[NateTTU]

Working quite a bit of overtime at work so I'm going to splurge on a new system which includes new subs. Wasn't planning on starting this until the spring of next year, but the current options I am considering is going up in price soon so it would be nice to go ahead and make up my mind and get the drivers ordered.


Basic Info:

Room Size

1600 Cubic Feet (sealed off)

Amp

EP2500

Budget

1,000 for drivers


Looking for 115dB from 15Hz and up.


I have talked with AE and I can get two AV15H drivers with 4 2500G passive radiators or 4 AV15H drivers and still get under budget. Will either of these options work or do I need to look at something else?


I'm leaning a bit more towards the PR version, but without ever hearing one before I don't know if I will like them or not. 4 sealed drivers is cool, but with so many subs I don't know how my receiver will utilize Audyssey to correct for any additional room problems. I think it can only do 2 at a time. Also I think the lower end output of the PRs might be quite a bit more.


Just looking for some input. Thanks.

 

[Mrkazador]

How big of an enclosure can you go?

 

[Scott Simonian]

You're doing good. You'll have to decide between sealed or PR as you cannot do both at the same time. Can't plug a PR.

Might want to consider how loud you want your bass to be and how much of a desire you have to reach down to 10hz and below before you come to a decision.


I'd say if you don't care about below 15hz stuff and want to rock the place with movies then go with the PR's. Otherwise I would recommend going sealed with two drivers per cab mounted in a dual opposed orientation. In your room, with a pair or two of these, maybe another EP and some form of lowend EQ/LT (ie Marchand Bassis) then you could easily reach down to 5hz in room.

 

[MKtheater]

You have a few options.


You can buy 4 of the AE drivers and build 2 dual opposed sealed subs and add EQ down low if needed. This should give you much more than 115 db's.


You can build a couple monster ported subs tuned to 14hz using 18 inch drivers.


You can buy the eD A7-650 kit


I would build the dual opposed AV15H subs and add EQ if needed myself. Actually you could buy a used Danley DTS-10 kit assembled and it will get you to 12hz and under in a small sealed room, I get 9hz in mine.

 

[FOH]

IB


$900 (4) IB3-18"(Fi)


Done


edit; being no expert on building sub enclosures, this is close to the extent of my diy sub advice, however, much can be learned from this DIY section, so I hang here often.


(I have become an expert reading about others building sub enclosures

 

[NateTTU]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador /forum/post/19503421


How big of an enclosure can you go?

Smaller the better, but I guess it depends on how big they are as where I could place them around the room. I was thinking PRs would be 24x24x24 and sealed would be 20x20x20. Didn't really think to much about dual opposed.


Overall footprint is really the key, smaller the better and I could easily go up to achieve the desired volume, but I would say anything above 30'' would not be prefered. If I could somehow work the PR design into a 20x20x30 box that would work as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian /forum/post/19503449


You're doing good. You'll have to decide between sealed or PR as you cannot do both at the same time. Can't plug a PR.

Might want to consider how loud you want your bass to be and how much of a desire you have to reach down to 10hz and below before you come to a decision.


I'd say if you don't care about below 15hz stuff and want to rock the place with movies then go with the PR's. Otherwise I would recommend going sealed with two drivers per cab mounted in a dual opposed orientation. In your room, with a pair or two of these, maybe another EP and some form of lowend EQ/LT (ie Marchand Bassis) then you could easily reach down to 5hz in room.

15Hz is what I want, but if I can go lower then it something I will seriously consider. I could pick up another amp and some for an EQ/LT, but that is going to raise the cost. Depending on how much may/may not be an issue. Just for kicks say I did do this option, what would the box size have to be and how much additional cost do you think?

 

[NateTTU]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater /forum/post/19503486


You have a few options.


You can buy 4 of the AE drivers and build 2 dual opposed sealed subs and add EQ down low if needed. This should give you much more than 115 db's.


You can build a couple monster ported subs tuned to 14hz using 18 inch drivers.


You can buy the eD A7-650 kit


I would build the dual opposed AV15H subs and add EQ if needed myself. Actually you could buy a used Danley DTS-10 kit assembled and it will get you to 12hz and under in a small sealed room, I get 9hz in mine.

Not too familiar with the Danely or eD subs, but from what little I know they seem too large for my room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH /forum/post/19503578


IB


$900 (4) IB3-18"(Fi)


Done

IB is not an option for me at this time... if the wife has anything to say about it doubt it will ever be really.

 

[Eternal Velocity]

I`m guessing an LLT tuned to 13.5 hz isn`t an option either?


Cuz I'm thinking two of these


Would be amazing off of a single EP2500 even. Would definitely hit reference levels cleanly and have a small footprint, and an 8.3" sono-port would be a lot cheaper than passive radiators.

Quote:
with so many subs I don't know how my receiver will utilize Audyssey to correct for any additional room problems.

Done properly, four separate subwoofers will give you the flattest bass response at every seating position. You may need to phase align and kill any major peaks with a behringer feedback destroyer, but four subs is always the way to go if it's an option. It'll beat two in room sound quality at every seating position. I recommend it. Four sealed SDX-15 mk IIs maybe?

 

[audiovideoholic]

Does the $1000 include the materials for building the enclosures?


I would do the two dual 15's or just two larger woofers. The two larger sealed woofers may run a little over budget unless holiday sales play a role.


I have sealed 21's that measure 24x24x24 external.

 

[kryptonitewhite]

I wish somebody some day would have the nuts to do an LLT with a 21" Maelstrom-X


25 cubic feet, 16Hz tune, 10" port or 12" port, 2500 watts, 10Hz HP for electronics roll off and another 10Hz HP cuz EP4000 just falls hard below 10Hz, or if you included your own. 10" port only shows 28m/s at 16Hz, but I get a lotta air from my 12" with an IB3 18.

 

[michael hurd]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian /forum/post/19503449


You'll have to decide between sealed or PR as you cannot do both at the same time. Can't plug a PR.

Sure you can.... make a pair of plugs like such: Drill them with the mounting pattern and you can swap out the PR's for plugs to make a sealed box in a few moments.


I built these with a circle jig and a router, and they sit flush in the recess for the woofer. Paint to match enclosure if desired.


EDIT: while you can't do sealed and PR at the same time, you can use either in the same box, provided the volume is close to optimum for either mode.


Sealed with waterbased urethane and sanded :

Primed with 2K urethane automotive primer:

With the help of a cordless drill and screwdriver bit, to swap from PR mode to sealed mode is about 8 minutes.

 

[gperkins1973]



Quote:
Four sealed SDX-15 mk IIs maybe?

With these possible specs, 34mm excursion and 1500 watts four off these with would be great but you will be looking at more than $1000 for 4 drivers as I reckon they will be dearer than the AE15's.


They sound like they will be great drivers.


for me running 2 dual AE15's sealed will defo need an EP2500 for each sub briged into 4 ohms.


1600 cu ft is not a big room at all so duals whether ported or sealed will be more than enough.


4 single sealed subs will give the best response but won't gain that much in spl over one or two.


With only one EP2500 I reckon 2 ported subs will give you more output with less power.


cheers


Graham

 

[NateTTU]



Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic /forum/post/19504060


Does the $1000 include the materials for building the enclosures?


I would do the two dual 15's or just two larger woofers. The two larger sealed woofers may run a little over budget unless holiday sales play a role.


I have sealed 21's that measure 24x24x24 external.

1k is for drivers only. The enclosure/material costs will be extra and I'm ok with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity /forum/post/19504020


I`m guessing an LLT tuned to 13.5 hz isn`t an option either?


Cuz I'm thinking two of these


Would be amazing off of a single EP2500 even. Would definitely hit reference levels cleanly and have a small footprint, and an 8.3" sono-port would be a lot cheaper than passive radiators.




Done properly, four separate subwoofers will give you the flattest bass response at every seating position. You may need to phase align and kill any major peaks with a behringer feedback destroyer, but four subs is always the way to go if it's an option. It'll beat two in room sound quality at every seating position. I recommend it. Four sealed SDX-15 mk IIs maybe?

I'm not a fan of the missle silos, but how much volume are we talking about to get it that low? If I can design an enclosure that wouldn't look too bad I could go ported. Never had a big ported sub either, but it certainly is a lot less expensive than PRs which is another thing I have never tried before.

 

[kryptonitewhite]

How about Mach 5 Audio IXL 18's, Sound Splinter RL-p 18's, Exodus Audio Maelstrom-X 18's, or find some used Ascendant Audio Avalanches. Fi Q 18's. AA Mayhem or Havoc.

 

[Eternal Velocity]



Quote:
Originally Posted by NateTTU /forum/post/19505316


1k is for drivers only. The enclosure/material costs will be extra and I'm ok with that.




I'm not a fan of the missle silos, but how much volume are we talking about to get it that low? If I can design an enclosure that wouldn't look too bad I could go ported. Never had a big ported sub either, but it certainly is a lot less expensive than PRs which is another thing I have never tried before.

Depends on the driver. The driver in turn gives you the general transfer function curve, sound quality, and max SPL to work with. First you have to choose between a 15, 18, and a 21 LOL!


For example


Maelstrom-X 21" tuned to 12.5hz - 970L

Maelstrom-X 18" tuned to ~13.5hz - 490L

Tempest-X2 tuned to ~ 15.5hz - 365 L


Now designing a regular box isn't a bad idea, but it can get heavy, very quick. The sonosubs are a lot lighter.


I'm just guessing, but your best bet for a small-box LLT driver is probably the TC Sounds LMS-R 15" but I don't know. I could model it for you.


Personally, I love the idea of LLTs... nice SQ, relatively flat frequency response in a large room, and plenty of output. I wouldn't even consider a ported or passive radiator sub if it's not an extended bass shelf personally. At those low tunings, most people don't even bother with high pass filters on ported builds, although i personally would.


TC Sounds LMS-R 15" in 280L tuned to 15.5 hz would work, I just modeled it.


You would still need a 51" x 8" diameter port though. I would recommend a crossover to your mains at 60hz preferably, as the first port resonance pops in at 132hz, which could possibly (not necessarily) be audible with an 80hz crossover. Alternatively, you could go with a 14" x 3.5" x 49.5" slot port. It would still have a 1st port resonance at 136hz or so, but it's a lot more practical in a non-sono-build, as you can fold the port a bit around the box.


You could go with a smaller, shorter port to get the same tuning, on the condition that you really do make multiple subs and don't push any of them too hard. This would keep air velocity down.

 

[Eternal Velocity]



Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite /forum/post/19504416


I wish somebody some day would have the nuts to do an LLT with a 21" Maelstrom-X

A 16hz tuning is too high for a Mal-X 21"! That box just isn't big enough!


Try modeling it 35 cu ft, a 11.7" (12-) sonotube vent 40 inches long for a ~13HZ tuning.


port resonance at 168hz, which is perfectly fine IMO, especially with a 60hz crossover frequency to your mains, which IMO anyone crazy enough to do it should have!

 

[kryptonitewhite]

I started off with 35 cubes, jumped to 45 quick, then tried to squeeze 25 lol. Was in a hurry. I almost bought 6 of them with 14 Anarchy's but it didnt work out. Two 21's for the towers and four for the van.

 

[Hrimnir]

Well, just for my 2cents contribution, i was wondering if picking up Tempest-X2 15" instead of the AV15H's would be worth the extra $85 per sub for OP's situation.


Basically i would say the answer is yes, if he is willing to put them in a larger box.


Basically i modelled the AV15H's with 2x drivers in a 6ft^3 box, vs the Exodus subs in a 9ft^3 box.


Here is the graph, looks like about a 3db gain at 20hz, and 2db gain at 10hz.

 

[LTD02]

what is not shown in these types of models is the result of inductance.


low and linear inductance are better.

 

[NateTTU]

Thanks for the input thus far. There is obviously more than one way to reach my goal based upon the suggestions in this thread. To help narrow things down a bit, how about I go ahead and say that I will stick with AE for my current subwoofer needs. Nothing against the other manufactures, but the guy who is designing my new speakers thinks pretty highly of them and has used them before. I've been very pleased with his designs thus far so I see no reason not to go with his suggestion here as well. There are definately other options, but at least for now if I have a driver specified then we can concentrate efforts more on enclosure design and how many I will need to reach my goals.


How big of an enclosure would I need to create a LLT for either the AV15-H/X? If I have a volume I can design something up and see if it will fit in the room.