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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm not sure how refer to this, because I'm not completely comfortable asking for uber-speculation.


I just do not stand alone in disappointment with the PQ of the LG IPS panels in 2012. Their passive 3D mastery is certainly the most surprisingly impressive thing I've seen, but even their 2012 "flagship" model LM9600 had endless complaints about DSE, Bleed/Flashlighting, Clouding, and other generalized mayhem.


Further, I am very unimpressed with LG's off-angle (off-axis) viewing.


The 2013 Sony W802A line is supposedly (3rd hand from AVS member who spoke to someone at Sony) the rough replacement for the 2012 HX750 (except for passive-3D primarily). I'm guessing (
 

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You pose an interesting question. It seems that LG panel quality has taken a small downward spiral since about 2011-12, at least according to the complaints posted here. I have a 2010 LG with the S-IPS panel and it looks as sharp and clean, with very good off-axis viewing, as it did the day I brought it home. It seems that 2010 was a good year for some tv mfrs but since then...... not sure why.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot  /t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq/0_100#post_23103064


You pose an interesting question. It seems that LG panel quality has taken a small downward spiral since about 2011-12, at least according to the complaints posted here. I have a 2010 LG with the S-IPS panel and it looks as sharp and clean, with very good off-axis viewing, as it did the day I brought it home. It seems that 2010 was a good year for some tv mfrs but since then...... not sure why.

Does your 2010 bleed? What model?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024  /t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq/0_20#post_23103089


Does your 2010 bleed? What model?

No. But it's not a plasma. It's the LD520.
 

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I doubt very much Sony is targeting a move downmarket.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot  /t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq/0_100#post_23103167

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024  /t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq/0_20#post_23103089


Does your 2010 bleed? What model?

No. But it's not a plasma. It's the LD520.

The edge-bleed I mean (aka colloquially as LG's infamous "bleed"). That's obviously an LCD issue. Perhaps LG over-did the rush to thin before their light technology tolerances could catch up.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024  /t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq/0_20#post_23104054


The edge-bleed I mean (aka colloquially as LG's infamous "bleed"). That's obviously an LCD issue. Perhaps LG over-did the rush to thin before their light technology tolerances could catch up.

Nope. No bleed at all (at least none that I see that affects pq).
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Does there exist a way for Sony to have manufactured their own passive panels? LG's seem to be IPS, but I'm not convinced that's a requirement for passive, despite what their propaganda site says.
 

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I own a 2012 model LG 47LM6400. It has barely noticeable bleed or banding, especially compared to the 2010 model Sony EX-710 it replaced. It's off-angle performance is also far better. If this is the result of it's LG panel I'd say Sony is doing the right thing if indeed they are buying ips panels from them. BTW we just bought a Sony KDL40R450 2013 model for another room. It's direct lit, not edge lit, being an entry level model. It's black levels are nonetheless very good and it has no discernible bleed or banding but it's off/angle performance is definitely inferior to the LG (not a problem as there are no seating positions in that room that are off-center enough to make this obvious), which indicates to me that it's not an ips panel.


I can't speak for the OP but the vast majority of owners of LG IPS panels report quite good off/angle performance, something I observe every day at the electronics dept. of a major retailer where I work. The LG IPS panels on the LG and Panny sets where I work vs 2012 Samsung and Sony models bear this out.


To say that buying panels from LG will mean the end of Sony pq is, imho, laughable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S  /t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq/0_100#post_23104279


I own a 2012 model LG 47LM6400. It has barely noticeable bleed or banding, especially compared to the 2010 model Sony EX-710 it replaced. It's off-angle performance is also far better. If this is the result of it's LG panel I'd say Sony is doing the right thing if indeed they are buying ips panels from them. BTW we just bought a Sony KDL40R450 2013 model for another room. It's direct lit, not edge lit, being an entry level model. It's black levels are nonetheless very good and it has no discernible bleed or banding but it's off/angle performance is definitely inferior to the LG (not a problem as there are no seating positions in that room that are off-center enough to make this obvious), which indicates to me that it's not an ips panel.


I can't speak for the OP but the vast majority of owners of LG IPS panels report quite good off/angle performance, something I observe every day at the electronics dept. of a major retailer where I work. The LG IPS panels on the LG and Panny sets where I work vs 2012 Samsung and Sony models bear this out.


To say that buying panels from LG will mean the end of Sony pq is, imho, laughable.

Hardly laughable. If you want to agree to disagree, then so be it. I'm up for that. That's what this forum is great at.


But bleed is a considerable problem with the 2012s, and no, not just what some people seem to think is endemic to all edge-lits. And common DSE & clouding. Look at the LG forums, and look at the complaints in the Sony forums. Look at the LM 7600/8600/7200 forums.


Now forums do tend to collect the complaints. So comparing the complaints of the Sonys mid to higher tier TVs to the LGs, and I just don't see anything "laughable" about it at all. Forget the edge's even: Look at how angry the folks are about the LG flagship, the LM9600. Actually, I find this direct comparison to the sony HX850 kinda humorous (the sony was $1000 less). Look at 1:20 or so on. http://cnettv.cnet.com/lg-great-design-masks-problematic-picture-quality/9742-1_53-50124818.html I think "muddy" was one of his terms.


Now here's a bottom line for me: when viewing everything side by side, nearly every Sony *BEAT* every LG I saw for off-axis (off-angle) viewing. The IPS "178°" in my opinion, while great on paper, does not pan out IRL. Hoozthatat put it fairly well with his particular target of ire:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoozthatat  /t/1460590/official-2013-sony-r550a-series-tvs-kdl-xxr550a-50-60-and-70/0_100#post_23098643


The LG LM6700 uses one of their IPS panels and the off axis viewing is the worst I've seen on any FP in a long time. Absolutely horrible.

Of course that's just one of the issues on a long list of issues with that FP.

I can't speak for your showfloor experience here, but mine seems clearly different.
 

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[quote name="Steve S" url="/t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq#post_23104279"

I can't speak for the OP but the vast majority of owners of LG IPS panels report quite good off/angle performance, something I observe every day at the electronics dept. of a major retailer where I work. [/quote]


Yeah, my 65LW6500 (2011 model) has good off angle performance, nearly 45 degrees each way from dead center I'd estimate. Maybe I'll have to get out my speed square and string line to double-check that.


You can criticize LG IPS panels for a some things, but off angle view isn't one of them. Not if my TV is any indication.


I could wish mine had better blacks and contrast, for instance. I read a U.K. review that pegged the native contrast at 1,600:1, not great, to be sure, but not terrible. The non-uniformity doesn't bother me, since it's minor and only apparent when switching to an inactive input, not while watching content. Passive 3D was the determining factor, I'll admit. When I got mine, the only other passive set in 65" size was a Vizio.


Had passive 3D not been a requirement for me, I almost certainly would have gotten something else. Still, for anyone to give the strong impression that LG is junk... is not fair, IMO.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzi93  /t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq/0_100#post_23104948

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S  /t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq#post_23104279


I can't speak for the OP but the vast majority of owners of LG IPS panels report quite good off/angle performance, something I observe every day at the electronics dept. of a major retailer where I work.

Yeah, my 65LW6500 (2011 model) has good off angle performance, nearly 45 degrees each way from dead center I'd estimate.

Curious. (No sarcasm) is that viewing angle impressive to you?

Quote:
Had passive 3D not been a requirement for me, I almost certainly would have gotten something else. Still, for anyone to give the strong impression that LG is junk... is not fair, IMO.

Junk? No. But the problems I listed are real. It may seem that I'm over-stating things, but my worry is amplified because I've been impressed by what I see from Sony in general, and I've similarly been disappointed by LG.


I suppose we'll see in a month or so (for the 802 & 550 at least).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024  /t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq#post_23105276


Curious. (No sarcasm) is that viewing angle impressive to you?

Impressive? No, but many (most?) LCDs I've seen are worse. And you did say LGs had *bad* viewing angle performance. Just to be clear, when I say 45 degrees, I mean that's where I can first detect a hint of washout in, say skin tones. One can actually move a good deal further off axis before it's obvious. Obvious even to my wife, that is.



As to other attributes, my LG is pretty mediocre. Dunno about current models.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by fritzi93  /t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq/0_100#post_23105636

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024  /t/1464306/2013-if-sony-does-move-to-lg-panels-is-it-possibly-the-end-of-sony-pq#post_23105276


Curious. (No sarcasm) is that viewing angle impressive to you?

Impressive? No, but many (most?) LCDs I've seen are worse. And you did say LGs had *bad* viewing angle performance. Just to be clear, when I say 45 degrees, I mean that's where I can first detect a hint of washout in, say skin tones.

Yes, to be clear, I did say that LG's had bad viewing angle performance, and I still insist it does. True, I'm primarily confining this discussion to the on-topic comparison to Sony's price-equivalent sets, but relative to what the LG's cost in general, it really disappoints me. Further, the routine spiking of the IPS football with "178° viewing angle" further exacerbates the disappointment. But that's not their biggest problem. Their biggest problems by far are the bleed and clouding.

Quote:
As to other attributes, my LG is pretty mediocre. Dunno about current models.

While "Mediocre" steps us into semantics, "Mediocre" is just not what the Sony mid to upper tier is known for, I'm sorry. The bottom line is side by side comparisons, AND comparisons of review complaints. And, I'd reiterate that my worry has to do with the most recent evidence of LG PQ (2012).


Enough of this, your observations are valuable. But there will be detractors and proponents of everything if you broaden the sample far enough (even proponents for Vizio
). I'm worried about what happens on aggregate.
 

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Not to drag this out, but with viewing angles it's hard to be precise. As I alluded to when I wrote that my wife doesn't see it quite like I do.


Then there are the utterly ridiculous claims in LCD specs. One hundred seventy-odd degrees viewing angle? Really? That's as useless as (dynamic) contrast ratio claims. Or when Cnet reviews talk about viewing angles and don't explain adequately what they mean. Good, average, bad, what the hell? No numbers?


Anyway, I get what you're saying about LG. Their products aren't...hmm...going to impress videophiles.
 

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Sony partnered with LG because it isn't going with Samsung any longer and it is actually staking it's future on OLED in a joint venture with Panasonic.


I've seen both the LG ans Sony 4K set side by side and they both have the same panel, but the Sony looked better and so far it is reviewing better overall so ifeel confidnet that Sony will make full use of the LG panels if it wants and still provide a good picture.


It will be a few years before OLED can be Sony's one and only panel tech to cover the market and i really doubt they would start pumping out inferior quality LG panel based units and further erode their market position just as they are trying to ramp up OLED.


They really need the sales now and likely 2013 and 2014 are their last chance to do anything in LCD that would help establish them as leaders again.


Sony is going to push 4K hard with it's forthcoming streaming service and the Playstation 4 in the fall too. All that push wouldn't line up with sub-par TV models.


If anything Sony is just going to narrow the models it offers and let LG fight Samsung in the cheap market and push premium features like gorilla glass and real speakers.


If Sony can pull off a successful 4K transition it will be in a really good spot together with Panasonic for OLED over LG and Samsung and Sony has a big stake in the game for 4K movies and production. They cannot afford to toss what little market share it has left and go cutting out quality.
 

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According to this announcement their XBR8 series is being replaced with KDL-W900A based on QD Vision quantum dot technology and has begun shipping to stores. Since quantities aren't mentioned, I suspect they are floor demos, but I hope I'm wrong about that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Fundamental question (albeit clumsily worded):


If Sony uses an LG panel, where do the technologies for motion (pulse additives) and edge lighting precision (avoiding bleed) lie?


(I'm assuming they cannot touch the lighting, is this right?) Is that LGs technology (again, a 2012 disappointment) or Sony's?


And what of the Sony motion handling? I have often thought that superior across their 2012 line.


IOW, what makes a purchased panel a panel, how much of Sony is in the Sony LG-panel TV and where is the line drawn?
 

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The edge lighting might or might not be purchased with the panel. It usually is but that's not always true. There are so-called "open cell" sales of panels only where the BLU (backlight unit) is added by the buyer, not the seller. Most sales include the whole LCD "module" with BLU.


That said, it's still up to assembly/manufacturing to not blow the light-guide tolerances and such to avoid bleed and get uniformity nailed. Sony has a lot of control no matter what they source.


As for motion handling, that's likely to be mostly panel independent, too, although panels that are bad with motion (if any exist) can't be fixed in the processing.
 

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i dont really see how you can put emphasis on " Sony PQ" when they refused to produce anything but a technology that was inferior in PQ from the beginning to this day.
 
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