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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, I am a plasma owner but still enjoy learning about how every technology works (been working with AM-LCD since 1990). The thing that I don't understand is, lets take a simple truth like, the best consumer LCD's right now are, at best, capable of a 2ms response time. Take that figure and divide it by 100: 100/2=50 possible gray-to-gray refreshes on the screen. That means that you can only truly say that a 2ms LCD can render 50fps (or handle a 50hz refresh rate).


The only way that any of this makes sense is if you count the fact that the crystals are not always going from gray-to-gray, which they aren't, unless they are fluctuating between full-on and full-off (fully twisted or fully untwisted). I understand that 120/240hz is really just how often the scalar is processing the video and feeding it to the drive circuitry, so you could have a 480/960hz drive if you wanted to, but still, the best an LCD can REALLY do, is 50hz. With most consumer LCD's being near 6-8ms, that leaves us with 16.4hz and 12.5hz respectively (remember we are talking gray-to-gray times here, though this is still very important).


Am I missing something here? Also, why does it seem that these new, motion handling features offered on most LCD's today, which remove the dramatic effect of film and make everything look like amateur video, are becoming so popular? Why would anyone want to watch a perversion of the idea of "film", being recorded at 24fps. Frankly, to see film rendered in such a manner makes me disgusted.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by soloist3 /forum/post/16933494


Ok, I am a plasma owner but still enjoy learning about how every technology works (been working with AM-LCD since 1990). The thing that I don't understand is, lets take a simple truth like, the best consumer LCD's right now are, at best, capable of a 2ms response time. Take that figure and divide it by 100: 100/2=50 possible grey-to-grey refreshes on the screen. That means that you can only truly say that a 2ms LCD can render 50fps (or handle a 50hz refresh rate).


The only way that any of this makes sense is if you count the fact that crystals are not always going from grey-to-grey, which they aren't unless they are fluctuating between the full-on and full-off (fully twisted or fully untwisted). I understand that 120/240hz is really just how often the scalar is processing the video and feeding it to the drive circuitry, so you could have a 480/960hz drive if you wanted to but still the best an LCD can REALLY do, is 50hz. With most consumer LCD's being near 6-8ms, that leaves us with 16.4hz and 12.5hz respectively (remember we are talking grey-to-grey times here, though this is still very important).


Am I missing something here? Also, why does it seem that these new, motion handling features offered on most LCD's today, which remove the dramatic effect of film and make everything look like amateur video, becoming so popular. Why would anyone want to watch a perversion of idea of "film", being recorded at 24fps. Frankly, to see film rendered in such a manner makes me disgusted.

Your math is way off. Millisecond is one thousandth of a second, not one hundredth.


Most people don't use the dejudder feature you're referring to if they have the option. Unfortunately only samsung offers seperation between judder and blur as far as I know. Deblurring isn't perverting the film, it's improving motion resolution so it appears closer to the source, not further from it.


If this was any other forum I frequent, I'd swear this was a troll post.
 

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I agree with OP. I am looking at picking up an LN55B650 very soon and was checking out my neighbors LN46A650 and he was talking up the 120mhz thing. He turned on transformers and and had it set to "high" and I wanted to gouge my eyes out. He thought it was the coolest thing ever.


To each their own I guess.
 

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I have a 240Hz TV, which admittedly, may be overkill, but it came with the model I wanted so there wasn't much choice. The ability to separate dejudder and blur reduction on the samsungs is awesome. I agree that films look like crap with dejudder cranked way up. It's a cool-looking affect to "wow" your friends and family, but in the end, I leave it off. However, I've been watching some TV shows with auto motion on low, and the picture is spectacular. IMO, the 120 and 240Hz are worth it just for the improved motion res and the ability to play 24p without 3:2 pulldown. The dejudder is just a cool feature to play with, and I guess some people love the look.
 

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Members should also be aware of the fact that all 120Hz 240Hz implementation are not equal!


Some 120Hz set, simply double up on each of the 60 frames that are delivered to the display. Better, implementations use motion compensation, the create frame on the fly, to smooth out the movement of objects on screen. The best implementation, allow you to customize how quickly the 120Hz (or 240Hz) images when this motion in the content, so you don't have to put up with the "cartoon" look.


Some poor implementation of 240Hz refresh, just doubles up on the 60Hz feed, then adds a gray field insert, between the 120 frames.


The is no perfect TV technology (plasma, LCD or even OLED when it arrives on mass), and certainly no perfect refresh rate implementation. Even the most advanced motion compensation implementations are just a best guess mathematically equation.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethhobrin /forum/post/16933521


I agree with OP. I am looking at picking up an LN55B650 very soon and was checking out my neighbors LN46A650 and he was talking up the 120mhz thing. He turned on transformers and and had it set to "high" and I wanted to gouge my eyes out. He thought it was the coolest thing ever.


To each their own I guess.

You are confused. Frame rate interpolarization (AMP) is not the same thing as 120 hz frame refresh rate. They are two different things



You can turn the first one off. The second one stays on all the time. The original poster is not talking about AMP
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by omeletpants /forum/post/16933827


You are confused. Frame rate interpolarization (AMP) is not the same thing as 120 hz frame refresh rate. They are two different things



You can turn the first one off. The second one stays on all the time. The original poster is not talking about AMP

sure he is, or some other named motion enhancement feature.


while the refresh rate is inherent to the set's design, without motion enhancement/frame interpolation or Black Frame Insertion, the displayed image is not affected in any way as it is just repeated more times with no measureable or detectable difference.


TVbc
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by milehighou /forum/post/16933592


I have a 240Hz TV, which admittedly, may be overkill, but it came with the model I wanted so there wasn't much choice. The ability to separate dejudder and blur reduction on the samsungs is awesome. I agree that films look like crap with dejudder cranked way up. It's a cool-looking affect to "wow" your friends and family, but in the end, I leave it off. However, I've been watching some TV shows with auto motion on low, and the picture is spectacular. IMO, the 120 and 240Hz are worth it just for the improved motion res and the ability to play 24p without 3:2 pulldown. The dejudder is just a cool feature to play with, and I guess some people love the look.

A cool looking effect that wows your friends makes for a bad picture?


These techonlogies make film look the way it could look, if the studios weren't financially tied to ancient technology.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
There you have it; I don't know why I was confusing the "centi" seconds that you see on, say a cheap stopwatch, with "milli" seconds, which is obviously 1/1000th of a second. Also, yes, I do realize that 120/240hz is different than any of these "smooth motion" algorithms, I guess I should have delineated it further in that paragraph. Either way, such frame interpolation method look awful to me, of course this might be different for you if you are a big fan of soap opera's.


Also, if there was an emoticon for showing embarrassment (which there probably is somewhere) I would use that right now as that has got to be one of the most ridiculously simple conceptual errors I have ever displayed, sorry everyone.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by soloist3 /forum/post/16935528


Also, if there was an emoticon for showing embarrassment (which there probably is somewhere) I would use that right now as that has got to be one of the most ridiculously simple conceptual errors I have ever displayed, sorry everyone.

Try this one
or this
or even this
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sethhobrin /forum/post/16933521


I agree with OP. I am looking at picking up an LN55B650 very soon and was checking out my neighbors LN46A650 and he was talking up the 120mhz thing. He turned on transformers and and had it set to "high" and I wanted to gouge my eyes out. He thought it was the coolest thing ever.


To each their own I guess.

While I don't like the AMP feature myself, I think the real problem here is you were watching Transformers - that's enough to make anyone want to gouge their eyes out.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirjonsnow /forum/post/16936173


I think the real problem here is you were watching Transformers - that's enough to make anyone want to gouge their eyes out.

You've obviously never seen Megan Fox onscreen with AMP smoothing set to 10.
Talk about smooth.
 

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I would bet that if you asked a director or anyone involved in the film business that many of them would be opposed to AMP? Why do I say that? Because if they wanted movies to look like that they would simply film in 30fps rather than 24fps.


I'm not one who is opposed to AMP. I could live with it or w/o it (but I don't like the artifacts that it creates).
 

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I can actually tell the difference between my A650's 120hz and my current B750's 240hz. I was watching Planet Earth (pretty much the only show I'll watch with AMP on full), and it's definitely a touch smoother on the panning. Not night and day, but I notice it. Then again, I keep off AMP for EVERYTHING else, as its only use is the 5:5 or 10:10 (240hz) pulldown for Blu-ray 24p.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 /forum/post/16937700


I would bet that if you asked a director or anyone involved in the film business that many of them would be opposed to AMP? Why do I say that? Because if they wanted movies to look like that they would simply film in 30fps rather than 24fps.


I'm not one who is opposed to AMP. I could live with it or w/o it (but I don't like the artifacts that it creates).

I'm in the film business and many of them would be thrilled with AMP if they knew people, who ordinarily are not movie watchers, get excited like little kids in a candy store upon watching the infamous Pearl Harbor attack scene with the smooth look of AMP. AMP is not for everyone, but to keep hearing the same people over and over ***** and moan about "keeping the integrity of film" crap, it's very tiring. These same people probably watch Raging Bull on network TV and don't think twice about it being butchered....where's the outcry? Is that what Martin Scorcese intended? Get over it.......whatever gives people the need to sit down and watch a movie is fine with me. If i want to see Showgirls with AMP set to 5000, well, i'll just have to suffer the consequences, but i'll send an apology letter to Paul Verhoeven.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lipcrkr /forum/post/16938058


I'm in the film business and many of them would be thrilled with AMP if they knew people, who ordinarily are not movie watchers, get excited like little kids in a candy store upon watching the infamous Pearl Harbor attack scene with the smooth look of AMP. AMP is not for everyone, but to keep hearing the same people over and over ***** and moan about "keeping the integrity of film" crap, it's very tiring. These same people probably watch Raging Bull on network TV and don't think twice about it being butchered....where's the outcry? Is that what Martin Scorcese intended? Get over it.......whatever gives people the need to sit down and watch a movie is fine with me. If i want to see Showgirls with AMP set to 5000, well, i'll just have to suffer the consequences, but i'll send an apology letter to Paul Verhoeven.

When I say in the film industry I guess I meant more along the lines of directors and such. Some of them get very picky if the slightest thing is changed to the original content as they see their films as "art" and not just a movie.


If someone wants to use AMP then more power to them. If not, then that's fine as well. Personally I'm all for options.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 /forum/post/16939356


When I say in the film industry I guess I meant more along the lines of directors and such. Some of them get very picky if the slightest thing is changed to the original content as they see their films as "art" and not just a movie.


If someone wants to use AMP then more power to them. If not, then that's fine as well. Personally I'm all for options.

But that comment doesn't make sense. Most movies get changed depending on the situation and directors understand that. My example of Raging Bull. If i was Martin i would be more pissed at Raging Bull being heavily edited for network TV rather than watching the unedited version on Cable with AMP. Cutting out the language, among other things, is not what Martin intended because the 4 letter words are what made Jake LaMotta who he was. It's real. This is why i never watch movies on network TV, it's pathetic. It completely ruins the intent of the director. If someone wants to see Raging Bull with Judder at 10, well, so be it, at least if they are watching the DVD or cable version they are seeing the movie unedited, which is far more important IMO.
 
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