[RickD_99]

Now that it appears that 169time has a working beta firmware version of their DTC-100 firewire mod that allows recording of DirecTV HD signals the question becomes: can DirecTV send down electronic counter measures to defeat this capability as they now do with hacked access cards?


It would be nice if 169time could provide some more info on this possibility for those of us considering blowing $1000 or more on this new toy!

 

[h2ofun]

If one is legally getting direct tv, I dont know why this is even a question.

Nothing that I see going on will change your need for a valid subscription.

Mine is valid and I have no concerns since legal setups have never been impacted by the counter measures. Now if one doesnt have a legal setup, who knows.


This still doesnt mean I can read the future but I have no concerns.


dave

 

[RickD_99]

Quote:

Originally posted by h2ofun If one is legally getting direct tv, I dont know why this is even a question. dave [/b]

Ummm it's a quite valid and serious question for legal subscribers like myself...what are the chances that the mod I just paid $1000 for yesterday will suddenly stop working tonight or tomorrow or next week due to something that DirecTV chooses to send down to affected units? I have no inside technical knowledge of what Richard has done...I'm just trying to understand ALL of the issues involved so that I can make an educated decision as a consumer. I think it would behoove 169time to be upfront and honest about the possibility of ECMs as they advertise their product. I have a DISH 5000/HD modulator setup and and have understood from the get go that the possibility of DISH shutting down the 5000 setup is and has been always there. I just want to know

if the same situation exists for the modded DTC-100s.

 

[h2ofun]

I dont think you will get any kind of promise like you are looking for.

No company could do that.


Dave

 

[dahester]

Nothing is guaranteed on any satellite system. With a pending merger, in the long term it's impossible to tell what will be working and what will be disabled. It's more likely that all DTC-100s will someday be EOL (like Dish 5000 for HD channels). I seriously doubt that DTV would go after a 'DTC-169' with an ECM. It may not even be possible for DTV to detect the presence of a 169Time mod in the receiver...


-Dylan

 

[HiDefGuy]

Must confess that this is prime among the reasons stopping me from going for the mod of my old DTC100. In fairness to 169 there's no way they could give any warranty over HD switchoff for the modded machines (It looks like the Dish 5000 machines with the HD module will be history by the end of the year, so nothing is permanent), but there seems to me a good chance that DirecTV would switch off HD reception for those machines it deems as having been modified without official sanction. And my guess is that the potential numbers for modified DTC100's is *far* greater than available HD modules for Dish 5000's, resulting in DirecTV getting an earful from HD providers.


Greg

 

[rashid11]

From technology point of view, within the STB, at some point, a

de-crypted transport streams (bits -> bytes -> packets -> frames -> HD picture) has to flow.


Transport streams for MPEG2 are will known and published in 20+ books. Not sure just how proprietory DTV's own TS is, chances are it is not very different from the standard one. There ARE differences though, and they are likely the sole reason for 169 not having DTV recording out just yet (it IS already working though, in their lab, see the _other thread



All that 16x9's modification does, is tap into this bitstream, do some massaging (TS, that is used for MPEG2 over Firewire is different from what travels inside of DTC100) and shoots it out of Firewire port.


Neither the STB, nor (naturally) DTV is aware that this stream is tapped into. I doubt that DTV can do anything to defeat this either. Simply because there HAS to be MPEG2 stream, entering the built-in MPEG2 Decoder.


I, personally, will purchase 169 gizmo as soon as they fully support DTV time-shifting.


Inasmuch as I admire 169 for realizing a business opp, going through lots of pain and technical challenges to make it reality, I have significant doubts about the whole thing.


While we have right to time-shift, I am afraid MPAA's Shuyster,Shuyster'n'Shuyster legal team will find something to blackmail any company, that dares to record-enable HD content, out of business. I hope 169 is playing it smart, so that they can keep the money they have earned, when and if the certified letter comes.


Of course ) ... if MPAA plays dirty (do they know any other way ?) there is no guarantee that the schematics won't show up on the Web . I haven't see the mod, but I'd bet half the house it is built on Xilinx FPGA along with TI's Firewire chipset - total of $60 worth of components. All one needs is a $1 tiny chip that holds the firmware... I betcha they will be 100 or so PCB houses here and in Canada, aching to sell you the PCB for $10.99. Soldering iron, flux and some solder will set you back another $8 at your local RatShack


Anyway, because of the threat, I advise quick action - as soon as DTV recording is officially announced by 169, get your module !



With Dish's marriage to DTV being on hold, we are bound to have 2-3 years of HD-recording heaven ahead of us.


For the sake of all of us - don't scream here or anywhere else about "recording HD from DTV" . Use a much more appropriate

term of "time-shifting".

 

[frthomas]

IMHO for the moment, DirecTV is too concerned about ECM'ing pirate viewers than regular ones with a modified STB.


Now given all the hoopla around digital input/outputs and copy protection, DirecTV might be forced in the future to disable such devices (essentially outputting "free" HD digital signals).


However, from what I know of digital STB architectures and ECMs, it is unlikely they could do it.

 

[Glimmie]

I'll second what Rashid11 said. I don't see how they can detect a "tap" modification.

 

[Glimmie]

Quote:

Originally posted by frthomas IMHO for the moment, DirecTV is too concerned about ECM'ing pirate viewers than regular ones with a modified STB. Now given all the hoopla around digital input/outputs and copy protection, DirecTV might be forced in the future to disable such devices (essentially outputting "free" HD digital signals). However, from what I know of digital STB architectures and ECMs, it is unlikely they could do it.

You know this mod may have another benefit. If they do shut down the analog VGA output on protected material, which the DTC100 can do, the 169 mod will still record the stream? Then port it to your HiPix or PAnny STB with the WinXP utilities.

 

[bpearse]

I guess the real question is whether Direct TV might make the same switch that Dish is making - to another carrier format which makes the 5000 obsolete - which might also make the DTC-100 obsolete. I think that is more likely than any ECM.

 

[h2ofun]

The world will get hit by a big meteor some day. We will have the big quake in the bay area some day. All known sat solutions being used today will no longer work some day. In the mean time, my 3 dtc100's just record away and make my library larger. I may not even be alive tomorrow but am sure having fun today.


dave

 

[rashid11]

There R quite a few movies on HBO HD that I would like to time-shift too.

I guess it is any day now


@ this point I got zilch - but as soon as mod can record DTV, I will drive to j&R and pick up a JVC ... well, may be will order it to be shipped and save me some $

 

[HiDefGuy]

Quote:

Originally posted by bpearse I guess the real question is whether Direct TV might make the same switch that Dish is making - to another carrier format which makes the 5000 obsolete - which might also make the DTC-100 obsolete. I think that is more likely than any ECM.

With the large number of manufacturer STB's for DirecTV there's no way that they could implement this unless it's a simple firmware update.

 

[rashid11]

Nothing having to do with any kind of changes to millions of STBs is simple No matter how many people here and in CA enjoy bootlegged

DTV, it aint worth the risk to try to go after them in this radical fashion.


Plus, when and if DTV is done footing the bill for Dish's acquisition, I betcha they will be reeeeeal quiet and customer friendly for quite some time.


I'd say DTV has it made - with very nice 3LNB dish it is markedly superior to Dish's stuff, so it shall be Dish's subs that should be converted, eventually, to DTV receivers. This way there is no interruption, as existing DTV customers'd be blisfully unaware of any changes at all, while Dish's former subs can swap their receivers @ their convenience as well.

 

[zeitgeistdr]

I just question the idea of a 1000 dollar modification, if that figure is really correct. It doesn't make sense to me to take a 2cond generation HDTV satellite receiver and put 1000 dollars into it when I can spend the same amount or less on better units with better circuits and components and better firmware with built in firewire capabilities over the next six months or so. Sure, I miss taping in that short period of time but over the long run I end up with a better receiver that hasn't been modified out of it's warranty. Am I missing something here or is this mostly about a short term solution or is it about spending 1000 bucks to avoid copyright protections?


dave

 

[h2ofun]

Dave, tell me one product that says it will let you record sat signals without a bunch of but its up to the sender on whether the signal can be recorded to tape?

Based on past experience, one in the hand is worth many in the bush.

Hye, its just money. So far in the past when lots of folks got excited about the next new stb that was going to blow away the dtc100, well, I dont believe one of them lived up to the hype.


In electronics, 6 months is a long time. My library just continues to grow and grow.


dave

 

[Don Landis]

While I don't think the 169Time modification will be susceptable to any ECM and I doubt seriously whether DirecTV security people will even budget to develop an ECM to target the 169Time modification if it is even possible considering the small numbers of devices in use. But, I do know there may be an issue with the 169Time's 1394 firewire modification and, Dave, if you could ask Richard to elaborate on it maybe my fears are unfounded.


This has to do with 5C copy protection. All three of the VCR's in use contain 5C circuitry so that if a 5C bit is set for copy once, using a complete 5C 1394 compliant system will allow a single copy to be made. If the 5C is set for copy many, then many copies can be made and of course if it is set for copy none, then the 5C will prevent any copy. Now consider that a 1394 circuit is not completely compliant. This IS the case with the 169Time modification ( right?) in that in order to use the 5C circuitry, 169Time would be required to license the technology and code. I also know that for 5C to work, it needs to be used at both ends of the 1394 termination. Since all three DVHS VCR's are compliant, then only factory original DST50's with original firmware and the 169Time mod DTC-100 will not contain 5C licensed encryption and possibly some computer HDEF cards with 1394. What does this mean? According to some experts on 5C, if part of the 5C circuit is not functional, then any program with 5C, even copy many bit set, the program will not be able to be copied even if the provider set it for copy once or copy many. AFAIK, all programming today does not contain the 5C encryption. There have been some reports of tapes, ie demo tapes that have been encrypted as copy none, but no broadcast that I have heard of has had the 5C added. However, in the future, it seems to me that most programming will begin to include this and if your 169time is not compliant, it will be rendered useless unless 169Time can find a way to add this to their product. It would seem that the addition will be a simple one but at a cost. It should be as simple as adding it to the 1394 firmware code in the eproms.


OK, these are my thoughts on obsolescence of the 169 Time mod that has nothing to do with mergers and such. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[hdtv_moron]

Geee. It seems to be pretty simple to me. If an HD stream has 5C encryption, forget about copy bits. Without a 5C decrypter - you are not going to see the material.


Again, if the stream is 5C protected, then _any_ DTC-100 will not be able to show the material (I don't thing the DTC-100 has a 5C decryption chip in it but I could be wrong).


So I guess what I am saying is a DTC-100 with or without a 169time mod is out of luck concerning 5C. That is unless 169time can make a 5C decrypter (with license). But based on your question it seems that is not the case.


I might have missed something here but it seems awfully simple to me.

 

[h2ofun]

I dont believe the dtc100 with the mod will behave any different than the dtc100 without the mod. They are not breaking anything like this. Sure dont want a call from the MPAA.


As an interesting data point. I was copying a live HDnet program to my US JVC one night when as it started to tape, it came up with an error saying one could not record the content. The next night when I tried to tape it worked fine. So its clear the bits are out there and can be used.


dave