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Well they "could" do that, but then you wouldn't have the setup we have for next season. There also wasn't really enough time for them to do that in this episode. He would have only been able to drink the tea after that event already happened (to him). He made a rash decision (as he does) to make the jump forward after Cassie. They would have needed to pause, think hey I can drink the tea, go find the red leaves (remember the storms/red forest had receded/healed itself) to make the tea. In order to be sure, he would have had to jump BACK in time, to "tea jump" forward. That's a lot to pack into what 5 minutes of screen time.

Have to say I really enjoyed the finale and look forward to what do next season. While this show just for really complicated, the writers this far have always "covered themselves".

As far as the Witness being Coles kid, we assume it is, it's heavily hinted it is, but we can't be 100% sure due to the changes that were made. We know there were changes made (major ones) as Cole was surprised Cassie remembered the butterfly. That was a 1st (someone outside of Cole remembering the "alternate" past. This may be the hint that the child IS Cole's. Throughout the series Cole has been deemed "special". He's also the only real person that can continually time jump without dying. I believe there were small comments made saying the Witness resides "outside of time" of this is the case then that may be the reason Cassie can remember the alternate history. She is being affected by being pregnant with the Witness. This would also explain how The Witness knows what they do. Residing outside of time would allow for a "total" view.




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I thought Katarina had also remembered an alternate past?
 

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I thought Katarina had also remembered an alternate past?


I don't believe she did, she says she remembers sending them them back, but everything is "hazy" she skipped over parts and basically said she waited a year for them to come back after the storms receded.


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I don't believe she did, she says she remembers sending them them back, but everything is "hazy" she skipped over parts and basically said she waited a year for them to come back after the storms receded.


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I mean from a previous episode. Not the season finale. I thought when they changed something previously that she had remembered it?
 

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I mean from a previous episode. Not the season finale. I thought when they changed something previously that she had remembered it?


I'm not sure she remembers the before, just the "new" before. I could be wrong though.


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Cole could be his own father - ever see the movie Predestination?

Not going to spoiler it if you haven't but check the plot line.
 
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As far as the Witness being Coles kid, we assume it is, it's heavily hinted it is, but we can't be 100% sure due to the changes that were made. We know there were changes made (major ones) as Cole was surprised Cassie remembered the butterfly. That was a 1st (someone outside of Cole remembering the "alternate" past. This may be the hint that the child IS Cole's. Throughout the series Cole has been deemed "special". He's also the only real person that can continually time jump without dying. I believe there were small comments made saying the Witness resides "outside of time" of this is the case then that may be the reason Cassie can remember the alternate history. She is being affected by being pregnant with the Witness. This would also explain how The Witness knows what they do. Residing outside of time would allow for a "total" view.

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The Groundhog Day episode totally confirms that Cassie (and Cole) can remember what happens in alternate timelines that get reset. Cassie also didn't lose any knowledge or memories when the virus was destroyed, which shifted the timeline in many ways for other people in 2043/4; nor did Cassie lose memories of previous timelines as a result of Hannah being saved. I also don't ever recall Ramse ever losing memories from the timeline reset when the virus was destroyed. In fact, when he returned to 2044, his son was there instead of dead, and he totally remembered he had a son from the original timeline.

In other words, travelers, who are injected with serum, do not lose memories of alternate timelines they experienced. It's almost more surprising that Cole was surprised that Cassie remembered their 1957-59 relationship.
 

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I get that Cole and Cassie (Katarina too, and presumably Ramse) remember everything from previous timelines since taking their injections. Cole is the only one who remembers everything, since he was the first of the group on the serum. AND we had the Groundhog day episode confirming Cole and Cassie remembering (and getting better) multiple redos of the same day. BUT... they started those days over with memories, but no physical attributes. They died in some of those repeated days... they weren't rebooted as dead.

So... there is still the question of how she can be pregnant. She can remember being pregnant... but she shouldn't actually BE pregnant, since the time Cole and her spent together was in a timeline that was rebooted. She should remember it all, and that's fine... but actually being pregnant is an odd thing. And remember, since they went there in early 1957, spend basically the whole year trying to find that primary... then failed and spent another year (Cassie in a coma much of that time)... she couldn't have been pregnant prior to going to 1957 because she would already have had the baby by the time they find the primary!

Thus... the only way she is pregnant is by Cole... but that didn't actually happen, even though they remember it... so how is she pregnant? I guess they have a timey-wimey "the witness exists outside of time" thing to explain at some point... and somehow he is conceived outside of time so he stays even after the reboot... This is WAY more impressive than virgin birth! In this scenario NEITHER of his parents had sex! :)

Of course.. it's also possible that Cassie isn't pregnant... the reference to "you brought him to us" could just be referring to her womb. We could be looking at an artificial insemination thing at the start of next season... which means it also might not be Cole's baby.

All the talk of Cole and his father... reminds me that we still haven't seen his mother. They referenced her as having abandoned him and his father... apparently to join some cult... I always figured she was tied into the 12 monkeys somehow... so there's still that plot twist to develop.
 

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I get that Cole and Cassie (Katarina too, and presumably Ramse) remember everything from previous timelines since taking their injections. Cole is the only one who remembers everything, since he was the first of the group on the serum. AND we had the Groundhog day episode confirming Cole and Cassie remembering (and getting better) multiple redos of the same day. BUT... they started those days over with memories, but no physical attributes. They died in some of those repeated days... they weren't rebooted as dead.

So... there is still the question of how she can be pregnant. She can remember being pregnant... but she shouldn't actually BE pregnant, since the time Cole and her spent together was in a timeline that was rebooted. She should remember it all, and that's fine... but actually being pregnant is an odd thing. And remember, since they went there in early 1957, spend basically the whole year trying to find that primary... then failed and spent another year (Cassie in a coma much of that time)... she couldn't have been pregnant prior to going to 1957 because she would already have had the baby by the time they find the primary!

Thus... the only way she is pregnant is by Cole... but that didn't actually happen, even though they remember it... so how is she pregnant? I guess they have a timey-wimey "the witness exists outside of time" thing to explain at some point... and somehow he is conceived outside of time so he stays even after the reboot... This is WAY more impressive than virgin birth! In this scenario NEITHER of his parents had sex! :)

Of course.. it's also possible that Cassie isn't pregnant... the reference to "you brought him to us" could just be referring to her womb. We could be looking at an artificial insemination thing at the start of next season... which means it also might not be Cole's baby.

All the talk of Cole and his father... reminds me that we still haven't seen his mother. They referenced her as having abandoned him and his father... apparently to join some cult... I always figured she was tied into the 12 monkeys somehow... so there's still that plot twist to develop.
I am getting flashbacks from Terminator 1. ;)
 

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I mean from a previous episode. Not the season finale. I thought when they changed something previously that she had remembered it?
Yeah. She remembered the original time line but now the new version, such as how she didn't remember being married to Eckhart.
 

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Well I just finished season 2, and while I do regret being unable to participate in these discussions, I still think that this show is better when watched at a pace of multiple episodes per week, because it's so dense that there's no way to follow it at only one episode per week. I'm late to the party, but I'll provide some belated comments, anyway.

I really have only one complaint about this season, and that's the primaries. Everything in season 1 was fairly rational, but the idea that there are magic humans that time somehow "needs" felt completely out of place to me. It would have been one thing if primaries had been certain cogs in the wheels of the timeline, in the sense that they were important figures who, if killed too early or kept alive too long, would radically alter the timeline, but that's not the impression I got at all.

Primaries are magic people who not only are capable of seeing through time but who time also can't exist without, even though it's not explained in the slightest how time can need a human or how said human's death (but only through a paradox!) can break time. I thought the whole thing was pretty stupid, but I hope that I'll get to eat my words when season 3 makes everything clear. :eek:

Another thing about Ramse, is that I've never seen a death date on the time map, Jennifer's was nailed to the day and the last one I saw or remember had Cassie in 2017, it's hard to keep up with the timeline sometimes. LOL this happened before but it was in the future stuff gets head scratching for sure.
Ramse was supposed to die at the end of season 1, but Cole saved him. Everything in season 2, even before they pushed the outbreak to 2018, has been something of a reset. Perhaps the Witness had everything planned out according to the original timeline, and now that Cole and Cassie have been changing things, his vision can't keep up with how events are changing.

I mean from a previous episode. Not the season finale. I thought when they changed something previously that she [Katarina] had remembered it?
Yeah, but there's nothing for her to remember this time, because in the previous timeline, she was, you know... dead. :p As such, she can only remember events from the timeline when she didn't die.

Thus... the only way she is pregnant is by Cole... but that didn't actually happen, even though they remember it... so how is she pregnant?
Maybe the fetus, because it was conceived by two people who have had the time travelling serum, is also immune to changes in the timeline? Cassie and Cole got shot and died in previous timelines, and their deaths didn't carry over into the next loop, because the bullets that killed them weren't immune to changes in the timeline. The unborn baby, however, could be. o_O; That might also explain where the Witness gets his ability to travel through time... he was born with it as the child of two time travellers.
 

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Maybe the fetus, because it was conceived by two people who have had the time travelling serum, is also immune to changes in the timeline?
Maybe. But I've also been wondering lately if the Witness is a primary? And so that might have something to do with it, too.
 

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Keep in mind, regarding the primaries... It's not as much about their apparent "importance" to the timeline so much as it is that they were being paradoxed (killed with a bone of their own from the future)... I mean, they may or may not be super-important, but they were all going to die at some point anyway... it's just they were paradox-killed which made it a big thing.
 

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Yeah, except you can paradox anyone and anything else without destroying time itself. We're given no explanation for why time requires primaries or how a few mortals can somehow support the fabric of the universe. Considering that primaries live and die like everybody else, new primaries presumably have to be born to replace the ones that died of natural causes, so we're left to wonder how time "selects" people to be primary, as well. As far as I can tell, all of this primary nonsense was created so that season 2 wouldn't have to focus on trying to stop the plague anymore.
 

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We're given no explanation for why time requires primaries or how a few mortals can somehow support the fabric of the universe.
Can you tell me how many species of birds can manage to migrate to the exact same spot year after year? It's not like they have GPS.

Science can't explain how birds migrate that precisely. We live in a universe where everything does not have an explanation. I'm used to sci-fi often having things that are unexplained. I guess I'm comfortable not understanding the primaries relationship to time. Although I am curious :)
 
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