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Do you feel that the 2009 HDTV Shootout was conducted as fair as possible?

  • I feel the shootout was conducted completely fair and all displays were on a level playing field

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  • Intent was to be fair; whether or not they accomplished goal is entirely subjective

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  • Intent was to be fair; honest mistakes were made by some who participated, not affecting outcome

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  • Intent was to be fair; honest mistakes made by all who participated, did not affect outcome

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Intent was to be fair; honest mistakes made by some/all which negatively affected outcome

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Intent of most organizers to be fair, but perhaps one individual involved was deliberately biased

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • All of the organizers were deliberately biased, and never intended for the shootout to be fair

    Votes: 0 0.0%
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If you listen to part 1 of the Kevin Miller presentation on You Tube, starting shortly before 90 secs into the clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJtn3rz7seQ


You can hear Kevin Miller speaking of how all the displays were set up fairly and put on a level playing field, with their black levels set correctly, and then approx. 100 seconds into the clip, he goes on to mention that the peak light output of the displays in night mode were all set to 35 fL. However, at this point, D-Nice can be heard interjecting "when possible". Kevin Miller then confirms that there was "an exception" to this with one panel, and he seemed to be trying to be polite and not mention the Panasonic by name, but when examining the calibration reports, it's obvious that they were referring to the V10 in THX mode, which was only calibrated to output a dim 25 fL. All the rest of the displays were close to the 35 fL target.


So the question is this. If all the displays during the shootout were calibrated to deliver 34-35 fL, but the Panny V10 was the only one at a dim 25 fL, it seems only logical that the Panasonic would not look as good or have as much "pop" as the other displays, since people are naturally drawn to the brighter looking display.


Does this seem fair? Likely the dimmer light output of the V10 hurt the Panasonic in comparison to the brighter Samsung and Pioneer in the subjective audience ratings.


AVS forum member and ISF calibrator Chad B. calibrated and reviewed both the V10 and the G10, and his reports show 30 fL for the V10 out of the box in THX mode. I'm not sure what kind of window pattern he used, since CNET measured 25.75 fL in THX mode--almost identical to the panel D-Nice calibrated.


Chad B. felt he could get more out of the V10 by not sticking with THX mode, and calibrated custom instead.


Here are his words:


"Because of the low light output/high gamma of Studio Reference and color decoding/light output issues with THX mode, I decided to concentrate my efforts on Custom mode. Custom opens up the Pro Setting submenu, which contains panel brightness, gamma, AGC, contour emphasis, black extension, and fine white balance adjustments."


Now, let's examine the relevant passages from the CNET review of the V10:
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...?tag=mncol;lst


"The V10 models also offer THX Display Certification. When you engage THX picture mode, the V10's color accuracy, shadow detail, and numerous other picture characteristics improve significantly without you having to make a bunch of adjustments. THX comes close to a "one-step calibration," but in the V10's case it's not as effective as using the Custom mode and Pro adjust settings."


and...


"Setting up the TC-PV10 for optimal picture quality presented us a somewhat difficult choice: to THX or not to THX? As we noted on the G10 review, THX mode delivers more accurate primary colors than the company's other settings, along with very good gamma and grayscale performance. The downside of THX is a slightly dimmer image (25.75 ftl) and some color decoding issues that bring a greenish cast to the image. With our V10 review sample we actually saw worse picture quality in THX mode than we saw on the G10. For whatever reason the grayscale was quite a bit less accurate and too blue (we measured an average variation of 441K, as opposed to the 150K variation on the G10), and the primary color of red was also a good deal worse.

For those reasons, and also because the V10 allows significantly more picture adjustments than the G10, we decided to use the Custom mode, adjusted with our standard user-menu calibration, for our evaluation instead of THX. It delivered our preferred light output of 40ftl, accurate gamma (2.26 versus an ideal of 2.2--the same as we measured in THX and much better than Custom on the G10, which hit 1.86) and solid grayscale performance (which again surpassed the G10's overly blue Custom, thanks to the Pro adjust settings). Compared to THX, Custom on the V10 evinced less accurate green, yellow, and cyan colors and more accurate red and magenta (the color temperature and primary color numbers in the Geek Box are for THX, however, since it was still the most accurate preset overall before calibration). In case you're curious, we did measure the DCC mode and found it, as expected, highly inaccurate by HDTV color space standards, so we left it turned off for our evaluation."



Chad B. and CNET decided that custom mode offered them better flexibility in maximizing the potential of the V10 display.


D-Nice (along with Kevin Miller?) apparently disagreed, sticking with the quite dim THX mode. But this put the Panasonic at a clear disadvantage next to the brighter displays. At 110 seconds into part 2 of the Kevin Miller presentation, we can hear D-Nice explaining that the Panasonic is operating in THX mode.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm0sBSje3SM


Later on, D-Nice also informs the audience (only after I pestered the moderator in the live feed chat room several times to ask) that the Blur/Judder settings on the Samsung B8000 Luxia were 5/5, when most Luxia owners and reviewers advise putting the judder at 0.


I feel obligated to point out these facts which may have skewed the shootout partially against these two particular displays, and I would welcome D-Nice's explanation for why he did not choose to calibrate custom mode for 35 fL, and for Kevin Miller or whoever calibrated the B8000 Luxia to explain why they settled on the custom blur/judder settings of 5/5. Most people choose 8-10 for blur and judder on 0. CNET chose 10 for blur and 0 for judder.


I am not familiar enough with the other LED backlit sets which have just come on the market, to know if they were set up to maximize their full potential or not.


I apologize in advance if I have misinterpreted any of the calibration reports or have jumped to any false conclusions. I admit to being a total novice when it comes to understanding everything that goes into calibrating a display. I just want all the facts on the table, so everyone has enough information to make a judgment about how fairly the shootout was arranged.


I am trying to make a poll, where people can vote whether or not they think the shootout was conducted as fair as possible, but I'm not sure exactly how to accomplish this.
 

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I don't think you listened correctly. They made it very clear that the Panasonic in THX mode did not allow the peak light output as custome, but offered greater color accuracy, gamma, and overall chromaticity, which when you think about would make sense to sacrifice a little light output for a better overall calibration.


So, it was more than fair.


As far as D and Kevin disagreeing with C-net and ChadB, just look at the calibration reports, they speak for themselves.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker /forum/post/16945413


I admit to being a total novice when it comes to understanding everything that goes into calibrating a display.

Yet you make a poll insinuating that several well respected forum members and calibrators that obviously DO understand what they are doing, have not done it properly, or worse, have done it unfairly intentionally?
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Well D-Nice is fully welcome to explain to us why he made the trade-offs that he did, keeping the Panny in a quite dim THX mode. He may very well have had valid reasons for doing so. I am not a calibrator and I did not have access to the V10 as he did. People should still be aware that the path he chose resulted in a much dimmer panel than all the rest for the contest.


I feel it would have been better, and more transparent, if all this was explained to the audience up-front during the shootout. It would have been preferable if D-Nice explained to the audience that he felt he could get a more accurate picture by staying with THX mode, even if it resulted in a much dimmer picture than all the rest of the panels.


I just felt the need to point out that the Panasonic V10 was considerably dimmer than all the rest of the displays during the shootout, and that it probably hurt it in the subjective audience voting.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodeoclown /forum/post/16945581


Yet you make a poll insinuating that several well respected forum members and calibrators that obviously DO understand what they are doing, have not done it properly, or worse, have done it unfairly intentionally?

I know you are a Sammy owner and fanboy rodeoclown, and don't like my posts on the Samsung threads, and hence are looking to take any shot you can get at me, both on this thread and on others, but I don't see what the problem is with the poll? The very first choice you can make is to vote that the shootout was conducted totally fair and all displays were on a level playing field. The last choice at the bottom is for people who feel that there was some sort of deliberate bias involved. There are a whole range of choices in between.


If you think everything was conducted totally impartial and every display was set up to the absolute maximum of its potential, vote accordingly!


I sincerely believe the blur/judder settings of 5/5 on the Luxia were far less than optimal, and so I already firmly believe that some mistakes were made by the "pros", not becase I don't feel they are professional or sincere, but because I honestly do not think they were given enough time to familiarize themselves with some of the complicated settings on all these brand new panels that have just come out.


One can be a professional and a very talented and skilled calibrator, but if he has not done enough homework, and has not thoroughly familiarized himself with the displays he is working with, it is to no avail.


I have no doubt the Pioneer was calibrated to its maximum potential.
 

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I have no doubt the Pioneer was calibrated to its maximum potential.



or most would say THE standard of excellence.
It's all fair in tech and spec.
 

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Since you are the only one that voted the outcome was negative due to mistakes made, do you think the results would have been different if the Panasonic V10 was brighter? All it's other flaws would have still been prevalent or worse if custom isn't as accurate as THX. As for the Samsung, 10/0 is a setting that CNet prefers but it doesn't mean it's the best one. When I had a B750, I found 10/5 worked best. The setting they used was fine.
 

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The people at the shootout doing the explaining and presenting did an excellent job. Keep in mind that this was not a scientific evaluation in a controlled atmosphere where all things are equal.

This was a COMPARISON intended to show the GOOD & BAD of all the TV's and give the audience an understanding and real life opportunity to see the differences as well as the Pros and cons.

Be appreciative that the shootout took place rather than criticizing and trying to find fault.


For those that think it wasn't 100% let us know where you can find a comparison that is better.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5150Joker /forum/post/16945856


Since you are the only one that voted the outcome was negative due to mistakes made, do you think the results would have been different if the Panasonic V10 was brighter? All it's other flaws would have still been prevalent or worse if custom isn't as accurate as THX. As for the Samsung, 10/0 is a setting that CNet prefers but it doesn't mean it's the best one. When I had a B750, I found 10/5 worked best. The setting they used was fine.

In the calibrators eyes, maybe not, but to the audience, I think it would have scored higher in Peak White and General Content Video Quality, and possibly even Moving Resolution. Color accuracy might have taken a hit, although I doubt by much (if any). Overall, I think more would have preferred Custom mode.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I think the folks who ran the shootout did a good job of presenting and explaining what all the test patterns and signals were designed to reveal. I think they did a relatively poor job of explaining to the audience how each of the displays themselves were setup.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5150Joker /forum/post/16945856


Since you are the only one that voted the outcome was negative due to mistakes made, do you think the results would have been different if the Panasonic V10 was brighter?

Well, let's not jump to any early conclusions. The poll has only been open a few hours. We've even got one vote for deliberate bias. Yes, I think the results may have been different, especially after reading impressions like this one:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post16753196


"Second, I think it is clear that the pioneer is the best panel out there, it's just a question of how much better you think it is and how much that difference is worth to you. Now, obviously that doesn't make other panels crap or unworthy of ownership. Both the Pioneer and the Samsung panels stood out to me out of the group. I was surprised by this myself as I wasn't expecting samsung's plasma to be 2nd best, since I had read so much about the new Panasonics being so good. Samsung definitely fared worse than panasonic on the black level test, but on overall picture quality when viewing actual content (including dark knight blu ray) it was better than the Panasonic (the image just seems more lifelike than the panasonic). I have to say it was remarkable how good the samsung looked with content, considering that it's black levels were not that great in the black level test, relatively speaking. With content the black levels looked good."


The Pioneer and the Samsung stood out to him, likely because they were much brighter. According to him, the image seemed "more lifelike" on the Samsung than on the Panasonic. It ought to have considering how much brighter it was. You can get more than enough "pop" and "lifelike" images on the V10 if you are not at an overly dim 25 ftL THX mode flanked by displays at 35 ftL!


Quote:
All it's other flaws would have still been prevalent or worse if custom isn't as accurate as THX. As for the Samsung, 10/0 is a setting that CNet prefers but it doesn't mean it's the best one. When I had a B750, I found 10/5 worked best. The setting they used was fine.

Sure, and on your B750 you said you liked to run dynamic mode with a backlight of 9 and contrast in the high 90's, isn't that right?
I think I'll stick with CNET, who conducted a battery of motion resolution tests to come up with their preferred settings.
 

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This is one of the funniest threads I've read in a long time. Is this topic suppose to be taken seriously? None of the people in question should respond to this. I find it hilarious that anybody would bring this up at all, given the fact all parties that have to do with this matter can't even properly respond. Its in very poor taste.
 

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Yes the Panasonic THX mode is dim, and in my brightly lit family room it is unusable. So I don't use it, my older model 46PZ800U is setup in the Custom mode. It's obvious that such knowledgible reviewers, by intentionally setting the Panasonic in a limited brightness mode, would be aware of the affect on the outcome of the review beforehand. If their intention was to point out the limitations of the THX mode, then they could have also tested the Panasonic in the Custom mode where the brightness could have been equalized. But, let's face it, reviews are seldom fair and balanced anyway, which is why you always need to check out as many of them as you can find and then go judge the panels for yourself.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocuMaker /forum/post/16945601


Well D-Nice is fully welcome to explain to us why he made the trade-offs that he did, keeping the Panny in a quite dim THX mode. He may very well have had valid reasons for doing so. I am not a calibrator and I did not have access to the V10 as he did. People should still be aware that the path he chose resulted in a much dimmer panel than all the rest for the contest.


I feel it would have been better, and more transparent, if all this was explained to the audience up-front during the shootout. It would have been preferable if D-Nice explained to the audience that he felt he could get a more accurate picture by staying with THX mode, even if it resulted in a much dimmer picture than all the rest of the panels.


I just felt the need to point out that the Panasonic V10 was considerably dimmer than all the rest of the displays during the shootout, and that it probably hurt it in the subjective audience voting.

You're kidding right? Either you didn't do your homework or you have your own vendetta because Custom mode was used, calibrated and reported during the shootout. It was specifically chosen, by me, to be used as the Day mode because that mode had the best performance for the target of 50+fL peak light output. I'm pretty sure that if THX mode was not chosen you would have been complaining and insinuating that the event was also rigged and the exclusion of THX was a "fallacy".


You have been bitchin' and complaining about that event ever since it was done because you cannot accept the fact that Samsungs are better in color, grayscale, and gamma compared to any 12G Panasonic. Those are the DOCUMENTED facts that are easily repeatable by anyone who wants to do their own evaluation of said displays. Better yet, why haven't YOU used up tens of thousands of dollars of your own money to purchase 8 of the, subjectively, best displays on the market and conduct your own shootout?



That's what I though..... crickets.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VA_DaveB
Yes the Panasonic THX mode is dim, and in my brightly lit family room it is unusable. So I don't use it, my older model 46PZ800U is setup in the Custom mode. It's obvious that such knowledgible reviewers, by intentionally setting the Panasonic in a limited brightness mode, would be aware of the affect on the outcome of the review beforehand. If their intention was to point out the limitations of the THX mode, then they could have also tested the Panasonic in the Custom mode where the brightness could have been equalized. But, let's face it, reviews are seldom fair and balanced anyway, which is why you always need to check out as many of them as you can find and then go judge the panels for yourself.
Do you have any further questions and or comments????

 

Panasonic TC-P50V10 Post Calibration Report (THX).pdf 192.8818359375k . file

 

Panasonic TC-P50V10 Post Calibration Report (Custom).pdf 197.537109375k . file
 

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^Yeah, what he said


I think Documaker really needs another hobby, a girlfriend, or something. WAAAY too much time devoted to scrutinizing every minuscule detail ad nauseam and second guessing the findings of professionals that admittedly have a vastly superior understanding of these topics.


Just go ahead and buy something and start actually experiencing one of the displays you are obsessing over. You make an OCD person seem chill.
 

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I can understand why the Panasonic was calibrated to be slightly more dim.


When I was able to mess around with certain models in store, I did notice the trend that the panasonics were just plainly darker then the other tv's. If i tried to make them brighter, they lost some of the "pop" effect, since the colors became washed out. Im sure this becomes less of an issue in a dark room, but as with all tv's you would still see that same color loss if the panasonic was too bright. When I cranked the brightness to try and match how bright the Samsung 650 next to it appeared to be, the sammy colors were just more punchy in my opinion.


From my few experiences where I have seen the sets, I think it all just lends itself to Panasonic being more ideal in a pitch black room, where you dont need the brightness cranked.


Im certainly no expert, but from what I gathered from a little of the shootout was that each of the sets had their strengths, not really sure you can target the people for making it "unfair".
 
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