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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I made a thread in the speakers section ( HERE ), and decided to go paint by num... er I mean "Do-It-Yerself (with help)" despite my abysmal woodworking skills. If need be, I'll just spend months whittling out enclosures (well not really, but with my OCD it's not unlikely).


I just couldn't decide, and I enjoy messing about with electronics (especially computers, love customizing my computers (ps3-linux before update killed the pinguin, archlinux/gentoo and non-explorer shell windows, and a rooted HTC Inspire with Jelly Bean). I knew there were schematics and diagrams for some popular DIY kits when I started my search for speakers, but didn't look to much into it until this past weekend. I'm amazed at the number of plans avalible, but did not expect to have so many very well documented ones! I thank everyone who has shared such materials with the world.



With so many options available, and my limited experience, I figured I'd ask again on the forum to help guide my decisions to point me the right way.

Budget: ~$2500-$3000, planning to build in steps--LCR, subs, surrounds, wides/heights, most likely in that order. With that in mind, the listed Budget is for as many upgrades I can get now, and will get the rest over time as money allows, so the budget isn't really much of a concern but I want to stay within reason for my room (no room for more exotic designs, could only use an array for front L/R but that is just to much overkill lol).

Receiver: Denon 4520CI, no external amps.

Use: Mostly computer gaming (moreso than consoles) and multi-channel music (like Pink Floyd's The Dark Side of the Moon: Immersion's 5.1 mixes) and movies the least.

Requirements: LCR idealy all the same, I'll be moving the tv to suit center channel size (LCR size can be tower or bookshelf, size is no issue). All other speakers must be near walls, with Surround L & Rear L/R exclusively wall mounted. Surround R and Wides have room for a speaker stand if it makes any difference. Heights need to hang from the ceiling (any mounts for this?)

Rear R speaker, thinking about replacing my door with something heavy duty and very secure when closed to get the rear speakers at ear level.

I am limited with my options, as I cannot build a crossover from scratch. I need a schematic for that, which means I can't just buy quality drivers and slap em in a box, they gotta be tuned and optomized which I lack the skills and tools needed.



With so much discrete channels in gaming I think timbre matching all around is strongly recommended for smooth immersion and proper imaging, especially behind you. My Room is ~1,000 cubic feet, with a 7.9' ceiling.

If I had to pick one I'd prefer a speaker that excells with multi-channel music over one that excells at the theatre experience. I think with only one seat to worry about anything should be great for both.


I was first interested in the Statements from the feedback about their amazing mid range performance. I can easily use three as LCR, but was concerned about timbre matching since Statement Monitors /Minis all require 1-2' from a wall which would place the side L/R extremely close, basically within arm distance away.

Next was any SEOS design, figured the great waveguide would be great for my room. Was thinking a *-15's for the LCR, and a mix of 8/10/12's for the rest where appropriate. Again I was concerned with timbre. Am I correct in think matching waveguide size and crossover designer is more important than matching compression drivers for these speakers? I've been trying to figure out how SEOS kits at diysoundgroup are ranked for performance. I did find the spreadsheet, but It's unclear to this layman. Specifically the differences between the two *-15 kits, and between the alpha-12, deltalite-II and fusion-12. Aside from the crossovers I think I need to find info on the differences between their woofer drivers, right?

Kahnspires are next to research, but others on my list are Dayton RS 3-ways, Modula, Natalie P, and some of their variants.


Now for some questions: How do any of the above compare to another, either listed or not (not limited to DIY speakers). I'd like to compare their quality, relatively.

In your opinion, are any of these better suited to my room than the others?

Any recommendations around this price range that I should add to my research list?

I'm very interested in a relative comparison between Statements, Khanspires and any SEOS.


I almost purchased the SEOS sets for LCR's last night on impulse, but forced myself to wait until I'm confident with my decision. Hopefully this thread will not only extend my research options, but also help me make a final decision more quickly than google searching (only so many hours in a day, and that's not enough for this forum lol). If no other options would provide equal or better mids/highs I'll probbably stick with a SEOS variant, I find the design is more interesting and I believe the waveguide would be a great asset for my room (if I'm wrong, please explain why--I like learning).

All replies are much appreciated!




Here's the layout from the previous thread, as well as notes:

-Circle is the MLP. Again, only I will use this room so sweet spot size is no issue.

-Current speakers are shown (7.1 standard layout), with an area marking where I plan to add Wides and Heights. Heights would be ~45° vertically somewhere in said locations, hanging down from the ceiling.

-Bed stays, but the desk will get replaced if needed to accomodate center speaker.

 

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You're not going to find anything but praise for the SEOS designs around here, and they will work extremely well in a typical room due to the well controlled dispersion pattern. I wouldnt worry about having a different horn/CD for the surrounds, but I would try to stick with the same horn/CD for the front height channels if possible, so the smallest design using the SEOS 12 and DNA 360.


The Zephyr would be my pick for LCR.
 

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Wow,that is a small room to try fitting all of those speakers in. In a similar sized room, I did a 5.1 setup with all the speakers about 3-4ft away from my head. Maybe start with a 5.1 setup with various iterations of the Kahnspires? Quality first, then quantity.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yeah my room in small, and it's a crazy desire to have so many speakers in it, but I'm crazy. It's all for fun and the experience will be a great asset to help design a dedicated room in the future.


The budget is for whatever I can get now, it's more of a limit for the LCR's. I didn't want the budget listed to be a factor for the other speakers, which I'll also be building in pairs down the road. This lets me decide on a plan and schedule for many christmas days this year


I do listen "loud", but that's relative to the room size. Around -40dB to -20dB depending on source quality, but for movies I have to get around -15dB for voices to be heard well (center is from JBL Cinema 300 HTIB set).



As for placement, Only the rears and left surround are very restricted. The worst being the left surround speaker. It's stuck to being in the window sill. At ear level the box depth cannot exceed 12 inches, but around 2-3 feet above ear level I have enough space to use the 2cuft SEOS flatpacks if I wished to do so, but probbably stay with the smaller ones (as long as it wouldn't produce noticable timbre issues).

I gotta compromise somewhere, and the room width is not frendly with most designs, like the Statements already mentioned.


If I'm wrong on hyperfocusing on timbre being a huge deal, given my room restrictions, I could ignore them to broaden my avalible options. Doing this would for example, make the Statement Monitors possible assuming my mock-up box isn't lying. I could barely meet their required boundary offsets with some interesting door and bed mounted speakers. I'd be at a loss for what to use for the surround L/R's though, I think I'd still want to have similar drivers to have them blend with the rest.


Again, this is the biggest reason I was looking into some SEOS kits, and currently the most likely choice, but would like for others to toss their hats in the card. I want to extend my options just incase anyone might know, in their opinion or from their experience, that might be something else may be better suited for my room (or stop me from making a decision based on bad/incorrect information). Maybe SEOS are perfect for my room, maybe Khanspires with In-Khan-neatos matching surrounds would be better, or maybe it's worth compromising surround L/R's for having better speakers everywhere else, it's impossible to tell without building, but I'd put more value on someones subjective opinion as they most likely have had more experience to influence them.



Actually, let me confirm something. I've been under the assumption that as long as no speaker is within arm distance that Audyssey could compensate enough to virtually distance all speakers to whatever the furthest away from me is, is this correct?



I plan to look into the Khanspires and variants next, but I've been busy trying to find retail-diy or diy-diy comparisons/opinions to relatively gauge design quality and differences.
 

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Timbre across the front three, is IMO very important, hence the reason they're called "mains" Mains shouldn't be just the L/R's, but L/C/R.

Now if the front three match each other exactly, IE, they're the same speaker (think 3 identical towers) that would be best. The next step down from there is to use the same tweeters, mids, and woofers, along with as close to an identical crossover as possible with the L/R's being towers and the C being a traditional horizontal center. The next step down is a C speaker that uses either a different tweeter, mid or woofer. You're losing timbre.

If the rears all match each other, that's great. You could have front speakers A (3 of them, 5 of them, whatever) and rear speakers B (2, 4, 6 of them, whatever) and call it a good compromise. It would be best to have 5/7 or even 11 identical speakers, but come'on, how realistic is it for a person to have 11 Dynamic 4T's/Khanspires/etc... tower speakers in a room?


So that said, build some nice L/C/R's that can be put in a bigger room later (something you don't want to upgrade), a good sub or two, and then 2 or 4 surround bookshelfs that match as close as possible.


If it were me, here is the order I would build as money came in. (and why)


1) L/R's (You gotta start somewhere)

2) Sub(s) (The next most important speakers to L/R's, which are your starting point)

3) 2 surrounds (2 surrounds are more important than a center because these are the starting point of "surround sound")

4) Center (Ties the front all together, but is optional in small rooms)

5) 2 more surrounds (not needed in small rooms, but become increasingly more important in bigger rooms)

6) More subs (Once you have 7 channels of audio, you're going to be putting out enough sound in a big enough room to want more oompf down low)

7) More surrounds in whatever path required to get to 11 channels. (Beh, after 7 channels, it doesn't matter what happens)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
After much debate, I decided to just go with my first set, LCR's, being some SEOS Fusion-12 "Tempest". Can't wait to get started!


I was undecided as to which set to get, between the 15" or 12" woofer kits, but opted to go for a 12" version because 1) I could always use whatever I got now someplace else, and 2) be lazy not having to cut my own box.

I OCD enough on things I figured I'd save the money to get some subs next.


Now to go read the many threads on sub. Budget I'm alloting myself for my space for subs only ~$1000, includes any extras like amps or dsp's. I'm planing to get at least two, but would settle for one if the end result would be a much deeper reaching result. I'm not to worried about sound modes for my space, or atleast I hope so, as any subs will most likely be very close to me.



I had a crazy idea of turning the base of my waterbed into a tapped horn sub, but man that is just to much work draining and dismantling the bed. Not to mention being risky having water above them.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber  /t/1471637/11-2-bedroom-options-restrictions-decisions-oh-my#post_23302315


If it were me, here is the order I would build as money came in. (and why)


1) L/R's (You gotta start somewhere)

2) Sub(s) (The next most important speakers to L/R's, which are your starting point)

3) 2 surrounds (2 surrounds are more important than a center because these are the starting point of "surround sound")

4) Center (Ties the front all together, but is optional in small rooms)

5) 2 more surrounds (not needed in small rooms, but become increasingly more important in bigger rooms)

6) More subs (Once you have 7 channels of audio, you're going to be putting out enough sound in a big enough room to want more oompf down low)

7) More surrounds in whatever path required to get to 11 channels. (Beh, after 7 channels, it doesn't matter what happens)

I almost agree with your order. #7 needs to be about #9..#7 and #8 should be more subs.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trepidati0n  /t/1471637/11-2-bedroom-options-restrictions-decisions-oh-my#post_23327276


I almost agree with your order. #7 needs to be about #9..#7 and #8 should be more subs.
Ah ha ha, AVS-DIY never lets me down. This has to be the most basscentric home audio forum there is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Might as well ask, might get better (and quicker) answers to some questions I have made note of while researching.



I'm looking into subs now. Again, ~1,000 cubic feet total room.

Without IB or very large (smaller than a Tuba) how low could I, or should I, go with a budget of ~$1000? I will need an amp for sure, and since I'm not making floorstanding mains I got room for external amps in some TV stands I've been looking at (none of them tilt though, which I want to fix 3D crosstalk, when centered vertically with the LG 55" LM7600).


I actually figured picking out a sub would be pretty straight foward, and it is... if you don't have preferences.

I'd love to reach into the tactile bass range,
 

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*note* My responses will be preceded by "=". They are not the 100% textbook answer, but just my answer. Another person my provide different answers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze_Ice  /t/1471637/11-2-bedroom-options-restrictions-decisions-oh-my#post_23328958


I'm looking into subs now. Again, ~1,000 cubic feet total room.

Without IB or very large (smaller than a Tuba) how low could I, or should I, go with a budget of ~$1000?

=You can go quite low, but output will decrease the lower you go. How loud do you want to play? 80db, 115db? That number will change the frequency at which you can achieve that; The lower the dB's the lower the Hz. That said, anything under 100db and under 15Hz isn't very useful, raise either of those and you're in business.


I see lots of talk about "tuning" for your room. I assume REW and/or WinISD are required to make the most of it, but can I use an Audyssey mic or look into an actual SPL meter and/or something like omnimic?

=Possibly. REW is good because it can show you were in your frequency response you need adjust. I think the audyssey mic works with most USB sound cards, right?


Sealed vs ported vs other: I understand the general purpose but not the specifics. Do subs tuned for infrasonics trade off quality of audible ranges?

=No, infact tuning into the teens or lower helps the quality in the 30+Hz area by reducing box coloration (box effectively works as a BIG sealed box) and subsequently keeps group delay just like a sealed box.


What about port chuffing, more frequent the deeper they go?

=For the same port speed, yes.


For this room size does sealed/ported really matter?

=It always matters, but different rooms lend to different alignments. For your room, since it is so small, I'd lean towards sealed, since twin 12ft ported enclosures would dominate!


Any reason sealed "kits" are more plentiful than ported ones?

=Easier to build and allows folks more realestate to run MORE subs. It's easier place 3, 4ft sealed enclosures than it is 1, 12ft ported enclosure. Plus, with ported, you can forget about output below 12Hz, which is becoming all the rage around here.


Having the option of making a porthole can't be good, I mean that should require a different enclosure volume/dimensions right?

=Huh?


DSPs, are they still needed when using Audyssey's "Sub EQ HT"?

=Depends. You'd have to use Audssey and see if it works for ya. If it doesn't then you'd need a DSP.


2 Plate amps vs 1 external amp, does either offer more performance for the price?

=Pro amps offer the biggest bang for the buck in your price range.


Do plate amps effect sound quality?

=Not until they become non-linear, I.E., run out of power, which can be said about any amp.


Do bass traps affect infrasonics?

=No


Big driver + smaller enclosure vs smaller driver + big enclosure. Assuming both drivers are within a few inches of eachother e.g. 12" vs 15" or 15" vs 18", are there any signifigant differences?

=Speaking generalities, the larger the box, the greater the efficiency. So, larger driver in small box means more power demands. Small driver in large box means less power demands to reach mechanical limits.


+18" with an adequate amp or 10-12" with a stronger amp. Is one generally more preferable?

=18" with an adequate amp. You'll get more output than a 10" (by far) and be less likely to blow anything.


I'm guessing it's far to situational to have a rule of thumb.

=Small box, deep frequencies, efficient. Pick two.


Can I find out what my room gain is, presently, to help in selecting drivers/enclosure size?

=Use a test enclosure (typically sealed). Measure it outside and then again in your room. Compare the differences.


Four (or more within budget) 8"-10" subs vs two 15", would there be a big difference in displacement and/or getting down low?

=The two15's will likely have a greater potential for output being that they'll probably have more xmax than the four 10's. That will result in a greater Vd, and Vd is what creates all the output.


Would the smoother response be a more preferable compromise?

=In a small bedroom room? No. Two sealed 15's or 18's, wherever you can get them to fit, and iNuke3000, and call it a day.
 

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In response to my response, "=In a small bedroom room? No. Two sealed 15's or 18's, wherever you can get them to fit, and iNuke3000, and call it a day.", how about this.


4x Dayton DVC's = $480 shipped

1x iNuke3000 = $300 (+$100 for DSP) shipped



Sub total = $780 ($880 w/DSP) shipped.


Add in wood, glue, paint, wire, etc... and you're right near $1k.


4, 15's in a bedroom is a bit much, but permits you to upgrade to livingroom HT without upgrading your subs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber  /t/1471637/11-2-bedroom-options-restrictions-decisions-oh-my#post_23330532


*note* My responses will be preceded by "=". They are not the 100% textbook answer, but just my answer. Another person my provide different answers.

Well now, thanks a load for the reply.

The Audyssey mic has a standard 3.5mm phone connector, so I don't see why it wouldn't work. I was only interested in knowing if it was acceptible enough to use to take room measurements without spending more money. No need for needless expenses as the more I save the more it's spent on speakers


Just to clarify what I ment about the porthole, I just assumed sealed enclosures were more popular because you can always cut a hole in a box if you want one. But I didn't think this should be true since sealed and ported box dimensions aren't the same.


I've seen the iNuke3000 and 6000 reccomended alot, are there any others that are commonly reccomended?




Oh, for the SEOS kits, is any kind of stuffing or other lining material needed for inside the enclosure? I've tried searching but never really found any real discussion on it. Would stuffing/lining them even do anything since they're ported?



*edit*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber  /t/1471637/11-2-bedroom-options-restrictions-decisions-oh-my#post_23330586


4x Dayton DVC's = $480 shipped

1x iNuke3000 = $300 (+$100 for DSP) shipped

Wouldn't I need two amps? I only see two channels on the amp.
 

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I've seen the iNuke3000 and 6000 reccomended alot, are there any others that are commonly reccomended?

=The EP2500/4000 is another option and a solid perfomer.



Oh, for the SEOS kits, is any kind of stuffing or other lining material needed for inside the enclosure? I've tried searching but never really found any real discussion on it. Would stuffing/lining them even do anything since they're ported?

=Line the walls. Do not have any abstructions (fill) between the woofer and ports, or you will reduce the functionality of your ports.


*edit*

Wouldn't I need two amps? I only see two channels on the amp.

=Twin 8ohm VC's in parallel = 4ohm load. Twin woofers in parallel = 2ohm. So you would have two, 2ohm loads, one for each amp channel.

Personally I'm not a big fan of running house equipment at 2ohms, but that's just personal preference. Many many folks on here do it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber  /t/1471637/11-2-bedroom-options-restrictions-decisions-oh-my/0_100#post_23330799


*edit*

Wouldn't I need two amps? I only see two channels on the amp.

=Twin 8ohm VC's in parallel = 4ohm load. Twin woofers in parallel = 2ohm. So you would have two, 2ohm loads, one for each amp channel.

Personally I'm not a big fan of running house equipment at 2ohms, but that's just personal preference. Many many folks on here do it.
 

I run 2 ohm stereo on my Ep4000, works perfectly fine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber  /t/1471637/11-2-bedroom-options-restrictions-decisions-oh-my#post_23330799


=Twin 8ohm VC's in parallel = 4ohm load. Twin woofers in parallel = 2ohm. So you would have two, 2ohm loads, one for each amp channel.

Personally I'm not a big fan of running house equipment at 2ohms, but that's just personal preference. Many many folks on here do it.
Would 8+8 dual voice coil drivers being ran in parallel @2ohms be the same as 4ohm single voice coil drivers in parrallel?

Are THESE the Daytons you were referring to? Would the NU3000 have enough juice to use 4 of the Daytons in the setup you sugested? (kinda silly asking you since it was what you sugested, wouldn't expect someone to sugest something if it wouldn't work lol).

Those Daytons, their specs list 20Hz-450Hz and an Fs of 19Hz, but how much of that is true? I'm used to seeing electronics performing lower than marketing specs. If this is true, are there any drivers can can go lower within my budget?



*Edit*

Random idea: Say I get 4 subs, would it be a good idea to have one channel focus on infrasonic range and the other channel for say 50-100Hz?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador  /t/1471637/11-2-bedroom-options-restrictions-decisions-oh-my#post_23331034


I run 2 ohm stereo on my Ep4000, works perfectly fine.
And I know you're not alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamikaze_Ice  /t/1471637/11-2-bedroom-options-restrictions-decisions-oh-my#post_23332070


Would 8+8 dual voice coil drivers being ran in parallel @2ohms be the same as 4ohm single voice coil drivers in parrallel?

=Yes. Wiring VC's in parallel gives you half the total reistance. In series gives you double the resistance.


Are THESE the Daytons you were referring to?

=Yes.


Would the NU3000 have enough juice to use 4 of the Daytons in the setup you sugested? (kinda silly asking you since it was what you sugested, wouldn't expect someone to sugest something if it wouldn't work lol).

=Yes. You may want to check them out in WinISD just to see how it all performs. The MFW-15's I have, which are similar to the Dayton DVC's, but a small step down, can be over powered by an EP4000.


Those Daytons, their specs list 20Hz-450Hz and an Fs of 19Hz, but how much of that is true?

=Normally, with sealed boxes, you forget about the specs and just EQ the frequency response to what you want. Sealed is super easy.


I'm used to seeing electronics performing lower than marketing specs. If this is true, are there any drivers can can go lower within my budget?

=With sealed boxes, your output is wholly dependent upon Vd (the amount of air the driver displaces at xmax). So, X liters at Y Hz produces Z dB. Decrease Y or X, and you decrease Z.


*Edit*

Random idea: Say I get 4 subs, would it be a good idea to have one channel focus on infrasonic range and the other channel for say 50-100Hz?

=With identical subs, no because you will just lose output. With different drivers, it could work. That's what some folks do - use lots of large, innefficient for the lowest frequencies, and then a couple highly efficient pro audio woofers for the >50hz area for that chest thump.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber  /t/1471637/11-2-bedroom-options-restrictions-decisions-oh-my#post_23332425


=Yes. You may want to check them out in WinISD just to see how it all performs. The MFW-15's I have, which are similar to the Dayton DVC's, but a small step down, can be over powered by an EP4000.
Unless there are two drivers that can out perform the Dayton's you mentioned for the same cost, I'll take your advice and go with them. I've been messing with WinISD to model these drivers and other options, but it really dosen't like my pc (win 7 x64, overclocked), constant errors and crashes even in compatibility mode.


Looks like these are a great bang:buck driver and would be hard to beat with my budget.


Would you happen to know a good size of an enclosure that would keep me from hitting xmax? They can be seperate or dual opposed, and anything under 6'^3, I'm guessing around 3-4' would be where xmax would be reached? If so, I'd probbably be lazy and just get some of Erich's flatpacks.


I'll probbably get the iNuke with dsp, or minidsp, to get the most out of them.
 
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