[Addicted Help!!]

I have used 250wpc into 8 ohms for about 5 years because I had liked having the masive power reserve, and being able to drive my speakers really loud and full on demanding DVD scenes where the scene was really dynamic, and long. I had noticed that with 125 and 150 wpc amps that they couldn't reach that volume very often where the amp didn't sound strained and in mid fi, even the few that could still couldn't handle a long scene of really demanding material.


At the end of last year I went from INfinity Kappa 7's to the new INfinity Kappa 600's, a bigger but more efficient speaker, even though they were rated by Infinity the same. I also started wondering if now that I had more moderna nd substantial mains, if I needed a slightly better sonic amp for music to further my quest. There was nothing wrong with my Krell KAV 3250, but at the same time it just didn't grab my heart on music like I wished.


I than decided maybe I could go down to say 150 instead of 250wpc , but also go up sonically on music quality, and I ended up picking a Pass labs X3, which I have already said I love in that regard.


I finally have a friend that bought the old KAV 3250 that I just gave up, and so I could test it on my speakers and than the Pass. I ended up with 3 movies that really eat amps on dynamic power and demand really strong peaks, and what I found is my Pass X3 can go as loud as I can stand, and even puts out more umph on the punchy scenes than the greater powered Krell, while still delivering better sonic signature.


There may be a situation where 250wpc is needed, but with my 3 way, 10 inch non powered main, with 6 and a 1/2 inch mid and tweeter, that isn't the case. Had I not tested this and confirmed it with the very amp type I just gave up, I would not be sure that if you get the right 150wpc amp, at a really high quality level like the Pass, that it can deliver much more power without distortion or strain than many of the lessor but still quality lower mid fi amps I have tried in the past can do.


It may boil down to the Pass doubling down to 2 ohms with doubling power like the Krells do, where many of the lessor cost amps do not come close to doing so, but I had to share this with you guys, because now that I know that this 150wpc amp can do everything power wise that my past 250 could do, I lost nothing by going down in power, and got more music ability for trading the difference.



This is probably the case with other 150wpc or mid 100 rated amps that are really well built, but as a person that long ago concluded I had to have 250wpc for those really dynamic scenes, when others of you go for better overall sounds of the heart, I just want you to know that you may not give up anything powerwise in doing so, unless your speakers are really rare exceptions in todays market.


This is very good news for anyone that faces what I recently faced in that I wanted to rediscover loving the music, and in doing so didn't want to pay only for amps that would do 250 wpc or more, becuase that also limits many well made units from being considered, when there is much more than X's and O's when it comes to filling the soul and the ear's while listening. While my quest for power seems to have ended, I now know that eventually I will hear many of the great amp designeers signature products to see and hear just how well what isn't listed on specs has been done to sell them. I had almost forgotten this, until late last year, I heard my old Threshold amplifier from the 80's at my dad's house, where it has remained since I gave it to him more than 10 years ago, and realized that from a signature stand point, on old and lessor speakers, and with a basic yamaha receiver I still loved the identity of that amplifier, even more than my much more current and expensive modern day amplifier.

 

[DMF]

I've maintained that older equipment can often sound better (or at least the equal of) new equipment. Just wish I could play around with gear as good as yours though.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

I just went through this process. Had Acurus 200W/ch amps for 8 years or so. I "learned" that lower power can actually be beneficial if you don't need higher power for room size, speaker efficiency, etc. Went to Proceeds rated at 125 W/ch. The Proceeds also run a lot deeper into class A, which is nice. Also came across the fact that a lot of British mags actually really prefer lower power amps and integrated amps.


One other thing, is that doubling the power of an amplifier, only gets you a real-world increase in volume of only 3 dB. Most people don't know that. So a 200W/ch amp is *not* twice as loud as a 100W/ch amp.


Funny one: in the early to mid 90's I had a Nakamichi PA-5AII. 150W/ch, stasis class. They licensed the design from Nelson Pass and Threshold. To this day, that is still one of the best sounding amps I've ever heard. And ... it was manufactured in 1988.

 

[tubeguy44]

Quote:

One other thing, is that doubling the power of an amplifier, only gets you a real-world increase in volume of only 3 dB. Most people don't know that. So a 200W/ch amp is *not* twice as loud as a 100W/ch amp.

the overall volume is not the main reason for the additional power...... very demanding music can suddenly require a huge amount of power to reproduce those high level transients that will cause an underpowered amp to clip......


listen to the cincinnati pops SACD recording of the 1812 overture at a reasonable level for the first 12 minutes or so and everything is fine until the cannons go off.....


the internal amps of my pioneer elite 55txi are rated for 100 watts per channel, but when that cannon went off they were clipping.....


when i played the same passage at the same overall volume with my carver professional ZR1000 digital amp (225 watts per channel) powering the mains - no clipping at all....


do i need all 225 watts everyday... no.....


but i am very glad they are there when the music calls for it..... not to mention that the ZR amp sound great at all dynamic levels....

 

[proudx]

if you are running a powered subwoofer then the amp shouldn't clip when the cannons go off, correct?

 

[tubeguy44]

Quote:

Originally posted by proudx if you are running a powered subwoofer then the amp shouldn't clip when the cannons go off, correct?

if you listen to that particular recording, you will hear cannons in all the speakers, not just the subs..... there is a great amount of "cannon" sound that is above the crossover point......


more cannon sound actually comes from the mains than from the subs.....


these are smaller cannons....almost like signal cannons.....

 

[proudx]

hey tubeguy you think my amp can handle the cannons, hear are the specs..

http://www.odysseyaudiosg.com/Khartago.htm

 

[tubeguy44]

Quote:

Originally posted by proudx hey tubeguy you think my amp can handle the cannons, hear are the specs.. http://www.odysseyaudiosg.com/Khartago.htm

that amp puts out a 110 watts @ 8 ohms..... depends upon how loud you have it turned up and how efficient your speakers are....


i use my carver pro ZR amp to power very efficient klipsch KLF-30 mains... (102 db @ 1watt @ 1meter).... and the amp briefly hit the red led's on the front (meaning it was hitting the rated output - 225 watts) on those cannon shots....


get the disc.... it is a great recording and start at a low volume... there is even a warning label on the outside of the disc that cautions you about the excessive volumes....

 

[Johnla]

Playing the same recording of the 1812, on either the vinyl or CD versions. (as I have both) And while running the amp at a average of about 10 watts during the beginning, in the quite passages. And using a Carver M1.5t amp (rated at 350 wpc rms, and 600 wpc short term) and pair of Klipsch LaScala's, which are 104db efficient. I have hit the top yellow warning LED's on the Carver amp, when the cannon shots hit. And that means the amp just hit 600watts. So watch out, that recording of the 1812 can, and will tax just about any system that you can play it on.

http://www.telarc.com/gscripts/title...05AFURQNL6E9K7


"When the 1812 was released, the cover read "Caution! Digital Cannons," and the interior of the booklet warned the listener that "the cannons of the Telarc 1812 Overture are recorded at a very high level. Lower levels are recommended for initial playback until a safe level can be determined for your equipment."


We still must caution you to be careful of the initial playback volume for the sections with the cannons, as there is extremely taxing low frequency and transient information that could damage your equipment, especially your speakers, if you play them at excessively high levels. Countless hours were spent to keep the recording sonically challenging, but still accessible to all levels of playback equipment. The better your equipment, the more you can shake the walls, and the more detail you will hear. Have fun, but be careful!"

 

[GX-Alan]

How does the CD layer on the SACD of 1812 compare to the original CD recording?

 

[Johnla]

Quote:

Originally posted by GX-Alan How does the CD layer on the SACD of 1812 compare to the original CD recording?

I can't say, I have not bought either the SACD or the DVD-Audio version yet. I only have the vinyl (you know those funny old round 12" black discs, that have those numerous squiggly grooves cut in them) version, which BTW was/is a major headache for a lot of turntable and stereo cartridges for it to play properly without having mis-tracking problems. And the original CD version.


BTW:

On the vinyl version, the grooves for just the cannon shots. Look like they were cut by hand with a razor blade, by a one eyed, one legged drunken sailor while standing on a ship in a gail storm. As the grooves cuts, are that big, and with that much space between them!

 

[audionut101]

Addicted Help!!- you have NOW seen the light Now the real question is, are you willing to pay $$$ for it????


My favorite amps of all time are pass labx x250, jeff rowland and the old california audio labs. There were never any other amps that pushed my system "right" like those manufacturers. I have demo'd a number- here is what is off the top of my head- aragon, citation, parasound, classe, outlaw, ati, earthquake, proceed, levinson, sunfire, sherbourn, spectron and I found all of them lacking in one aspect or another. Only the pass, rowland, and CAL made my setup "sing".

 

[Addicted Help!!]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin C Brown I just went through this process. Had Acurus 200W/ch amps for 8 years or so. I "learned" that lower power can actually be beneficial if you don't need higher power for room size, speaker efficiency, etc. Went to Proceeds rated at 125 W/ch. The Proceeds also run a lot deeper into class A, which is nice. Also came across the fact that a lot of British mags actually really prefer lower power amps and integrated amps. One other thing, is that doubling the power of an amplifier, only gets you a real-world increase in volume of only 3 dB. Most people don't know that. So a 200W/ch amp is *not* twice as loud as a 100W/ch amp. Funny one: in the early to mid 90's I had a Nakamichi PA-5AII. 150W/ch, stasis class. They licensed the design from Nelson Pass and Threshold. To this day, that is still one of the best sounding amps I've ever heard. And ... it was manufactured in 1988.

I used the Proceed HPA 250 x 3, and it was a nice musical amp. What I didn't like, but Levinson and proceed proud owners do is the lack of lower extension, in fact less than any amp I have ever used,but they offset it by huge midrange, so I concluded it isn't a weakness, but a preference, and I just didn't want to give it up while many listeners don't mind.


I had 2 Nakamichi's and the one I had with the Nelson influence was the PA 7 I believe was the number, and than I also had the 100 x 5 with the Harmonic time allignment, and I really liked the sonics on both those amps. Nac uses Yamaha for all their home stuff in the US now and that is a shame because they really were the best HT combined with music integrity company out there till the Mid 90's. I had the PA 1 and CA1 which was the Pre amp and amplifier combo that they also sold as a receiver, but the amps in the reciever weren't quite as good so I went separates. I think I have the numbers right.


Another amp that went away and pissed me off because Aragon's last stuff was just sonically killer and I was looking at the 3 x 200 for 5k version, and just loved it on music and than Klipsch was buying them, and I hated their Acurus lessor line, although for it's price it was great, I just didn't like them for my price point, and so I feared when Klipsch took over I would get no support and so I waited and they took over and basically renamed Acurus to be Aragon and priced in between, making a lessor product for a higher price. Why buy a company with no market name, but a great product and keep the name and get rid of the higher end product?


This Pass has more punch than the HPA at 250 wpc did, but stilll has the sonic smoothness of a musical based amp, so I am quite happy.


W"hen you talk about 100 wpc not being 200, you are right, but when you double sound to a listener, you are raising db by only 3db aren't you?


What I noticed with amps that don't double down is that when you get really dynamic scenes, amps that don't do so, seem to have sound flat as the dynamics are tested, while those that can handle it sound seemless from an explosion to a whisper, where you never hear a sense of detail loss or a strain from one end of the spectrum to the other, and when I went downward on watts by so much, but had such large speakers I was a little worried on movies if I could still rattle the room without hte amp really working hard.


You may someday want to conisider the 3 channel and lessor 2 channel solution because I have found that the 3 channels are far superior to the same lines in 5, because of design intentions where the 5 is all you can fit in a price point and a 3 is more audiofile built, and Proceeds' BPA 3 and 2 are a good example compared to their AMP 5, just like the Pass X5 is no challenge to a X3, even though the all in one is still a good amp when compared to others. I went that way because I thought that they rear is just mostly bing, bam , boom, while the froont is where the music comes from. The X5 has 125 wpc, while the X3 has 150, but more importantly the x150 which is the 2 channel both of these are based on has 40 output devices, and that is 20 a channel, where the X5 has 8 per channel, the X3 still has the 40, but now has 14 each for the left and right and 12 for the center, and that is a big difference on sonic detail and you can hear it big time. I am glad I got rid of that HPA for a 2nd reason and that is I didn't like having a 117 pounds on the bottom of my Bello rack, because it made even slight movements require a permit where I live.


I liked your post and am amazed at how much equipment we have shared.

 

[Addicted Help!!]

Quote:

Originally posted by proudx if you are running a powered subwoofer then the amp shouldn't clip when the cannons go off, correct?

The reason the amp clips is because you run scenes that have multiple speakers running at really high outputs for several minutes, and the only statement I have ever made to an explosion is toward the end of the long scene where late explosions sound flat. I run my speakers at 40hz, but when you do your example of a a canon exploding, you do still get a great deal of that sound through your normal speakers also, so your statement isn't really like anything I am saying, but reads like you think it is, so I wanted to clarify that.



I never have thought that it was one single sound that has ever made a amp of mine clip, butwhen I read your post it sure sounds like that is what you think I am trying to say. I hope that clears up what I mean when I talk about amps not handling dynamics, and up your vein many subs clip huge when they get tested , and others seem to distort just about everything, and friends of mine rave about how the distortion rumbles the room, and I just laugh and say yup that sure is loud, and walk away slowly with my back away from them smiling. That is a different subject, but since you introduced subwoofers and scenes clipping , it reminded me of situations where that is all someof them seem to do.

 

[Addicted Help!!]

Quote:

Originally posted by audionut101 Addicted Help!!- you have NOW seen the light Now the real question is, are you willing to pay $$$ for it???? My favorite amps of all time are pass labx x250, jeff rowland and the old california audio labs. There were never any other amps that pushed my system "right" like those manufacturers. I have demo'd a number- here is what is off the top of my head- aragon, citation, parasound, classe, outlaw, ati, earthquake, proceed, levinson, sunfire, sherbourn, spectron and I found all of them lacking in one aspect or another. Only the pass, rowland, and CAL made my setup "sing".

I wanted to be able toget my dream speaker for audio setup, and if that were today I have 3 or 4 that I really like all between 9 and 15,000 a pair,and I would have the right room with the right distance all the way around, and I than wanted a amp like the X3 that I could add a 2 channel or mono set up and I listened to the 250, but havne't heard the 350 and depending on which I like better that is what I would add to run the mains for my pure audio set up. The pass people admit the 250 is the sweetheart of the line sonically tilll you get to the 600's mono block, but I have several pass friends on the net and have heard enough say they liked the 350 better for other than power that I would have to hear both when I have those speakers.


I haven't heard the Roland, but woudl like to, and think I am confusing the CAL because there is a company that makes a 500 x5 named that but it isn't at the level of even this X3, even though the price is close, so there must be 2. I really really like this amp sonically and had a chance to get a X350 for under 4500 a few months back but it wasn't local and I dont have my dream speakers yet so I didn't do it, because it was cart before the horse, but I was tempted.


I have always been into amps,and it has been a long time since I heard a amp that really makes my hair's stand up, and I am just glad they can still do that. I already have 4 friends that have heard this and just been amazed how much more they like it than their more name brand amp ofmore power, so I think more htan a few of my friends will be into pass really soon.

 

[tubeguy44]

Quote:

Originally posted by Addicted Help!! The reason the amp clips is because you run scenes that have multiple speakers running at really high outputs for several minutes, and the only statement I have ever made to an explosion is toward the end of the long scene where late explosions sound flat. I run my speakers at 40hz, but when you do your example of a a canon exploding, you do still get a great deal of that sound through your normal speakers also, so your statement isn't really like anything I am saying, but reads like you think it is, so I wanted to clarify that. I never have thought that it was one single sound that has ever made a amp of mine clip, butwhen I read your post it sure sounds like that is what you think I am trying to say. I hope that clears up what I mean when I talk about amps not handling dynamics, and up your vein many subs clip huge when they get tested , and others seem to distort just about everything, and friends of mine rave about how the distortion rumbles the room, and I just laugh and say yup that sure is loud, and walk away slowly with my back away from them smiling. That is a different subject, but since you introduced subwoofers and scenes clipping , it reminded me of situations where that is all someof them seem to do.

you need to go back and re-read this thread...... the cannons that are being referred to are in the SACD recording of the 1812 overture by the cinncinatti pops recorded on the telarc label - NOT in a movie soundtrack,,,


if you were familiar with that recording (or with the 1812 overture in general), you would realize that your theory is totally incorrect.... there is a crescendo that leads up to the cannon shots, but what you are describing is not happening......


when i use my carver professional amplifier, i can visually see the power output level via the led's on the front of the amp...everything is running at 5 to 10 watts and then the cannon goes off and the led's go into the red - which indicates 225 watts of power output for that brief blast.....


actually, i cannot imagine ANY quality amplifier responding in the way you suggest..... such a slow recovery would indicate a very weak or small power supply.....

 

[proudx]

can anyone please send me a link to this dvd audio version of the content we are discusing.

 

[Johnla]

Quote:

Originally posted by proudx can anyone please send me a link to this dvd audio version of the content we are discusing.

It's the same link as the one I posted above. But here it is again.

http://www.telarc.com/gscripts/title...05AFURQNL6E9K7


Reviews for mainly the SACD version are there.

And some people, from other reviews I have read, seem to think the SACD version is a bit better than the DVD-Audio version. But I'd guess, it's still way above your average DVD-Audio disc.


Scroll down all the way to the bottom of the page, and you will see both versions for sale there. In addition to the CD only version that is at the very top of the page.


SACD-60541 Super Audio CD version $19.99


DVD-A-70541 DVD Audio version $24.95

 

[Fife]

Here you go:

Tchaikovsky: 1812 Overture:The New Recording


First track.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Yes, the PA 7 and there was also a PA-7IIa. I don't know what the improvements were. I actually have a review of the PA 7! Goes into excruciating detail about the Stasis circuit and negative feedback (pros and cons). Reviews in the old days were a lot more technical (and cool!) than they are now.