AVS Forum banner
1 - 20 of 78 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,088 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've never really looked into this forum...and now that I have, I am very interested to find a good design for me to implement in my smallish basement theater.


I certainly have no need for a center channel as I am always within the screen...plus, I have always felt that no center channel allows a much better soundstage...especially in a small theater room.


So...I'm thinking 2 full range speakers, but I don't want them to be too deep, and I'm interested if there are any designs that do well in corners?


Ugliness is not an issue...they can be the weirdest looking speakers anyone has ever seen...in fact, that might make me even prouder!!



Currently have B&W 601 series 3 with no subwoofer...and it sounds good..but I know a great DIY speaker will sound even better!


Any suggestions for me?


Budget would not be huge, but I would also build the cabinets myself as I am an aspiring woodworker. Hope this thread isn't too big and rambly...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,405 Posts
Try Pispeakers cornerhorns...designed to go into corners, and with several price points...


Or the Murphy Corner Line Array (MCLA).


JSS
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,957 Posts
You didn't state a budget, but I would look into 4Pi speakers with the DE250 and 2226H upgrades. They can be built into the corners and the designer likes them that way. They will also work well up against the wall.


If your budget is slightly bigger, and your room suits it, you could also do the 7pi cornerhorns. These are a 3-way horn design that tuck into the corners of your room. You need to have a symmetrical room with 90deg corners in the front. The design uses the room walls to extend directivity. It is Pi Speakers top of the line. The construction is a bit more involved since you have to build the midhorn but if you are an aspiring woodworker you should have no issues.


Here is a 7pi build: http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread...ner-Horn-Build


7Pi - http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r...ytimbarnes.jpg


You can go to Pi Speakers forum and ask for plans which Wayne gives out for free. He can also supply built crossovers and I believe a flatpack for the midhorn. Wayne provides support and answers questions on his forum.


This is not a bargain basement DIY project, but IMO, it is at the DIY sweetspot. You might spend $1000-1500 on it, but it will perform with speakers far more expensive.


So what is your budget and what is your room shape with dimensions? A simple layout pic would help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,088 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
indeed, I should have specified the budget paramaters....i would say 1500 is pretty far out of my league. What about the 500-700 dollar range?


Also, what is the biggest part of the expense? Is it simply the drivers? Or is box construction also expensive?


Remember, I don't care if they're not the prettiest things...basement theater.


One other question...wouldn't horns not be the best choice if I'm going with no center speaker? I thought they were a lot more directive and therefore perhaps not as good at creating a nice, seamless soundstage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,405 Posts
Not as much output, but the 8pi is less expensive. $300 for each kit, the compression driver is upgradeable for $75 each...you have to supply wood.


The cornerhorns are made to fit into corners and use the corners to provide a wide 2-channel soundstage.


JSS
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,957 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno /forum/post/20802198


indeed, I should have specified the budget paramaters....i would say 1500 is pretty far out of my league. What about the 500-700 dollar range?


Also, what is the biggest part of the expense? Is it simply the drivers? Or is box construction also expensive?


Remember, I don't care if they're not the prettiest things...basement theater.


One other question...wouldn't horns not be the best choice if I'm going with no center speaker? I thought they were a lot more directive and therefore perhaps not as good at creating a nice, seamless soundstage.

$700 total for 2 speakers including most things (drivers, crossovers, simple boxes, misc parts) but not including choice of finish (paint, stain veneer etc), is too low for the pi speakers. That definitely won't get you in the pi speakers. The JBL woofer is $330 and the CD is $130. The crossover is ~$90 if you build it yourself and the horn is $45. It won't take much wood, maybe 1-2 sheets.


You would be better served by the Econowave Delite: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...07#post1637407


It is a simpler crossover so it is cheaper and the woofer is much cheaper although it has gone up in $100 price since that post and the waveguide is up $20 too. Without the cabinet, I think you would be looking at about $425/speaker before wood and paint/veneer. It is probably ~$150-200 cheaper than the 4pi per speaker, but the woofer is not in the same league. You might contact Erich H, I think he can get you a better deal on the Eminence 2512 woofers, but I don't know about getting them to Canada.


I'd build them into the corners as tightly as possible and calculate the volume and box tuning to determine your box height.


I agree that horns will be your best bet, but horns tend to cost more and there are fewer DIY designs.


The cost of wood for mains is generally not huge because they are smaller than subs. It can get expensive if you want them to look like B&W's though. If you don't care about looks, the MDF might cost you $50-75. Just put some primer and roll on paint.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,411 Posts
the stock 4pi kit is only $400.


if you don't want to assemble your x-overs, and scouring the the web for box sizes, port tuning, etc for the various econowave designs; i would highly suggest the 4pi kit. it has everything you need.


all you got to do is build the box, per wayne's plan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,995 Posts
Sorry OP, you left FAR to much information out of your post for anyone to make an informative, responsible recommendation.


Room size?

Open concept or closed space

Screen size?

Listening distance?

Listening levels?

Preferred content....music,movies, both?

Available source devices and amplification

Budget

Available positions for mounting/positioning

Low frequency content reproductions...are there any subs already?

Budget...oooops said that already


You get the idea. If you really want HELP, this is the kind of info you need to post. otherwise your going to get he usually volley of speaker A/variant B of the X generation vs Horn loaded C with super high inductance woofers and ............In other words no help at all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,535 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno /forum/post/20801207


Ugliness is not an issue...they can be the weirdest looking speakers anyone has ever seen...in fact, that might make me even prouder!!

Yeah, I know. Are you still running a fugly old CRT projector too?



How loud do you need your speakers to get? Are you the kind of guy who listens to movies & music at or below reference volumes?


How many feet back from the speakers is your listening position?


And most importantly, what are you running for a subwoofer setup?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,088 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have no sub...and would likely prefer it that way. I think 2 full range mains would satisfy my bass needs.


As for amplification, I would be interested to hear the recommendations. I am thinking 2 channel is all I really need, am I crazy? It seems that in this room, surrounds are unnecessary.


The room is approximately 18 x 11...I project onto the 11 ft wall, about 80 or 90 inches wide (I haven't decided yet).


I'm not a bass head..I like a tight and fast bass..I do not like boom.


Also, it would be 100% movies...


is the underlying message with the DIY crowd to make very highly efficient speakers? If so, what amps are recommended?


I would note to you...one of the absolute best sounding home theater setups I ever heard was a B&W thx setup with dual passive subs in massive enclosures under the front L & R speakers with identical center speaker (minus the sub). I heard a laserdisc through it (I still think many LD tracks are also the best I've heard!). Am I stuck in the past?



It seems that in many of my experiments, a center speaker is unnecessary and makes the soundstage smaller. Although, if I were to go with a center speaker, I would insist it be identical to the mains..


Thanks for all your initial feedback....


Crt is being retired...I bought a Samsung 710 off ebay for 162 bucks shipped...and it's flat out amazing! As you can see, I love audio and video as a hobby, and I really love doing it on the cheap. My screen is a painted goo screen, for instance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,088 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I would listen in and around reference level...likely lower.


I tend to sit near the back wall which is why I'm not overly concerned with surround speakers.


I could mount the speakers any way I wish, but definitely like the idea of a wedge shape that sounds good in a corner...forcing good toe in and not being too obvious around the screen. If not a wedge then a large, and yet not deep speaker that sounds good near the wall.
 

·
Blues In Thirds
Joined
·
2,522 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno /forum/post/20805580


I have no sub...and would likely prefer it that way. I think 2 full range mains would satisfy my bass needs.


As for amplification, I would be interested to hear the recommendations. I am thinking 2 channel is all I really need, am I crazy? It seems that in this room, surrounds are unnecessary.


The room is approximately 18 x 11...I project onto the 11 ft wall, about 80 or 90 inches wide (I haven't decided yet).


I'm not a bass head..I like a tight and fast bass..I do not like boom.


Also, it would be 100% movies...


is the underlying message with the DIY crowd to make very highly efficient speakers? If so, what amps are recommended?


I would note to you...one of the absolute best sounding home theater setups I ever heard was a B&W thx setup with dual passive subs in massive enclosures under the front L & R speakers with identical center speaker (minus the sub). I heard a laserdisc through it (I still think many LD tracks are also the best I've heard!). Am I stuck in the past?



It seems that in many of my experiments, a center speaker is unnecessary and makes the soundstage smaller. Although, if I were to go with a center speaker, I would insist it be identical to the mains..


Thanks for all your initial feedback....


Crt is being retired...I bought a Samsung 710 off ebay for 162 bucks shipped...and it's flat out amazing! As you can see, I love audio and video as a hobby, and I really love doing it on the cheap. My screen is a painted goo screen, for instance.

Boy....you sure sound like an audiophile that just happens to like HT. Since you're thinking that a two channel system would suit your needs, I would go on A'gon and find a nice tube amp. The dynamics would work to your favor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,088 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I'm actually a videophile first and foremost...and I like audio done right. I see no point to surrounds in a room where they are easily localized and too close to my ears.


I see no point to a center speaker that is horizontal...this is clearly done to appeal to esthetics and not sound quality. Speakers are vertical because that it is how they sound their best...therefore the only acceptable center speaker is one that is 100% identical to the mains. And that also means vertical orientation.


And....in a room as small as mine, with 1 or 2 listeners (maybe 4 when the girlfriends kids are over, but they could care less), I see no need for a center speaker above or below an image when the 2 main speakers anchor the voice right in front of the screen instead of above or below it.


Tube amps will be of what benfit exactly?


I play guitar and prefer a tube amp...but how will a movie sound different through a tube amp?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,345 Posts
"I see no need for a center speaker above or below an image when the 2 main speakers anchor the voice right in front of the screen instead of above or below it."


you are not alone in there.


i wonder if a build around the jbl 2235 might be something that would interest you. they are monster bass units with decent mids.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1203273

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,365 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by javry /forum/post/20805595


Boy....you sure sound like an audiophile that just happens to like HT. Since you're thinking that a two channel system would suit your needs, I would go on A'gon and find a nice tube amp. The dynamics would work to your favor.

Really bad advice - pay a massive premium to get less power and worse sound. Dynamics will be worse with this set up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,405 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by benareeno /forum/post/20805687


I'm actually a videophile first and foremost...and I like audio done right. I see no point to surrounds in a room where they are easily localized and too close to my ears.


I see no point to a center speaker that is horizontal...this is clearly done to appeal to esthetics and not sound quality. Speakers are vertical because that it is how they sound their best...therefore the only acceptable center speaker is one that is 100% identical to the mains. And that also means vertical orientation.


And....in a room as small as mine, with 1 or 2 listeners (maybe 4 when the girlfriends kids are over, but they could care less), I see no need for a center speaker above or below an image when the 2 main speakers anchor the voice right in front of the screen instead of above or below it.


Tube amps will be of what benfit exactly?


I play guitar and prefer a tube amp...but how will a movie sound different through a tube amp?

Well, it seems like you have your mind made up already.


2 Channel, full range.


Of course, movies are mixed in 5.1 or more channels nowadays for a reason.


You are willing to sacrifice the bottom few octaves below 35-40Hz, and the advantages of a center channel done properly, as well as surrounds.


If you were amenable to room changes, such as moving your listening position off the back wall, you might change your mind about surrounds.


Do you have measurement capability? That would be the SINGLE BEST THING you could ever do. Measure what you have to see what you would want. You will realize quickly that the amount of comb filtering experienced at rear wall seats is quite high unless absorption is placed there. The bass response may not be what you think it is either.


Listening at reference will require efficient speakers. 95dB+. And around 100-200W power. Your choices become limited.


Also, subwoofers done right do not boom. "Fast bass" vs "boom" is usually determined almost exclusively by the room, room resonances and modal ringing. This is why you need to measure, or just run highpass filters to ensure the room does not contribute.


The number one determinant will always be budget. Given the $700 number, I think that severely limits your options as well.


I still stick to my initial recommendation of the 8pi loudpspeaker if you will want 2-channel.



http://www.pispeakers.com/catalog/pr...roducts_id/112


The kits are $300 per speaker. It is tuned to 35Hz, and should be run with a highpass if you will run it near it's limits, as movies contain content below 35Hz. It will reach 120dB with corner loading with only 100W (whih I assume you have 100W per channel available), getting you very near reference. If you feel the need for clearer highs, there is an upgrade high frequency driver available.


Even with the 8pi speakers, it would be to your adavntage to move the listening position off the rear wall.


The other options are limited to other high efficiency speakers such as line arrays with subwoofers to augment the low end...or Klipschorn-type clones.


You have painted yourself into quite a narrow corner as far as options due to room layout and preferences.


But I still say #1 is get measurement equipment together and measure what you have, and then decide what you need.


Look up Room EQ Wizard on google. Free software. You can build a mic for very litle cash by searching for the "lilmike's mic" thread here on AVS. You can use a $30 sound card, and get a better idea of what is really going on in your room.


You are decently satisfied with bookshelf speakers currently. The 8Pi's would be a big step up for not a whole lot of $$.


JSS
 

·
RETIRED theater builder
Joined
·
36,382 Posts
Just another data point on the Pi speaker line. I built 3 4Pi's for my LCR. The day I got them finished I set them on my stage in front of my screen wall and gave a listen. One test I did was to select stereo on my receiver and listened to some music. I actually got out of my chair twice and put my ear to the center channel because I couldn't believe the perceived strong center stage anchored sounds were coming from just the L/R.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,411 Posts
so BIG, if you knew what you know now. would you build only 2x 4pi for your front stage instead of 3x?


i am trying to put together a budget for 3x 4pi, but i don't have an AT screen so positioning the center speaker in front of the screen will be very difficult.


do you think i'd be ok with just 2x 4pi for the front?
 
1 - 20 of 78 Posts
Top