AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 32 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
6,660 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Now that re-tubing for a Electrohome Marquee 8500 8" tubed 1100 lumen projector can easily cost less than $1800, where is the VAUNTED, I might add, and say again VAUNTED superiority of something like a DILA projector, or the like?


If th bulb for such a DILA can cost $1500, then, where does the value come in? If CRT unit can deliver considerably better contrast, which INERENTLY, on it's own brings about the impression of considerably more image quality, then where does DILA get off? Or LCD? Or DLP?


If re-tubing is suddenly so cheap, then that brings CRT back to the front of the pack. It has image quality in the kind of spades that notning in this entire digital PJ forum can even come close to competing with, and now, it's maintenence cost have DROPPED, considerably. Basically, any CRT unit with 8" MEC tubes, and more tubes will be added to the list... like 9" tubes for the really BIG PJ's.


If you are hunting around in this digital forum, for something of extreme quality, and are looking HARD to get into that 'willing suspension of disbelief' mode.. then nothing but CRT will do.


So, Digital Dudes, with your pixelated nightmare machines, where's your comeback? And PLEASE, only the ones that really stick. Not the 'imagined' ones.


------------------

goosystems.com


Ken Hotte

[email protected]
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,407 Posts
Ford!! Chevy!!


Which do you like best?!? It really doesn't matter what you think of my projector or what I think of yours!! I'm watching through my eyes and you stick with yours!!



Mike...

The proud owner of both a CRT and LCD projector!!! By the way, Stay off my lawn!!!!


------------------

Let's go out to the lobby.

Let's go out to the lobby.

To have ourselves a snack!

[email protected]
 

· Registered
Joined
·
106 Posts
Heh.. I know flamebait when I see it. Nonetheless, I'll reply with a couple of my own "opinions" =)


I've seen high end CRT's, I've seen high end DILA's. IMO, the DILA is superior in almost every aspect except black levels.


Picture quality and colors are as good or better on the DILA, resolution and lack of convergence problems on the DILA are far superior to anything except tippy-top of the line 9" CRTs that cost dozens of thousands of dollars. The DILA weighs a tenth of the CRTs, and is much more flexible in terms of mounting. Black on the DILA isn't as good as the CRT, but IMO the brightness of, say, a G15 more than makes up for the slightly higher absolute black level (which in my opinion is TOTALLY acceptable and "film-like".)


Personally, I don't see any reason to choose the CRT route over the DILA route. The CRT technology feels totally outdated to me in comparison to digital projectors in general. Convergence issues with CRT projectors are SUCH a headache; that alone is reason enough to shy away from those 100+ pound beasts.


A top of the line CRT and a top of the line DILA will both put out very very pretty pictures; both totally film-like in appearance and very immersive. I fundamentally do not agree with you that a top of the line CRT blows a calibrated DILA out of the water in the area of picture quality - they both produce stunning displays and the DILA is a much "simpler" solution overall (not to mention cheaper!) Last I checked, DILA bulbs went for around $800, about half of the re-tubing cost you quoted.


Seems like you're trying to incite another war, and I'm not interested in that. I did however feel it worthwhile to point out that to my eyes, a calibrated DILA system meets or exceeds the picture quality of top of the line CRTs.


paulb
 

· Registered
LG 55" C9 OLED, Yamaha RX-A660, Monoprice 5.1.2 Speakers, WMC HTPC, TiVo Bolt, X1
Joined
·
45,779 Posts
1100 lumens? No, not from an 8" CRT projector. It's more like 220 ANSI, compared to the much, much greater light output of solid state projectors.


Having said that, I prefer CRT projection for HDTV over any solid state, and I've seen them all, including the big gun 3-chip Christie, Barco & DPI DLP units and JVC D-ILA units.


Ok, so besides blinding light output, you still have to tweak a CRT on a regular basis, whereas a solid state projector needs little to no regular attention to perform at it's peak.


------------------

"better living thru modern expensive electronics"

tm
 

· Registered
Joined
·
2,407 Posts
Sorry it took a while to get back with you with a follow-up reply. I was playing a GREAT game of golf (links 2001) on my "non-burn" LCD unit. Hummm, I guess I could've let it sit still for more than 10 seconds and replied again....


FORE!!!!


Mike


------------------

Let's go out to the lobby.

Let's go out to the lobby.

To have ourselves a snack!

[email protected]


[This message has been edited by michaeldare (edited 05-09-2001).]
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,160 Posts
KBK,


Yeah, I can pull my engine out of my car and replace it for $800 too, but I wouldn't be gloating about the prospect.


If you have the enthusiasm and expertise to maintain a CRT FPTV, and swap out the tubes when necessary, then more power to ya!


I've got a 15' diagonal perforated screen, that I couldn't light up with any CRT FPTV under $25K, and if I have to pay $750 every couple years to swap out the bulb, so be it.

It shoud be less than a half hour job to do.


Each technology has it's own merits and shortcomings, so there is no absolute "winner", just the display that best suits your own particular expectations, needs, and budget.


-Dean.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
6,227 Posts
KBK, I am sure anyone who has hit middle age and decided they have got as far as they are likely to in life... dont see themselves moving house rapidly etc may be comfortable with a machine as portable as a sauna but...


A younger faster generation has arrived... I have moved house three times in the last four years and should emigrate to S E Asia within next 12 months... If eviction threatens (damn that sub !!) or the heavy hand of the authorities knock my HT is 'out the back door' under my arm... try that !!!!


I love the smell of napalm in the morning.... smells like... VICTORY !!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


------------------

[email protected]
HTPC without using windows... GUI Front Ends for Home Theater
 

· Registered
Joined
·
5,574 Posts
I remember my father telling me that early automobiles were no match for horsenbuggies; still, it was clear to people that the automobile would replace the horse.


New technology is almost always inferior to the technology it replaces at the moment of replacement. Still, it is clear that it will become better.


It may take several years but I think that digital projectors will be uniformly better than CRT's. Some may want to stay with CRT's until the bitter end, that's OK. Others will want to move forward.


I have moved.

 

· Registered
Joined
·
16,014 Posts



Comparing a horse and an automobile is not the

correct analogy. Comparing internal combustion

powered cars to electric cars would be more appropriate.

The electric car theoretically has all

the promise and potential to be a superior transportation

device in every way. But how many of us at this point

in time would choose one over an internal combustion

powered vehicle?


Like Dean and others I, too, bought both technologies.

I have a DILA projector and I have a Barco 808s CRT

projector.

The end result is that my DILA is now resting comfortably

on a closet shelf. Why? Because in my opinion the DILA

picture does not compare favorably to the 808s picture.


Others disagree and that's what makes horse races.


Bob Wood


------------------

~~The Sultan of Cheap~~


[This message has been edited by RobertWood (edited 05-09-2001).]
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,836 Posts
Quote:
The electric car theoretically has all

the promise and potential to be a superior transportation

device in every way. But how many of us at this point

in time would choose one over an internal combustion

powered vehicle?
I would love to buy any electric car. Do you know where I can buy one? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif I have read about some that can go 100 miles on 20KWHs. That would be about $1.40 at my utility rates. That's a lot cheaper then gas.


I have looked at lots of CRTs and I wound up buying a G20 D-ILA. If images get any better then what I am looking at now then I will never leave my house. Don't want that to happen.


Frank
 

· Registered
Joined
·
556 Posts
Ken,


My reasons for my purchase of a DILA over a CRT were:


1) I could buy a $100 Chief mounting bracket and hang the DILA upside down in my equipment room myself.


2) My equipment room could be fairly far back from my screen, allowing for a nice design of my HT. The longer throw on the DILA lens, and the variable focus meant that I could be "sloppy" on the design of the projector placement and compensate for this sloppiness with button pushes on the projector remote (zoom).


3) I had Dennis Erskine come in to calibrate the audio in my HT. When he was done, he was done. I do not have to have him calibrate the video, since the settings are available for the reading here on AVSFORUM.


4) I could marry a very cheap DVD scalar (an HTPC) the DILA and get very good PQ. So, a $2000 high end HTPC combined with a $10,000 projector got me to 95% of the result of a G90 + a Farroujda. So, I figure $12000 got me to within 95% of a $80,000 combination (I am not sure about the G90/Farroudja pricing so cut me some slack on it). Bottom line, I like the position on the price/performance curve of the DILA/HTPC.


5) I am in the computer industry. I am comfortable with things that are digital. The notion of something with tubes that requires visits by humans in white robes is something that I do not like.


6) I see cottage industries like Milori Software and Dilard springing up around DILA. The value of a technolgy is often measured by the quality of the third party support for it. On this basis, DILA beats CRT hands down.


7) I am not an ISF trained videophile, and do not aspire to be one. I am a consumer of HT products, and want to get maximum pleasure for minimum effort. DILA technology meets my needs in this respect far better than CRT.


8) CRT technology strikes me as the domain of old guard videophile snobs, while DILA strikes me as the choice of the new guard that seeks to overthrow the status quo. Being in the computer industry biases me towards being on the sides of the revolutionairies.


Cheers,


Bernd
 

· Registered
Joined
·
6,660 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Yeah, yer right. I was bored. I decided it was time to come over to the lamp forum and push some of the sleeping lamp cows over. Kick some 'o that lamp ass!


It also seemed like a good time to tell those that might be vacillating about what to purchase that a new thing has come down the pipeline.. something that most modern CRT owners always hoped for, but were afraid to dream of: Cheap Tubes!


It seems that the 8" MEC (panasonic)(Matshuita Electric Corporation) are now refurbishable! The dealer cost on these tubes hoovers around the $1150 mark each. The re-furb costs $400 each. Suddenly, a dead CRT unit (that was too expesive to retube) can be re-tubed at a VERY reasonable cost. So, the cost of entry into the CRT arena is even more reasonable.


There are MANY, MANY people out there who have been led to believe that CD's are better sounding than LP's. This has never been true. It is only at this time, with the introduction of SACD that the LP is finally eclipsed. 22 years after the introduction of the CD. This statement is emphatically technically supportable, on all fronts.


There is great reason to believe that the same situation will be taking place around the Digital projectors and their technology. The timeline will of course be different, but.. the CRT still has the lead in absolute quality. There are many, many people who will ABSOLUTELY NOT sacrifice 'belivability of image' for convienence's sake. They are not really aware that CRT's can now be had for considerably less than before, and at much less of a risk, due to the re-furb costs being lowered dramatically.


This is merely to inform them that CRT's still posess the most believable image on mid-sized screens. The technical hassles are much less than many people would have you believe.


Both types of projectors (crt/digital) inject the same amount of complexity into the owner's life, if they wish to pursue the UTMOST quality that their 'device of choice' will deliver. This is a given. Look at the DILA hassles, and the DLP hassles. The evidence is CLEAR. CRT is the same, and not any worse. Those who wish a hassle free set-up can achieve this with CRT as well. They just won't be pushing the envelope.


If one wishes to play with the items in question, there is no doubt that the CRT has the ability to go considerably further (than any other currently available technology) in creating a absolutely absorbing image.


The recent lowering of tube replacement pushes the CRT projector into an area where it did not occupy two weeks ago. The price of admission dropped practically overnight.


Soon, the price of refurbishing the big 9" MEC guns will drop as well, we hope. It will proabably happen soon. THEN the CRT will really be in demand. The value of dead 8" tubed CRT units with MEC tubes has changed. Before they where hard to get rid of, or could be quite cheap. Their e-bay price doubled almost overnight. And, the price of dead tube 9" units is creeping up in anticipation of the 9" tube being re-surfacable as well.


So, if the trend continues.... and it has barely even begun...we shall see if the digital technologies can keep pace. The start of a new technology is always slower than it is wanted to be, or anticipated. People get blinded in their desires, and the corporations are only too willing to help them along in this.


"BUY SOMETHING NEW", they say, "We sold you that old item already... we want more of your money.. yes, of course the new is better! We make a profit".


This is why I stuck with my lp's for 22 years, when I could have had an inferior sounding CD. You cannnot believe how badly CD's destroy the integrety of a sound. Most people won't. Their personal skills and capacities in the area of reaizing these facts blinds them to the fact that the LP IS actually better. What one cannot understand, they cannot believe. The SAME is true of the visual mechanism. One's personal capacities for self-realization and resolving skills should not impede the fact that CRT's STILL look considerably more lifelike than any other currently existing technology. Personal parts aside. In fact and reality. Not personal. Understand???? As far as personal capacities are concerned, don't step into a debate empty handed.


Was that meant to be mean? No not at all. I certianly have my limitations, as do we all. (one might say mine lies in lack of tact) I just have the common sense to realize that there are things I do not know of, and my 'opinion' does not matter. I even dislike the word 'opinion'. It is too judgemental a word. And, judgement is the highest order of a fool's game. Judgement locks you into a mental postion, and developmentally allows you to step no further, and anchors you in the lies of your own past. I try very hard to never express any thing like an opinion, only fact.


I apologize for the soapbox. It was merely my intent to inform people that might be fence sitters on purchasing a given technology, that CRT pricing has recently had a change for the better. It puts an entirely new perspective forward for those who pursue the ultimate image quality over any other 'restrictions' or considerations.


------------------

goosystems.com


Ken Hotte

[email protected]


[This message has been edited by KBK (edited 05-09-2001).]
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,731 Posts
KBK,

"I'm your huckleberry"

do you ever get your tongue out of your cheek. If I have to read one more story about your love affair with everything analog, I may have to jump...on you!!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif You must have been really bored to lower yourself to posting in the "lamp forum" as you call it.


Ok, enough. D-ILA's superiority:

600:1 contrast ratio with 20ft-lamberts of screen brightness on a screen bigger than a postage stamp in a device that is considerably smaller than a yugo, that has flexibility in mounting (including outside of the room, see Milori's installation), tweakable to your heart's content. And just think I have one of the most expensive white noise generators that produces enough heat to warm up a small room in the winter.



Yes I know you still have better black levels. Bludgeon us with that fact till we come to our senses.


One other pet peeve, please!!! Do not compare the cost of refurbished or junked CRT front PJs to new digital projectors. Most CRTs are not sold refurbished, but at a pretty penny by custom installers in both the home and business environment.


"1100 lumens". To be blunt this is a great marketing feature, but has little to do with the ANSI standard set for measuring projector brightness. When Don Stewart was asked about the peak output for CRT projectors, he called it "marketing lumens".


[tongue now removed from my cheek]


------------------

STOP HDCP on DVI

Don O




[This message has been edited by Don O'Brien (edited 05-09-2001).]
 

· Registered
Joined
·
217 Posts
KBK,


You and the rest of the analog elite can yelp until blue in the face. I used LPs for the first 22 years of my life, and the fact is that CDs sound better to me. I don't contend that CDs sound better than LPs period, but in my opinion your opinion doesn't establish fact.


I haven't seen an optimized DILA yet, but the best CRT set up is still the best picture I've experienced yet. I have no reason to believe that one day I will see a better digital projector than CRT. I do know that for the viewing environments of many, that digital projection works better.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
4,351 Posts
I agree. The bottom line IMO regarding CD vs LP is that Records tend to have a warm, euphonic quality (read: distorsion) that may appeal to some. However, CDs (even plain 16-bit, ignoring HDCD and SACD) are technically superior to LP by a large margin in frequency response, noise floor, and SNR.


Sorry, the LP vs CD arguement bores me.


Andy K.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
141 Posts
I wonder about the debates surrounding this topic sometimes and as time goes on I realize that my thoughts betray me. My first love is CRT all the way! Better grey scaling, 1600by1200 in some of the higher end crts like barco 1208etc. But as time passes Companies like vidikron and nec or infocus/proxima are pumping out DILA/DLP unit that compete very closely with the crt machines. If not better, This is troubling to me because I can`t let go, I currently have both a dlp and crt and right now the crt is much better. In all my discussions with other members of this forum We all agree that It is just a matter of time before crt market is replaced by the reselling of older DILA units. Of course that period of time is a ways a way, so party on with the crt units, really because its a matter of time.


I will always agree that the CRT`s are the kings, I figure that the level of resale of these machines will be far more in numbers than the DILA`s. My thoughts are that there is new and very promissing technology that is being produced every year to every month. At this rate there will be a totaly brand new technology manufacured at a real affordable rate that even resale will be undercut! Its a little drastic, I know but my thoughts betray me!
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top