-DVD will take a decade to arrive and never make it past the minuscule videophile market to achieve mass acceptance. Remember that the DVD player is currently the most successfull consumer item ever, and the 2nd wave (progressive scan) is just ramping up.


Unless a consumer has an HD-DVD capable display, they have a strong motive to oppose any new standard that would produce a disk that could not be played on a standard DVD player.


Gary
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,227 Posts
Well all I can say is... I am that margin segment...


I am sure the most flexible player will always be a software one... and I feel fairly committed to that flexibility..


I would be happy to pay a margin for this medium as by the time it reaches me, my display device will also be ahead of the curve...


At this moment I am crippled by Europes failure to commit to HD rollout and so am slavering over the idea of jumping from 480 to 1080 !! (as I know other members are... you know who you are !! buying Hipix cards at a premium just to have one or 2 things piped over to you !!! now that's dedication !!!!)..


The mind boggles...


------------------

[email protected]
HTPC without using windows... GUI Front Ends for Home Theater


[This message has been edited by Phat Phreddy (edited 06-23-2001).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,644 Posts
To promote acceptance of HD-DVD, it might be a good idea to produce "hybrid" discs. That is, standard DVD and HD-DVD would be combined on the same disc. Sony is taking a similar approach with SACD discs that include a CD layer for backwards compatibility.


I think that the 1080i vs 1080p issue for HD-DVD is analogous to the 480i vs 480p issue for standard DVD. Most standard TV sets only display 480i and cannot take advantage of 480p output from some current DVD players. Similarly, most HDTV sets only display 1080i and cannot take advantage of 1080p output from some future HD-DVD players.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,184 Posts
There's no difference between 1080I and 1080P when talking about a digital HDTV signal of a film-sourced motion picture. Any MPEG decoder/HDTV decoder/HD-DVD player could create either a 1080I or 1080P output signal using flags or 3-2 recocnition just like we do with 480I/480P DVD players. The advantage to "officially" making HD-DVD 1080P compatible is that:


A. people who don't "get it" won't think that 720P is better because they won't think that the only other option is 1080I


and


B. vertical detail filtering would not have to be applied in the 1080-line master, preserving maxiumum resolution in a true 1080P output image. The HD-DVD player could apply vertical filtering itself when it needs to downconvert to 1080I etc.


Remember people...if you're talking film source material...it doesn't take any more space to store the image as 1080I or 1080P...it's the same fields/frames either way. Also, the host of digital projection technologies being perfected as we speak will all afford us with incredible 1080P vertical resolution in a few years...so we should make sure we let whoever "they" are out there that we want out 1080P HD-DVD!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,351 Posts
Gentlemen, start thinking outside the box.


Native 1.78:1 ratio, 1920x1080p with 24 fps & 30 fps modes (fully downconvertable in the player to 1080i, 720p, 480p, and 480i). Much higher and faster bitrates than broadcast specs. This has got to be the ultimate format guys!


Lossless compressed or only very slightly lossy compressed video (depends on the storage needs). No more loss of detail, pixelization, or any other compression artifact!


DVI connection or ultra high bandwidth FireWire (not the current spec.) digital video interface since I'd want the de-compression inside the player, not the TV if possible. De-encryption (to appease Hollywood) can be done inside the TV.


1.0 to 7.1 channel discrete DSD encoding (lossless compressed; hopefully the 8 bit DSD version). My second choice would be 1.0 to 7.1 channel discrete 24 bit/96 kHz PCM (lossless compressed; no audio watermarking); if the source was only stereo or Dolby Surround, then it would bump to 24 bit/192 kHz PCM. 7.1 discrete surround fits the THX EX speaker layout, but includes discrete, full range stereo back surround channels. Too cool! This high resolution track would be for the movie or TV show's original language soundtrack.


A couple low bitrate DTS or Dolby Digital tracks for either a backwards compatible soundtrack or audio commentary to accompany the movie. Let's face it, audio commentaries don't need to be high fidelity.


High rez. player generated subtitles. Not the ATARI quality crap we get now. All subtitles remain in the lower part of the picture area and not "spilling over" into the lower letter box bar.


--------------


2.35:1 anamorphic mode encoded on the disc (it's kinda like 16x9 enhancement now on present day 4:3 DVDs). This allows all of the 1920x1080p resoluton to be used for this super wide ratio. Any ratio 2:1 up to 2.35:1 would also use this 2.35:1 anamorphic enhancement with slight black bars on the sides. 2.55:1 and 2.76:1 ratio films (which are very rare) would again use the 2.35:1 anamorphic enhancement, but with slight black letter box bars on the top and bottom.


1.33:1, 1.37:1, 1.66:1, 1.78:1 (native), and 1.85:1 ratio films and TV shows would stay within the 1.78:1 native HDTV frame, but with appropriate black matting on the sides or top and bottom (1.85:1) to keep the intended theatrical ratio.


Boom! You just set yourselves up for a constant height, variable width 2.35:1 (with velvet matting for a 2.40:1 ratio if needbe) front projection system when used with the appropriate anamorphic lens that uses practically all of the available resolution all the time!


There would be 2.35:1 anamorphic downconversion via quality scaling for fixed 1.78:1 RPTV, plasma, and tube displays.


-----------


All other supplements can go on another disc so all available space can be used for the best audio and video quality. The movie or TV show comes first, video supplements second IMHO. Movies longer than the "average" running length can be split up and put on another disc so the quality is maintained.


What do you think?


Dan




------------------

STOP DFAST and The MPAA!!




[This message has been edited by Dan Hitchman (edited 06-25-2001).]
 

·
AVS Forum Special Member
Joined
·
11,139 Posts
Lots of goodies here. But, unless I missed mention of it, I'd also want access to all those 1080P stored bits in an SDI format . In the forum link cited this is achieved by a DVD player modification. Essentially, as I understand SDI, it enables you to pipe video images from a DVD in purely digital format--without ever having to convert them to an analog electronic signal.


To link this up with this forum's topic, you could pipe DVD bits directly to the individual micromirror transistors in a DLP, or liquid-crystal pixel transistors in a D-ILA or other LCD display. No artifact-inducing digital-to-analog (or A-to-D) conversions. -- John


------------------

STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST


[This message has been edited by John Mason (edited 06-26-2001).]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,351 Posts
However, I read in the newest Widescreen Review that currently SDI doesn't have the bandwidth to handle the huge data stream for 1080p or 1080i signals.


DVI and the newest version of ultra high bandwidth FireWire are both digital interfaces as well. They could also be sent digitally to the fixed panel devices in digital TVs and projectors.


Dan


------------------

STOP DFAST and The MPAA!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
557 Posts
Dan-


Don't forget 60 fps. Fast action content, like sports, needs the faster frame rate to look decent. Also, bandwidth will always be precious, so I'd be surprised if a non-compressed version was ever offered. Video compression can be surprisingly effective, especially if more advanced compression techniques are used, rather than MPEG-2, which I believe will go by the wayside. The video compression examples seen thus far (DirectTV, DTV, DVD) definitely leave room for improvement http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif !.


John-


I believe copy protection issues will prevent the use of SDI in consumer equipment. The SDI hack currently being applied to DVD players is only possible because of a loophole in the the DVD spec, that only prohibited 1394 firewire connections. Hollywood has made it crystal clear that unprotected digital signal connections are off the table.


Also, LCD is actually an analog technology, thus requiring D/A converters. The value for each pixel is converted to a voltage that's applied to the LCD matrix to achieve the desired color. DLP is the only truly digital display. The digital to analog conversion actually takes place on our retina!


Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,184 Posts
Yep. And 10 years ago when I started collecting laserdisc I also started dreaming of a the day when they could put an entire movie on a CD-sized disc with better image quality than the dot-crawl/comb-artifacts riddled NTSC laserdisc image that wouldn't require a side-change every 30 to 60 minutes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
594 Posts
It's not that I don't believe in the technology. it is out there already. They could do it tommorow if they wanted. What makes me so pessimistic is the MPAA. I don't think they will ever allow us to own copies of movies in 1080I let alone 1080P. They are just way to paranoid. They barely let DVD go through.


Kevin C. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


------------------

Stop DFAST.

Boycott JVC!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,160 Posts
Kevin,


In some ways I share you skepticism about the MPAA allowing 1080p transfers out. But they didn't really "allow" DVDs to succeed. They tried their best to stop DVDs, supporting DIVX and withholding DVD titles as long as they could.


Likewise, they tried their best to stop VCRs from being sold.


But now that they have "lost" those battles (and made billions of dollars) they are resolutely facing off against HDTV media for home viewing (and owning).


The success of DVD both advances the public's perception of home video quality, and at the same time DVD's success has slowed the growth of HDTV (from a studio point of view).

DVD is now a cash cow, and the studios can take years releasing their video libraries onto DVD, which look quite good on today's TVs.


Also the studios are looking at migrating their movie distribution to broadcasted HD digital media, using their 1080p mastered movies. And they are not enthusiastic giving the public their movies in the same 1080p format, and risk the free distribution over the net (in the future).


The electronics manufacturers are trying to sell new equipment, so they need to have a "better" product, and will be pushing for technological advancement and HDTV (if not pushing together).


I think that eventually HDTV on DVDs will happen, but there will have to be some big support from a major manufacturer/media producer like Sony to push HD-DVD with both the hardware and the content.


There is a possibility that all of the studios and electronic manufacturers could stand together on this to stall HDTV indefinitely but I doubt it.


I think that there will be HD-DVD media format wars like Beta/VHS, DVD/DIVX, right after the RGB/Y-PbPr vs. DFAST/5C Firewire/DVI HDCP battle is resolved (next year?).

And we haven't yet heard the first shot fired.


-Dean.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top