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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
With todays news, there are now 2+2 Major brands that have made mainstream commitments to FALD LED/LCD in their 2014 lineups. Here is the list:


Sony X950B 4K FALD LED/LCD with unknown number of local dimming zones (small commitment)


Panasonic AX900 4K FALD LED/LCD with 128 local dimming zones (small commitment)


Toshiba L9400U 4K FALD LED/LCD with unknown number of local dimming zones

Toshiba L7400U 1080p FALD LED/LCD with unknown number of local dimming zones


Vizio Reference Series 4K FALD LED/LCD with 384 local dimming zones (product not yet certain in 2014)

Vizio P Series 4K FALD LED/LCD with 64 local dimming zones

Vizio M Series 1080p FALD LED/LCD with 32 local dimming zones

Vizio E Series 1080p FALD LED/LCD with 16 local dimming zones



Sharp and the Koreans are sticking to edge-lit across their product lines in 2014 (I'm not counting the $150K 110" Samsung S9 FALD panel for the 0.1%
)


Here is an interesting HDTEST article on the Panasonic AX900 from today found by jetjockey: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ax900-201403243688.htm


[edited on 3/25/14 to fix misreporting on AX800 by HDTVTEST yesterday - it is edge-lit]
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list#post_24525947


With todays news, there are now 3 major brands that have made major commitments to FALD LED/LCD in their 2014 lineups. Here is the list:


Sony X950B 4K FALD LED/LCD with unknown number of local dimming zones (small commitment)


Panasonic AX900 4K FALD LED/LCD with 128 local dimming zones

Panasonic AX800 4K FALD LED/LCD with 32 local dimming zones


Toshiba L9400U 4K FALD LED/LCD with unknown number of local dimming zones

Toshiba L7400U 1080p FALD LED/LCD with unknown number of local dimming zones


Vizio Reference Series 4K FALD LED/LCD with 384 local dimming zones (product not yet certain in 2014)

Vizio P Series 4K FALD LED/LCD with 64 local dimming zones

Vizio M Series 1080p FALD LED/LCD with 32 local dimming zones

Vizio E Series 1080p FALD LED/LCD with 16 local dimming zones



Sharp and the Koreans are sticking to edge-lit across their product lines in 2014 (I'm not counting the ~100" Samsung FALD panel for the 0.1%
)


Here is an interesting HDTEST article on the Panasonic AX800 and AX900 from today found by jetjockey: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/ax900-201403243688.htm

So the only pricing we have on these newly announced Panny FALD's is for the 58 inch AX800 with 32 dimming zones being $3800?


Unless that price gets seriously busted down, I am starting to see what rogo has intimated on the various 2014 Vizio threads - that the Japanese are in trouble when comparables from Vizio like the 60 inch P with twice the dimming zones is less than half the price.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterNincompoop  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list#post_24526067


So the only pricing we have on these newly announced Panny FALD's is for the 58 inch AX800 with 32 dimming zones being $3800?


Unless that price gets seriously busted down, I am starting to see what rogo has intimated on the various 2014 Vizio threads - that the Japanese are in trouble when comparables from Vizio like the 60 inch P with twice the dimming zones is less than half the price.

Let's hope that Panasonic pulls a 'Sharp' - a 35% pre-launch discount would bring the 58" AX800 to $2500. [edit: now turns out that the AX800 is edge-lit, not FALD, so this is a non-starter and should be compared to the Sharp UQ and not the Vizio P]


The 60" Vizio P Series is $1800 - that would represent a quality/reputation discount of ~28% for the Vizio versus the 58" AX800 Panasonic - not out of the realm of the possible (assuming Panasonic discounts the AX800 by 35%). For equal performance, Vizio is unlikely to command the same price as any of the top-tier brands like Panasonic (at least until they rove themselves at the top level for a couple years). [edit: being edge-lit, this comparison makes less sense than the comparison to the Sharp UQ where the 60" currently has an MSRP of $3000 and a street price of $2500]


I'm really more interested in the 65" AX900, where I would certainly be prepared to pay a premium over the price of the 65" Vizio P Series.


So between the 65" Vizio P Series at $2200, and the 65" Sony X950B at $8000 (which is almost certain to be significantly discounted before any meaningful sales begin), it will be interesting to see where Panasonic prices the 65" AX900 and where Vizio prices the 65" Reference Series.


The shootout between those four panels is what I'd really like to see, but it sounds like the AX900 is coming out to late to make it (and probably also the Vizio Reference Series as well).


Realizing that a lot more goes into a good FALD TV other than the number of dimming zones, it is still interesting to compare rankings by price and by dimming zones (with some speculation to fill in the blanks).


On price, this is the ranking I expect: Vizio P

On dimming zones, the ranking is different: Vizio P

(I am speculating that the Sony X950B has between more than 128 and less than 384 dimming zones based on no information).


I believe the AX900 street price may represent a price ceiling for the Vizio R.


I'm curious to see how the pricing for all of these sets unfolds this year...


[edited 3/25/14 to remove references to the AX800 being FALD erroneously reported by HDTVTEST yesterday...]
 

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With FALD right around the corner it makes me hesitant to buy anything at all this year. And I really want a new larger tv.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatti-man  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list#post_24526298


With FALD right around the corner it makes me hesitant to buy anything at all this year. And I really want a new larger tv.

Yep same here. Like to see the P series Vizio when its released.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatti-man  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list#post_24526298


With FALD right around the corner it makes me hesitant to buy anything at all this year. And I really want a new larger tv.

Oh, trust me - I feel your pain and then some.


Since late 2012 I've had five TVs, three different models total (Panny UT50, S64, Sony W900A) and all wound up getting returned for various issues. My primary TV is now a 46" 720P Sony LCD projection screen from ten years ago that I pulled out of the basement. I'm suffering waiting for a new TV, and praying the Vizio P Series is a good screen. I've got a bunch of movies I haven't watched and games I haven't played solely because I'm waiting until I have a screen that does them a bit of justice.


It's seriously pathetic that the industry has focused so much on making cheaper thinner TVs reliant on marketing fluff (fudged refresh rates, excessive brightness and color saturation, motion processing) that the only way you can get a proper FALD backlit TV is if you spend $4,000+. How backwards have things gotten now that it looks like Vizio is the company targeting enthusiasts and everyone else is about mainstream cheap TVs?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list#post_24526735


FALD list from the past. There are a few missing. Started by Artwood, the Edge Lit hater
btw i was the one who started using FALD because i had enough of writing full array local dimming all the time.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1245172/unofficial-local-dimming-list-and-benefits

Well I'm getting tired of writing 'edge-lit local dimming' or 'edge-lit pseudo-local dimming' all the time, so maybe you can help me and/or give me advice how to get 'ELLD' or 'ELPD' accepted by the Forum (and eventually the industry
)


p.s. which do you like better? I prefer ELPD because it really is not local in any sense of the world...
 

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ELED (Edge Lit LED) ELED LD? Maybe a thread on that subject would help. Or not.


I start using FALD. Then a few others did, and suddenly everybody started using it (on AVS that is. Outside AVS FALD has very little meaning). So it was a natural proces.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatti-man  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list/0_50#post_24526298


With FALD right around the corner it makes me hesitant to buy anything at all this year. And I really want a new larger tv.
I'm getting the itch myself to replace my 57" Hitachi 1080i RP-CRT. I want 65" or larger with FALD, but I don't really care about 4k. That seems to mean Vizio is the only game in town unless I buy a 4k TV. Frankly, I think buying a 4k TV now is not particularly prudent. The whole thing is still too much in flux with HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2, Rec2020, ect...


I'd love to get my hands on a TV with a Samsung 75" 1080p S-PVA panel with FALD, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards for 2014. If Vizio makes some headway with their full FALD line-up the other makers may get on board for 2015.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list#post_24527898


I like Edge LD

Well that doesn't say anything about whether it is frame dimming or pseudo-local dimming, so maybe we need three:


FALD = Full-Array Local Dimming

ELPD = Edge-Lit Pseudo-local Dimming

ELFD = Edge-Lit Frame Dimming
 

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Rec.2020 is like the new deep color. I don't see it doing much at all. All I really worry about is 2.2 and hdcp. FALD is the next big thing imo if we are going to stick with lcd.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetjocky  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list#post_24527865


Fafrd...Sorry about that red herring, ie hdtvtest. I didn't check6 long enough!!!
You don't need to apologize - it's those idiots at HDTVTEST that deserve a whack upside the head, especially after that lead sentence saying something like "Despite what you may have suspected to the contrary", (the AX800 is full-array local dimming).


Talk about bone-headed journalism - they knew what the lack of a clear spec on the AX800 was leading people to conclude, they told all of those speculators that they were wrong after speaking with Panasonic, and then it turns out that their understanding of Japanese is not as good as they thought it was



Kind of makes you wonder who pointed put the mistake to HDTVTEST after yesterday's article got published, doesn't it?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatti-man  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list/0_60#post_24528136


Rec.2020 is like the new deep color. I don't see it doing much at all.
Right. Until we have new standards for media that lets them contain the extra colors (and luminances), TV sets can't be allowed to show the extra colors, because they aren't actually there in the signal. (And new standards for media is what Dolby Vision, supposedly supported by the Vizio Reference sets, is all about.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list#post_24528196

Quote:
Originally Posted by gatti-man  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list/0_60#post_24528136


Rec.2020 is like the new deep color. I don't see it doing much at all.
Right. Until we have new standards for media that lets them contain the extra colors (and luminances), TV sets can't be allowed to show the extra colors, because they aren't actually there in the signal. (And new standards for media is what Dolby Vision, supposedly supported by the Vizio Reference sets, is all about.)

Netflix should be streaming original content like House of Cards and Breaking Bad in UHD by late this year:

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/126457-netflix-uhd-4k-interview-when-where-and-how-to-get-4k-content


And Dolby is making it sound like Netflix will be a partner for rollout of Dolby-Vision encoded (metadata) streaming content before yearend:

http://www.engadget.com/2014/01/06/dolby-vision-fall-release/


But it is difficult to find any real statements linking the Netflix plan to stream UHD before the end of this year to including Dolby Vision as part of that UHD content:

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1390209932

"Dolby... want to partner up with streaming services, and say that Netflix, Amazon, Vudu and Xbox Video are already committed. We asked Netflix about this during our interview with them at CES, but the Netflix execs did not seem familiar with this, so it seems that the details are still up in the air (more in our upcoming Netflix interview). The goal is to launch before year’s end."
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list/0_60#post_24528909

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1390209932

"Dolby... want to partner up with streaming services, and say that Netflix, Amazon, Vudu and Xbox Video are already committed. We asked Netflix about this during our interview with them at CES, but the Netflix execs did not seem familiar with this, so it seems that the details are still up in the air (more in our upcoming Netflix interview). The goal is to launch before year’s end."
Right, I saw that. It makes you wonder whether Dolby's streaming content partners didn't think to themselves, hey, this Dolby Vision idea is never going anywhere, so what can it hurt to be nice to Dolby? Yeah, yeah, sure we'll carry your extra signal, if there's anyone out there that can see it.


Personally, I don't think I'll have enough internet bandwidth into my house to instream Dolby Vision, anyway. I'm hoping the next Blu-ray revision for 4K will accommodate Dolby Vision.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list#post_24529497

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/1524186/2014-fald-led-lcd-list/0_60#post_24528909

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1390209932

"Dolby... want to partner up with streaming services, and say that Netflix, Amazon, Vudu and Xbox Video are already committed. We asked Netflix about this during our interview with them at CES, but the Netflix execs did not seem familiar with this, so it seems that the details are still up in the air (more in our upcoming Netflix interview). The goal is to launch before year’s end."
Right, I saw that. It makes you wonder whether Dolby's streaming content partners didn't think to themselves, hey, this Dolby Vision idea is never going anywhere, so what can it hurt to be nice to Dolby? Yeah, yeah, sure we'll carry your extra signal, if there's anyone out there that can see it.


Personally, I don't think I'll have enough internet bandwidth into my house to instream Dolby Vision, anyway. I'm hoping the next Blu-ray revision for 4K will accommodate Dolby Vision.

I think it really boils down to whether they are going to use Dolby Vision technology in the encoding process of the 4K content or not. If Dolby is not being used in the encoding process (which is where they stuff metadata with their Dolby Vision HDR data), then all we are going to get on Netflix UHD House of Cards will be higher resolution...


Not to worried about bandwidth - if you live in the boonies it may take some time, but here in the Bay Area the bandwidth for Dolby Vision / 4K streaming is readily available.
 
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