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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just ran into this and though I would share the link in case it has not been posted yet: http://global.ofweek.com/news/Red-phosphor-powder-used-in-making-high-color-gamut-TVs-8077


It seems that, compared to the 2013 high-color-gamut LED/LCD introduced by Sony and based on the 'Quantum Dot Film' used to create a 'Triluminous' backlight, the broader 2014 trend towards 100% NTSC high-color-gamut LED/LCD panels in Flagship TVs is being fueled by a new red phosphor paint being applied directly to the LED (along with another green/blue phosphor paint)...


-fafrd
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24444512


There was some news a few months ago about the Sharp blue LED with green and red phosphors which has a 83% color gamut on NTSC standard for some of Sharps wide color gamut LCd panels. Coincidentally Vizio reported 80% of rec 2020 color space on it's 4K TVs so 100% might be a false claim


SHARP
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20131217/323134/
VIZIO
http://televisions.reviewed.com/features/whats-so-great-about-vizios-reference-series

Thanks. Sound like the 'Red Phospher' Sharp is using was licensed from GE (from the link I found above):

"U.S. manufacturer GE was the first to obtain Mn 4+ red phosphor patent, later Japanese LED manufacturer Nichia and Sharp received patent authorization from GE. "



The only slight mystery is that while the Sharp Wide Color Gamut panels in the article you linked to only cover 90% of NTSC, the WCG panels from AUO claim to cover 100% of NTSC - maybe it has something to do with the choice of the Green/Blue phosphor...


While I couldn't find a direct quote from Vizio on the '80% of rec.2020' claim, they certainly seem to have supported that idea through various reviews of their new Reference Series.


I believe that rec.2020 is significantly larger than NTSC, so 100% of NTSC may well amount to about 80% of rec.2020 (but is more specific). You can see the difference between rec.2020, NTSC, rec.709, and the WCG of the Sony 900B if you look here: http://www.noteloop.com/kit/display/color-space/ntsc-1953/


Unfortunately, you can not see the various color spaces at the same time, but you can see the relative coverage by clicking on the various color spaces on the left.


According to that site, NTSC is 66.5% of rec.2020 and rec.2020 is 99.8% of NTSC. So a panel which is '100% NTSC' will need even more colorspace coverage to reach 80% of rec.2020 (about 20% more)...


-fafrd
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24444953


This explains the disappearing QDEF films I imagine.

Yeah, sounds like the dual-color phosphors are the HCG solution-of-choice for 2014...


One of the problems mentioned in the article related to the Quantum Dot film used by Sony was that, while the film was RHoS compliant at the time of sale, disposal was a real problem when the set was dead. Did not see the same issue raised about this new red phosphor from GE, so if the performance is about as good and no other issues are introduced, it may replace QDot film going forward...


-fafrd
 

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In a 2008 article Digtimes states that ''blue LEDs with red and green phosphors may become mainstream for TV use blu's in 2009''. That did not happen but there is a good chance that it will become mainstream in 4K TVs (which means that the QD stuff is out of the game), not shure about 1080p LED TVs.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher/0_60#post_24444804


According to that site, NTSC is 66.5% of rec.2020 and rec.2020 is 99.8% of NTSC. So a panel which is '100% NTSC' will need even more colorspace coverage to reach 80% of rec.2020 (about 20% more)...
That's a little confusing.


What does NTSC mean? Does that refer to rec. 709? There was a NTSC 1953 standard used for analog TV:
Quote:
NTSC 1953 was the analog television standard for most of the Americas and a few countries in Asia. Today it’s no longer used for that purpose, because analog television has been superseded by digital television. A few specifications of the NTSC 1953 standard are still in use today though.
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pointers_gamut.htm

Here is a diagram of some wide color gamuts with the squiggly line showing "Pointer's gamut", the colors we can see in nature, which can be taken as the ideal;


Quote:
Current wide color gamut standards Adobe RGB 1998, commonly used by pro photographers and designers, and DCI-P3, used in digital cinema, compared to Pointer’s gamut in CIE 1976
from http://dot-color.com/category/color-gamut-standards/
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24448185


What does NTSC mean? Does that refer to rec. 709? There was a NTSC 1953 standard used for analog TV:
Quote:
NTSC 1953 was the analog television standard for most of the Americas and a few countries in Asia. Today it’s no longer used for that purpose, because analog television has been superseded by digital television. A few specifications of the NTSC 1953 standard are still in use today though.
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pointers_gamut.htm

Yes, 'NTSC' is a reference to the 1953 NTSC standard. NTSC 100% appears to be a commonly-used specification for today's wide-color-gamut dsplays.


If you follow this link, you can see NTSC 1953 and what % coverage it represents of rec.709 (89.97%), DCI-P3 (82.2%), Adobe RGB (91.2%) and rec.2020 (66.5%). You can also click on the other color spaces in red to the left to see how each of them covers the others...: http://www.noteloop.com/kit/display/color-space/ntsc-1953/

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24448185


Here is a diagram of some wide color gamuts with the squiggly line showing "Pointer's gamut", the colors we can see in nature, which can be taken as the ideal;


Quote:
Current wide color gamut standards Adobe RGB 1998, commonly used by pro photographers and designers, and DCI-P3, used in digital cinema, compared to Pointer’s gamut in CIE 1976
from http://dot-color.com/category/color-gamut-standards/

Pointer's gamut is also shown on the link I provided and the coverage by NTSC 1952 is 79.4%.


I agree, it is confusing. But despite the fact that is no longer actively being used in broadcast of digital TV, digital panel makers are apparently using NTSC as the reference for their 'wide color gamut' LCDs. See for example this article on AUOs WCG panel: http://www.auo.com/?sn=107&lang=en-US&c=9&n=1544


"Next-generation UHD 4K Wide Color Gamut TV Panels


AUO has successfully developed UHD 4K technology and will demonstrate 65 and 55-inch next-generation UHD 4K Wide Color Gamut TV Panels, which are equipped with Wide Color Gamut (WCG) technology with saturation of over 100% NTSC. "



Also, if you look at this white paper fro QD VIzion on Quantum Dots and color gamut: http://www.qdvision.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/0/a28995fc8c4c938329c050276ccf47b0/pdf/qdv_whitepaper___color_matters___january_2014.pdf


They make several reverences to NTSC 1953 as being the color gamut target they are aiming for:


Page 3: "However, even as succeeding generations of competitively priced LCD panels have escalated screen-size and resolution battles, the color-performance aspect of picture quality has actually degraded relative to the FCC’s original 1953 NTSC color-gamut definition."


And also on page 3: "Picture quality is the core of the OLED value proposition, particularly the delivery of full-gamut 100% NTSC color." (as well as a good chart of NTSC 1953 versus rec.709)


And on page 4: "In the case of color, as OLED TV entrants tout, meaningful Rec. 709 picture quality improvements are possible using a 100% NTSC full-gamut color display. 100% NTSC display technologies are also well positioned for expansion to full-gamut color overlap with standards such as DCI to support consumer home access to a digital theater experience.


So at least for now, 100% NTSC seems to be the most common definition of 'full-gamut color' to represent a meaningful expansion of the color gamut beyond rec.709...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
An relevant article I just found on 'Wide Color Gamut and Wild Color Gamut' on SpectraCal's website:
http://www.spectracal.com/downloads/files/Website/8%20Wide%20gamut%20and%20wild%20gamut.pdf


A quote from the last paragraph of this September 2010 article:

"CE manufacturers are meanwhile saying, in effect, “Please give us your cinema-grade, P3 wide-gamut images!” Content creators reply, “Why, so you can screw them up, too?”


Resolution to the problem won’t be soon in coming. Development of technology to maintain creative intent, and availability of widegamut content, are perhaps 3 or 5 years away."



If UHD content supporting wide color gamut ends up being available by the end of this year or even by the end of 2015 (from Netflix or wherever), the author will have ended up being pretty prescient...
 

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Comparing the gamuts by measuring areas on a chromaticity diagram, as I gather is being done with the "NTSC" number, doesn't seem like a great way of doing it. I guess they do it that way because it's easy -- just calculate the area of a triangle then normalize to the NTSC 1953 area.


The paper I referred to above, The Pointer's Gamut , gives gamut coverages for a number of real devices using the NTSC 1953 method alongside the numbers you get with a point by point comparison to the coverage of various standards (and to the Pointer's gamut), here: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/pointers_gamut.htm#_Toc379132087
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher/0_60#post_24448543

"CE manufacturers are meanwhile saying, in effect, “Please give us your cinema-grade, P3 wide-gamut images!” Content creators reply, “Why, so you can screw them up, too?”
This person clearly has the engineer's idea of high fidelity, which is faithfulness to the signal instead of faithfulness to the scene (or sound). I am totally out of sympathy. If a "wild gamut" TV can apply some algorithm to get a good approximation to, for example, the green of foliage by recognizing green foliage in a scene and enhancing the signal to get a better looking green on a wide gamut display, more power to it. What does it matter that some colorist didn't know his movie would ever be shown on a wide gamut device?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24449208


Comparing the gamuts by measuring areas on a chromaticity diagram, as I gather is being done with the "NTSC" number, doesn't seem like a great way of doing it. I guess they do it that way because it's easy -- just calculate the area of a triangle then normalize to the NTSC 1953 area.


The paper I referred to above, The Pointer's Gamut , gives gamut coverages for a number of real devices using the NTSC 1953 method alongside the numbers you get with a point by point comparison to the coverage of various standards (and to the Pointer's gamut), here: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/pointers_gamut.htm#_Toc379132087

I've been assuming that 'NTSC 100%' means actual coverage of the full NTSC color triangle (not just a color coverage triangle that has at least 100% of the area of the NTSC color coverage triangle).


That site shows how close NTSC 1958 is to DCI-P3. Using The Pointers Gamut as a common reference, you can see that DCI P3 basically covers most of The Pointers Gamut with the exception of some area of blue & green (figures 14 and 15), while NTSC1953 basically covers most of Pointers Gamut with the exception of some area of red and purple (figures 16 and 17).


You can see why everyone would like rec.2020 - it basically covers ALL of pointers Gamut (and in addition 99.98% of DCI-P3 and 99.99% of NTSC 1958)


Hopefully the fact that this years WCG LED/LCD displays seem to be taking advantage of a new red phosphor being supplied by GE, means that 'greater than 100% NTSC 1953' means improvements in the red are of the CIE chart. If so, this would mean the display covers all of NTSC 1953 and hopefully more of the red-to-purple outside of NTSC 1953 but within DCI-P3 (and pointers gamut)...


I guess we're just going to have to wait for these new WCG panels to arrive and be tested to truly understand what the NTSC 100% spec translates into...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24449391

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher/0_60#post_24448543

"CE manufacturers are meanwhile saying, in effect, “Please give us your cinema-grade, P3 wide-gamut images!” Content creators reply, “Why, so you can screw them up, too?”
This person clearly has the engineer's idea of high fidelity, which is faithfulness to the signal instead of faithfulness to the scene (or sound). I am totally out of sympathy. If a "wild gamut" TV can apply some algorithm to get a good approximation to, for example, the green of foliage by recognizing green foliage in a scene and enhancing the signal to get a better looking green on a wide gamut display, more power to it. What does it matter that some colorist didn't know his movie would ever be shown on a wide gamut device?

It's a bit of a delicate balancing act - I guess I'm hoping Dolby can bring some sensible suggestions to this 'wild color jungle'
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher/0_60#post_24449404


I've been assuming that 'NTSC 100%' means actual coverage of the full NTSC color triangle (not just a color coverage triangle that has at least 100% of the area of the NTSC color coverage triangle).
According to the author of The Pointer's Gamut, Kid Jansen, NTSC 100% just means an area on the chromaticity diagram equal to the area of the NTSC 1953 gamut:
Quote:
While the NTSC 1953 color space is no longer used for its original purposes, it is still used as a reference to describe the size of the color gamut of a display. This is simply done by comparing the size. You calculate the area of the color gamut in the CIE 1931 xy chromaticity diagram using the chromaticity coordinates and divide the result by 0.1582 (the area of NTSC 1953 in CIE 1931 xy). The size of the gamut is therefore only relative and not equal to the coverage of the NTSC 1953 color space, unless all three primaries of the color gamut of the display lie inside or on the edges of the NTSC color space.

And notice that the NTSC figures are well over 100% for the monitors in the table I referred to previously.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24449565

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher/0_60#post_24449404


I've been assuming that 'NTSC 100%' means actual coverage of the full NTSC color triangle (not just a color coverage triangle that has at least 100% of the area of the NTSC color coverage triangle).
According to the author of The Pointer's Gamut, Kid Jansen, NTSC 100% just means an area on the chromaticity diagram equal to the area of the NTSC 1953 gamut:
Quote:
While the NTSC 1953 color space is no longer used for its original purposes, it is still used as a reference to describe the size of the color gamut of a display. This is simply done by comparing the size. You calculate the area of the color gamut in the CIE 1931 xy chromaticity diagram using the chromaticity coordinates and divide the result by 0.1582 (the area of NTSC 1953 in CIE 1931 xy). The size of the gamut is therefore only relative and not equal to the coverage of the NTSC 1953 color space, unless all three primaries of the color gamut of the display lie inside or on the edges of the NTSC color space.

And notice that the NTSC figures are well over 100% for the monitors in the table I referred to previously.

Wow, I see that - you are right. So aside from knowing that a panel that is 'more than 100% NTSC' has a 'larger' color gamut than rec.709 (more than 40% larger), you don't know much of anything regarding which areas of the color space have been covered by the larger gamut.


And since NTSC is about 75% the size of rec.2020, the clams of wide gamut TVs like the Vizio Reference Series that they are 'close to 80% of rec.2020' are actually reasonably consistent with being 'more than 100% NTSC'.


From the list of monitors you provided a link to, 80% of rec.2020 seems to be about the state-of-the-art for right now (~120% NTSC)...
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24449404


I've been assuming that 'NTSC 100%' means actual coverage of the full NTSC color triangle (not just a color coverage triangle that has at least 100% of the area of the NTSC color coverage triangle).


That site shows how close NTSC 1958 is to DCI-P3. Using The Pointers Gamut as a common reference, you can see that DCI P3 basically covers most of The Pointers Gamut with the exception of some area of blue & green (figures 14 and 15), while NTSC1953 basically covers most of Pointers Gamut with the exception of some area of red and purple (figures 16 and 17).


You can see why everyone would like rec.2020 - it basically covers ALL of pointers Gamut (and in addition 99.98% of DCI-P3 and 99.99% of NTSC 1958)


Hopefully the fact that this years WCG LED/LCD displays seem to be taking advantage of a new red phosphor being supplied by GE, means that 'greater than 100% NTSC 1953' means improvements in the red are of the CIE chart. If so, this would mean the display covers all of NTSC 1953 and hopefully more of the red-to-purple outside of NTSC 1953 but within DCI-P3 (and pointers gamut)...


I guess we're just going to have to wait for these new WCG panels to arrive and be tested to truly understand what the NTSC 100% spec translates into...


Regarding DCI-P3, the best informed speculation I have found indicates that it will be used as the color gamut for 4k Blu-ray.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24452803

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24449404


I've been assuming that 'NTSC 100%' means actual coverage of the full NTSC color triangle (not just a color coverage triangle that has at least 100% of the area of the NTSC color coverage triangle).


That site shows how close NTSC 1958 is to DCI-P3. Using The Pointers Gamut as a common reference, you can see that DCI P3 basically covers most of The Pointers Gamut with the exception of some area of blue & green (figures 14 and 15), while NTSC1953 basically covers most of Pointers Gamut with the exception of some area of red and purple (figures 16 and 17).


You can see why everyone would like rec.2020 - it basically covers ALL of pointers Gamut (and in addition 99.98% of DCI-P3 and 99.99% of NTSC 1958)


Hopefully the fact that this years WCG LED/LCD displays seem to be taking advantage of a new red phosphor being supplied by GE, means that 'greater than 100% NTSC 1953' means improvements in the red are of the CIE chart. If so, this would mean the display covers all of NTSC 1953 and hopefully more of the red-to-purple outside of NTSC 1953 but within DCI-P3 (and pointers gamut)...


I guess we're just going to have to wait for these new WCG panels to arrive and be tested to truly understand what the NTSC 100% spec translates into...


Regarding DCI-P3, the best informed speculation I have found indicates that it will be used as the color gamut for 4k Blu-ray.

That would make a great deal of sense. And hopefully the panel manufacturers putting out '100%+ NTSC Full Color Gamut' panels are aware of that likelihood and putting out panels that have 100% coverage of DCI-P3 (sure would be nice if that was more clear from the specs they put out tough :)
 

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Quote:
That site shows how close NTSC 1958 is to DCI-P3. Using The Pointers Gamut as a common reference, you can see that DCI P3 basically covers most of The Pointers Gamut with the exception of some area of blue & green (figures 14 and 15), while NTSC1953 basically covers most of Pointers Gamut with the exception of some area of red and purple (figures 16 and 17).

Only 90.1% of NTSC is covered by DCI-P3.

If you want to see color gamut graph comparisons between DCI-P3 and other gamuts you should check out:
http://www.noteloop.com/kit/display/wide-gamut/dolby-prm-4200-monitor/

As the PRM-4200 has 100% DCI-P3 coverage.
Quote:
Regarding DCI-P3, the best informed speculation I have found indicates that it will be used as the color gamut for 4k Blu-ray.

4k 4:2:2 10-bit DCI-P3 HVEC would a great standard for 4k Blu-Ray. Here's hoping.
Quote:
From the list of monitors you provided a link to, 80% of rec.2020 seems to be about the state-of-the-art for right now

Excluding the $40,000 PRM-4200, the current state of the art is 97.8% as far as I know is:
http://www.noteloop.com/kit/display/wide-gamut/hp-dreamcolor-lp2480zx/

This will be met or surpassed by the Panasonic AX800 in May which is supposed to support 98% DCI-P3 at 4k resolution.

Full 100% DCI-P3 is achievable, Nanosys/3M QDEF can do it. And QD Vision's whitepaper seems to imply that Color IQ can do it too. Maybe we'll see such displays at the end of the year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLPsajeeth  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24454293

Quote:
That site shows how close NTSC 1958 is to DCI-P3. Using The Pointers Gamut as a common reference, you can see that DCI P3 basically covers most of The Pointers Gamut with the exception of some area of blue & green (figures 14 and 15), while NTSC1953 basically covers most of Pointers Gamut with the exception of some area of red and purple (figures 16 and 17).

Only 90.1% of NTSC is covered by DCI-P3.

Yes, in terms of actual coverage, I had understood that. It seems that NTSC 1958 is being used as a specification for the size of a color space, rather than a specification of the precise location (in terms of which specific colors it covers) of the color space.


This site: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/content/pointers_gamut.htm#_Toc379132087

shows that in terms of colorspace size, NTSC 1958 is 109.48% as large as DCI-P3 (meaning 100% NTSC is a larger colorspace than DCI-P3), so if an LCD panels is specified as >100% NTSC it means it has a color gamut larger than NTSC 1953 which means it has a color gamut that is at least 10% larger than DCI-P3.


That was the basis of my comment - a hope that >100% NTSC panels have their color spaces located to cover most or all of the colorspace of DCE-P3 (coverage now, rather than just size)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLPsajeeth  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24454293

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsinger 

Regarding DCI-P3, the best informed speculation I have found indicates that it will be used as the color gamut for 4k Blu-ray.

4k 4:2:2 10-bit DCI-P3 HVEC would a great standard for 4k Blu-Ray. Here's hoping.

Second that



Quote:
Originally Posted by NLPsajeeth  /t/1521141/2014-ntsc-100-high-color-gamut-panels-using-red-phospher#post_24454293

Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd 

From the list of monitors you provided a link to, 80% of rec.2020 seems to be about the state-of-the-art for right now

The Panasonic AX800 in May is supposed to support 98% DCI-P3 at 4k resolution.

Full 100% DCI-P3 is achievable, Nanosys/3M QDEF can do it. And QD Vision's whitepaper seems to imply that Color IQ can do it too. Maybe we'll see such displays at the end of the year.

I see that on Panasonic's website for the AX800: http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-58AX800U
•DCI 98% Color


Since it seems that Panasonic and Toshiba are both receiving wide-color-gamut 4K panels from the same supplier (innolux), hopefully the Toshiba Radiance panels will also support DCI 98% color:
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20130820PD214.html

The article refers to "color saturation as high as NTSC 100%", but hopefully you have helped us to understand that it more precisely corresponds to 'DCI 98% color'.


And for the Sony 950B and the Vizio Reference Series, well need to wait to see what specs they issue when the sets come out (or for independent testing), but hopefully DCI-P3 is emerging as the precise specification everyone will be aiming for (at least this year) and we can start to compare apples to apples...
 

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Yea...Panasonic also claimed the ZT60 met the 98% DCI color space specification yet it was actually 72% . Granted, the set is obviously not UHD, but it should serve as a reminder that marketing misfits still regularly bend the truth.
 
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