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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If I use a dual link DVI cable, hooked up to an Acer GD235HZ at 120hz via Radeon 5850, and play a movie in powerdvd, will I get 24p at 5:5 ? DO I have to turn pulldown detection off in the catalyst drivers?
 

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Assuming that the monitor can take that, then yeah, you should get straight 5:1 playback natively. ATi's drivers should know better than to need any pulldown in that situation, but there again, why risk it, I would turn off pulldown detection just in case.
 

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Right. Like he said. If the monitor can actually be set for 120Hz, You should get 5:5 on 24p material and 4:4 on 30i(2:2 60Hz after deinterlacing). Pretty sweet actually. You never have to change your refresh rate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtosDracon /forum/post/18171538


Assuming that the monitor can take that, then yeah, you should get straight 5:1 playback natively. ATi's drivers should know better than to need any pulldown in that situation, but there again, why risk it, I would turn off pulldown detection just in case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ /forum/post/18171924


Right. Like he said. If the monitor can actually be set for 120Hz, You should get 5:5 on 24p material and 4:4 on 30i(2:2 60Hz after deinterlacing). Pretty sweet actually. You never have to change your refresh rate.

Yeah, the monitor can accept 120hz through DVI. Thanks for the replies.
 

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As best I cant tell from the monitors user manual the 120Hz mode available over dual link DVI is designed for use with the Nvidia 3D application and uses the two links separatly in order to support 3D applications only.

There is nothing the manual that even mentions a 5:5 pull down option when processing 1080P/24 content for it's 120 display. Most likely this is becasue it is designed only as a monitor and not also as TV.

Also I am not aware of any graphics card capable of creating 1080p/120 from 1080p/24 content using 5:5 pulldown.

More Info on the Nvidia 3d graphics solution can be found at:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_Vision_Main.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/18172587


As best I cant tell from the monitors user manual the 120Hz mode available over dual link DVI is designed for use with the Nvidia 3D application and uses the two links separatly in order to support 3D applications only.

There is nothing the manual that even mentions a 5:5 pull down option when processing 1080P/24 content for it's 120 display. Most likely this is becasue it is designed only as a monitor and not also as TV.

Also I am not aware of any graphics card capable of creating 1080p/120 from 1080p/24 content using 5:5 pulldown.

More Info on the Nvidia 3d graphics solution can be found at:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_Vision_Main.html

Thanks for the reply. The 120hz isn't just for 3d apps, it is a fixed refresh rate for all usage.
 

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I know the refresh rate of the monitor's screen is fixed at 120Hz for all content. What I was trying to point out was that after reading the user's guide for the monitor I could find no way for it to receive 24fps content and use 5:5 pulldown to display each frame the same number of times on the TV. In fact I could find no references to any TV signal processing except for the link to the Nvidia Web site for the NVIDIA 3d solution.

And as I stated I know of no graphics card that will output 120Hz over dual link DVI that contains 5 copies of each frame of 24fps content source.

The manual did not contain pictures of all of the screens of the OSD, hoever, I did see one OSD screen that appeard to have a selection for a dual stream input which I assume was releated to receiving dual data streams over the dual link DVI interface.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/18173070


I know the refresh rate of the monitor's screen is fixed at 120Hz for all content. What I was trying to point out was that after reading the user's guide for the monitor I could find no way for it to receive 24fps content and use 5:5 pulldown to display each frame the same number of times on the TV. In fact I could find no references to any TV signal processing except for the link to the Nvidia Web site for the NVIDIA 3d solution.

And as I stated I know of no graphics card that will output 120Hz over dual link DVI that contains 5 copies of each frame of 24fps content source.

The manual did not contain pictures of all of the screens of the OSD, hoever, I did see one OSD screen that appeard to have a selection for a dual stream input which I assume was releated to receiving dual data streams over the dual link DVI interface.

Ah, I see. So you think that the radeon is doing motion interpolation before the signal reaches the monitor? Sorry if this is a stupid question
 

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What you're talking about doing wouldn't require the monitor to input anything but 120hz, the monitor isn't having to do any pulldown at all, it's receiving a fixed 120hz input. The video card would be doing the frame replication.
 

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But I don't know of any video card that will do frame replication and create 120Hz content that can be output over a dual link DVI connection to a monitor designed to accept two different 60 differnt 60fps data streams one over each link of dual link DVI connection to use for 3D projection.

I don't think the radeon card will peform frame interpolation either to create 120Hz content from 24fps source. AFAIK it only knows how to create 60fps content from 24fps source using 3:2 pulldown.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/18174964


But I don't know of any video card that will do frame replication and create 120Hz content that can be output over a dual link DVI connection to a monitor designed to accept two different 60 differnt 60fps data streams one over each link of dual link DVI connection to use for 3D projection.

I don't think the radeon card will peform frame interpolation either to create 120Hz content from 24fps source. AFAIK it only knows how to create 60fps content from 24fps source using 3:2 pulldown.

Even with pulldown disabled?
 

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Where do you think Pulldown is disabled since it is not avaialable in either the monit or in the Radeon drivers? Just as frame interpolation is not available in either the monitor or in the radeon drivers.

Remember you bought a PC monitor not a TV so the functions that are available in a TV for the handling of 24fps content are not available in your monitor.

I know of no way you can obtain 5:5 pull down on your monitor from 24fps content since neither the monitor or the graphics card can do it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/18175641


Where do you think Pulldown is disabled since it is not avaialable in either the monit or in the Radeon drivers? Just as frame interpolation is not available in either the monitor or in the radeon drivers.

Remember you bought a PC monitor not a TV so the functions that are available in a TV for the handling of 24fps content are not available in your monitor.

I know of no way you can obtain 5:5 pull down on your monitor from 24fps content since neither the monitor or the graphics card can do it.

If the Radeon HD5XXX series specifically support 120hz output and you play a video file with 24fps, how exactly to you propose it's going to output at 120hz without fram duplication or interpolation? It's sure as hell not going to just pause on a frame for 5hz(.0083 seconds). Just about everything about the HD5 series was designed with computer media in mind, it has frame interpolation. I understand you not believing that the monitor will do it, but what makes you think the drivers can't. I happen to think radeon HD5 series do pretty well even with 3:2 pulldown and pulldown detection enabled. Better IMHO than my most TVs do.
 

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I suggest that tbe driver alone if it can do anything would use 3:2 pulldown to get to 60fps and will then display each frame twice and this will depend on what program is being used on the PC to play the 24fps content since it is the player program that would have to control the frame interpolation of 5:5 pulldown and control the creation of the data stream to be sent to the monitor.. It is also impotant to note that the 3D capable monitor can not accept 120 fps content over HDMI and this is because HDMI 1.3 does not have a way on the reciving end to splt two 60fps content streams one for each eye for 3D into streams.

I have found a reference that discuses frame interpolation capabilities on ATI cards being used to create 48fps content being converted to 48fps content see the following link.

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=288017


I can not find any referencers that discuss 120Hz output from ATI cards other then it use for 3D graphics.
 

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Refresh rate is totally independent from frame rate on a PC. You output a multiple of the refresh rate. Or you deal with the frame stutter from vsync or you turn vsync off and get tearing.


And yes, the video card's frame buffer will refresh the same frame five times. That's how it works. The PC video card doesn't have to interpolate anything. It just retains the frame in buffer and refreshes it. That is why it is called refresh rate. If showing the same frame five times to equal 120hz isn't 5:5 pulldown, I don't know what is. Frame interpolation is not 120hz. It is a feature on 120hz TV sets.


So once again, for the record. If your monitor's refresh is 120hz(ACTUAL) and you play a video at 24fps the card has no choice but to display each frame five times. If you are using Vsync and the frame rate drops below 24hz, Software will artificially limit the frame rate to the next multiple down. I.E. 20fps then 12 and so on.. in order to prevent tearing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/18177389


I suggest that tbe driver alone if it can do anything would use 3:2 pulldown to get to 60fps and will then display each frame twice and this will depend on what program is being used on the PC to play the 24fps content since it is the player program that would have to control the frame interpolation of 5:5 pulldown and control the creation of the data stream to be sent to the monitor.. It is also impotant to note that the 3D capable monitor can not accept 120 fps content over HDMI and this is because HDMI 1.3 does not have a way on the reciving end to splt two 60fps content streams one for each eye for 3D into streams.

I have found a reference that discuses frame interpolation capabilities on ATI cards being used to create 48fps content being converted to 48fps content see the following link.

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=288017


I can not find any referencers that discuss 120Hz output from ATI cards other then it use for 3D graphics.

Pulldown Detection
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 /forum/post/18177582


Pulldown Detection

Some men....Ya just..caint...reach.



Wally, would you like me to explain how my 120hz TV does 5:5 pulldown, yet it only accepts 1080p60? That one will really throw you through a loop. It buffers unique frames into a frame buffer and displays each one on the screen five times! I know, it's crazy electron voodoo man!(in my best John Stuart voice)
 

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You left out one step

The TV is accepting 1080p/60 film based content.

Then the TV is riunning IVTV(inverse telecine code) which removes the from the 1080p/60 input the 1080p/24fps source content.

Then the TV displays each of the frames of the 24fps content five times by placing and leaving each frame of the 24fps into the 120Hz display's output buffer and leaving it there for 1/24th of a second.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/18178386


You left out one step

The TV is accepting 1080p/60 film based content.

Then the TV is riunning IVTV(inverse telecine code) which removes the from the 1080p/60 input the 1080p/24fps source content.

Then the TV displays each of the frames of the 24fps content five times by placing and leaving each frame of the 24fps into the 120Hz display's output buffer and leaving it there for 1/24th of a second.

THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS WITH HTPCS WITH A SET REFRESH RATE.


Ok, lets give this one more go. With a HTPC with a refresh rate of 120hz it will have 120 empty frames per second which it will then populate from a frame buffer. If a video is putting 60 fps into the frame buffer, the video card will then display each frame twice, filling the 120fps to match the 120hz refresh rate. If a video only puts 24fps into the frame buffer, it will display each frame five times, independently, to get 120fps to match the 120hz refresh rate.


On the opposite end of the dual link DVI cable at the monitor it will detect a 120hz refresh rate and 120FPS, regardless of what the video file is putting into the frame buffer, because the video card itself will have done whatever frame duplication is necessary on it's end.


The frame interpolation you linked to is specific to certain media players running specific scripts and filters on the CPU, not the GPU. With frame interpolation running, the frame buffer will actually get the extra frames, just as though the file itself was recorded in 48hz instead of 24hz. The major problem with frame interpolation on 24fps is that the refresh rate then has to be set to a multiple of 48hz in order to get smooth playback without having the issue of an odd pulldown happening. Depending on the screen, with 48hz you're going to get pulldown anyways, which sucks, but it is the way it is. I actually think you're more likely to get stutter with frame interpolation than without, cause virtually no TVs or monitors have an even multiple of 48hz for an input, very few are even getting to 120hz inputs, which would require a 5:2 pulldown, which is still gonna suck.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotSoCoolJ /forum/post/18177736


Some men....Ya just..caint...reach.



Wally, would you like me to explain how my 120hz TV does 5:5 pulldown, yet it only accepts 1080p60? That one will really throw you through a loop. It buffers unique frames into a frame buffer and displays each one on the screen five times! I know, it's crazy electron voodoo man!(in my best John Stuart voice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by walford /forum/post/18178386


You left out one step

The TV is accepting 1080p/60 film based content.

Then the TV is riunning IVTV(inverse telecine code) which removes the from the 1080p/60 input the 1080p/24fps source content.

Then the TV displays each of the frames of the 24fps content five times by placing and leaving each frame of the 24fps into the 120Hz display's output buffer and leaving it there for 1/24th of a second.


@ ArtosDracon.


walford was just explaining his question referencing his 120Hz TV. The question had nothing to do with monitors, they were just getting a little off topic thats all...
 
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