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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I own a Toshiba 65H80 (manufactured in Feb.2001) and I wanted to know yor opinion on the following:


Will the advennt of new source devices such as HD-STB's include both 1394 and /or DVI AS WELL AS component video outputs and continue to make the broadcast/satellite/OTA HD content VIEWABLE on a Toshiba 65H80 and similar sets without a "Promise"- or - will the Sony and Mitsubishi initiative to include 1394 on their fall sets contribute to "orphaning" component video as an interface for HD content?


Will Dish/DirecTV HD-STB's continue to deliver VIEWABLE HD thru component outputs- or - since that can be recorded, will the programmers choke of the entire "early adopter" population of STB's and 1080i displays?


Would you think that any future HD-DVD's will have component video outputs along with their 1394/DVI?


Murray Kerdman
 

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I don't think DVI will ever gain widespread acceptance in anything but digital displays (plasma and newer LCD), especially not the flavor of DVI that the MPAA wants with encryption (due to its COMPLETE lack of backward compatibility with current HD displays). It looks like products with the 5C copy protection over Firewire are starting to be introduced, and this will probably become the standard for transfer of copyrighted HD material.


Even if the 5C/1394 combination becomes widespread, wideband component will continue to be supported (in my opinion) on HD sources just as they still have composite video and RCA stereo audio outs (who uses these any more? obviously a few people out there). Consumer electronics manufacturers are not known for narrowing their potential market by ignoring the installed base. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif Money talks, after all, and we who currently have HD-capable displays have money to spend, after all. (That's money to SPEND, i.e. on devices that add new capabilities like recording/timeshifting, not money to THROW AWAY, i.e. on HD sources/recorders incompatible with our HD displays or on HD displays whose only "features" we don't already have are connectivity to such incompatible sources/recorders and the "ability" to prohibit personal-use copies.)


David
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The MPAA had a "kill switch" installed in all the D* HD STB's so that once a secure digital standard, even 5C-1394, was introduced they could mandate no premium(HBO or PPV) HD material can be sent to subscribers who could take the component outputs and record the material digitaly.


That's why the diplays not 1394 equipped will become far less desirable.


The DBS companies will offer big rebates on 1394-upgraded-STB's to stem the flow of "lawsuits".


But, the display makers have little if any liability.


Murray Kerdmanv

 

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Current HD-capable monitors with IEEE 1394 (non-5C) will not be compatible with 5C Firewire sources (except with unencrypted uncopyrighted materials), so you'll be using your wideband component inputs, anyway from such sources.


MPAA's big coup (and our great loss as users) was killing unencrypted Firewire-capable devices; it is thanks to the MPAA that we still have no viable way to timeshift or archive HD materials (except for the small minority with the Panasonic setup).


I don't mind a copy protection scheme, what I resent is the 3-year delay in my ability to record HD. In fact, I still haven't bought a HD receiver yet because I see little use in something I can only watch live, as I have little leisure time, and the odds of being at home AND having the time to watch TV precisely when they're broadcasting what I really want to see are slim.


I haven't put off purchase for lack of desire for HDTV or for lack of funds to purchase with or for lack of a suitable display (I have an 8" CRT FPTV); it's just the inability to timeshift. However, I'm tired of waiting, and I WILL buy a Dish 6000 setup just to see what I've been missing. But I am extremely pissed at the MPAA for their greedmongering and complete indifference to the individual's rights. But I say, let's just get 5C adopted and products out the door... I want to TIMESHIFT!


David
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
David,


With FPTV w/o 1394 you present a similar problem that RPTV users have-


no 2-way 1394 8VBS Tuner in your display (a la new Mits) to feed teh D-VHS.


I too, am considering breaking down nad buying a D/6000 HD STB and OTA Module for OTA/HBO/SHO/PPV HD (no record- no time shift).


Murray Kerdman
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by davidahn:
Even if the 5C/1394 combination becomes widespread, wideband component will continue to be supported (in my opinion) on HD sources just as they still have composite video and RCA stereo audio outs (who uses these any more? obviously a few people out there
If Firewire/5C outputs become the defacto standard, I predict that component outputs will disappear much faster than you say. The reason is cost. A STB or recorder with Firewire/5C doesn't have to contain an MPEG2 decoder -- in fact it doesn't have to decode the HDTV signal at all. (Neither does a recording device) That job is left to the display device. Since MPEG2 decoders are fairly costly, why include them if you don't have to?
 

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Quote:
A STB or recorder with Firewire/5C doesn't have to contain an MPEG2 decoder -- in fact it doesn't have to decode the HDTV signal at all. (Neither does a recording device)
Well yeah, but a recording device will want to record a compressed signal to save storage space, so it makes sense for it to record the already-compressed MPEG2 signal rather than having to recompress it...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Engine-Ear,


The CE manufacturers will make a D-VHS with OTA HD built in for the following reasons:


1. Greed. The first buyers will be you and I- the early adopters with HD-Ready sets as well as the FPTV audience which is a pretty deep market as it's been around a lot longer.


2. Fear. Of class action lawsuits if they don't.


Murray Kerdman
 

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I don't think any legacy users have anything to worry about.

Think about it:


There are (were) three ways to record PREMEIUM HDTV:


1) Dish 5000 with HDTV modulator feeding a Panasonic DST50/51 combo. How many people own these? Yes the new PVR cards can also record from the 5000 receiver but at 8GB per hour and tape archive at $50 per 40GB and not real time, this is hardly a threat.


2) WVHS. In addition to being a discontinued format, it is analog and does not make very good recording. Certinantly not good enough for duplication.


3) Professional VTR's fed via component analog. The cheapest machines start at $50,000. They only accept SMPTE 292 digital video interface. This is not 1394 or DVI. A analog to digital convertor costs about $10,000. Add another $10,000 to get the SMPTE292 digital output back to RGB to feed yout projector/monitor. Oh, and these machines use tape that costs $30 per hour.


Ironically, as a hardware engineer with 20 years broadcast television expereince, I think the digital interfaces are far more prone to hacking. Analog HDTV interfaces are never ideal and use very high bandwidths. Compressed digital interfaces using standard computer electrical interfaces can be recorded to disk and studied off-line. Furthermore this information always leaks. The DBS card hackers don't just figure it out. They get hold of classified information from ex employees or through other illegal channels.


Based on that I don't think analog boxes will ever be "shut down" They may not be supported after 7 years. By the time that happens hopefully the whole copy protection issue will be solved the same way it has always been done. HD DVD's in the supermarket isle at $14.99. First release for those who must have it will be $29.95. Simply get the price right and the studios make a lot of money and nobody has the time to copy it.


100" screens and HDTV in every home, that's really what the MPAA is worried about. Remember the MPAA represents the theatres, then the studios interest.
 

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Quote:
100" screens and HDTV in every home, that's really what the MPAA is worried about. Remember the MPAA represents the theatres, then the studios interest.
If I represented the MPAA or the Studios I would not want a new and better format being broadcast and recorded yet.


One reason to stall would be because all the great movies that have not yet even been sold as DVD's. Once all the VHS tapes have been released and sold as DVD's then it would be the time to stop stalling and accept another format.


But you can't just dump that many DVD's on the market too fast without killing the price, so you have to stall for a few years until the DVD market for existing movies slows down.


Then come out with HDVD and do it again. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


- Tom





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I don't get the MPAA's concerns at all. They had the same issues with TV back in the 50's and VCR's in the late 70's early 80's. Both times their revenue went thru the roof because of the enhanced availability of their product. I can only see the movie studios making more money with HDTV, why can't they?


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Quote:
They had the same issues with TV back in the 50's and VCR's in the late 70's early 80's.
Ken -


The history of those two tells us two things.


- That they will eventually make more money from it, and


- That they will be dragged kicking, screaming, and stalling all the way.


I can't explain it any better, but that's what I'd expect. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif


- Tom



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I think 100" screens and HDTV resolutions are a greater threat to the theatre than previous generations of home viewable formats (TV, VCR, DVD, etc.). The reason is that TV and VCR represented a broadening in availability for a viewing experience that in no way approached a theatre.


I think DVD in my home theatre knocks the socks off of film in a commercial movie theatre. My picture is clearer, and the sound is better. And there are those tangential benefits; 1) no popcorn butter on the floor, 2) a beer in my hand, 3) I can stop the movie to get rid of the old beer and refill the one that I am drinking, 4) no kids with laser pointers in the theatre, 5) for a DVD that I have purchased, no marginal cost of seeing it again.


So, I have totally stopped going to commercial movie theaters. I suspect many of you have as well. If we represent the early adopter trend, and the MPAA represents the incumbent method, then they absolutely have something to worry about (except for the teenage market which goes to the theatre for the social aspect of it).


Cheers,


Bernd
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by BenBroder:
If Firewire/5C outputs become the defacto standard, I predict that component outputs will disappear much faster than you say. The reason is cost. A STB or recorder with Firewire/5C doesn't have to contain an MPEG2 decoder -- in fact it doesn't have to decode the HDTV signal at all. (Neither does a recording device) That job is left to the display device. Since MPEG2 decoders are fairly costly, why include them if you don't have to?
But if you want to do on screen guide or a menu or such you have to include a MPEG Encoder, which is much more expensive than a decoder. If you want to overlay channel numbers or a banner on the video stream you are going to need to decode it anyways and a possibly a much stronger encoder.
 

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I think Glimmie has it figured out. The 1394 digits will be 5C encrypted but component inputs will be around for awhile. They can't stop serious thieves no matter what they do and the common man isn't going to spend big dollars to record component signals if he can buy a $1000 (or less) 1394 DVHS recorder. As long as the CE folks don't develop a cheap component recorder or a cheap method to digitize and compress component signals there isn't a huge threat (IMO). The CE mfgr's don't have a huge reason to develop either of these items because the future is 1394 HAVi. Napster/MP3's has the MPAA very concerned about the same thing happening with movies but that's not pratical unless the data is compressed and component video isn't very internet friendly....


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Quote:
I think Glimmie has it figured out. The 1394 digits will be 5C encrypted but component inputs will be around for awhile.
I hope you are right, but if we start seeing many new (non-selling) STB's with only digital + s-video outputs then we will know their intentions are otherwise.


I'd especially watch the cable guys for this.


- Tom


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I don’t like all the new copy protection schemes but I see them as a unfortunate necessity what we must get used to and can’t let them force use into ignoring better technology like IEEE 1394/Firewire. So with that in mind, here is my vision of the future:


Firewire will be the future standard for ALL connections and it will start to happen fast. Sure there will be backward compatibility, just as there are still phono inputs on almost all receivers, but analog inputs will start to be limited in the next 3 years or so. The reason is not just copy protection, but QUALITY!


We now live in a world where we do not have to enter the analog realm until audio amplification and video display (analog conversion for display will soon be eliminated too thanks to DLP and plasma/LCD) so why do we convert to analog on the component side? It just makes sense to keep everything pure digital until the last possible moment. With firewire we can send everything as a digital bit-stream to the audio receiver/amp and the display and let them convert the signal. What will happen is you will get much better audio conversion because you will be able to afford to spend more on your audio receiver which has better DACs because your components will cost less because they will not need MPEG2 decompression hardware. You DVD player will be just a transport and nothing else. You wont need an external STB for DTV because soon the TV sets will have them built in. You Dish Network or DirecTV box will not need MPEG2 hardware either. Your D-VHS won’t need it. See the trend?


Cheaper components, better quality video/audio, much easier setup (one thin standard cable for audio and video), and better remote control. Every component will have a menu on your TV so you wont need a ton of buttons on the components. If any of you have seen how easy a well designed on screen menu can be, then you understand how great the future will be. Components will be judged not as much as their performance (because a lot of what we think of now will not be handled by them anymore) but on their quality of the menu systems.


What will be even more important in the future will be the quality of your TV insides and im not talking quality of the projection system. Your TV will be very important in not just displaying the video right, but also in the decoding of the bit-streams well. With DLP and LCD technology removing a lot of the setup and tweaking that CRTs need, we will be shopping for TVs with the best software/hardware quality.


[This message has been edited by interspec (edited 05-15-2001).]
 

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interspec -


I agree with most of the above, but those are benefits of digital technology, not necessarily Firewire, and certainly not of copy protection.

Quote:
With DLP and LCD technology removing a lot of the setup and tweaking that CRTs need, we will be shopping for TVs with the best software/hardware quality.
But how do I send high bandwidth video to my DLP or LCD projectors without mpeg2 compressing it first? I'm thinking about computers here. If I had a projector that accepted only Firewire and I had PC with a cheap TV card in it running dScaler software would I be able to use the projector as a display? I don't think Firewire has the bandwidth to take a stream of pixels like that.


Or hi rez high action video games, or any constructed bit mapped computer video. Have they corrected the bandwidth problem? Or do they just assume Firewire displays won't be connected to computers?


Not to mention that PC's are considered way too unsecured to ever get a license to process protected material anyway.


As an HTPC person I think I'll pass for now.


- Tom





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Quote:
Originally posted by trbarry:

Or do they just assume Firewire displays won't be connected to computers?
Well, since most of us will be buying all new gear anyway to be compatible with this wonderful interface, what's a little more for an MPAA-approved Personal Controller?



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Tom -


Why would you want to send uncompressed video? Remember the laserdisc? That was analog video and DVD proved to vastly superior. I don't see to many laserdisc holdouts like you see with vinyl. Even highbandwidth component video has limits and isn't as good as a pure digital connection. This will be more noticeable the more you enlarge the image, especially with long cable runs.


The days of analog video on the computer is quickly fading too. Once LCD prices fall more, there will be no CRTs on your desktop and DVI interface will take over.


Anyhow, it doesn't really matter. I know there will be analog video inputs in the future because legacy hardware always sticks around. Heck, we still have a 3.5 floppy's in computers, and you still can buy 5 1/4" drives and disks! So I am sure there will be manufactures, especially high end ones that support component connections. Do you think the MPAA cares about the trivial amount of projectors that Runco sales.


I just see firewire as a God send, even if some of its is directly from hell.
 
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