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Yes, by stutter, I mean choppiness in motion instead of smoothness, especially evident in panning scenes with low frame rate (movies) 24 fps content. I'm not particularly sensitive to judder from 3:2 pulldown, but I am sensitive (as are OLEDs due to their fast pixel response time and each frame remaining on screen longer) to motion stutter with low frame rate content.

So, to summarize what I'm seeing with my streaming device, the Fire TV Stick 4K:

With resolution set to 2160p 60 Hz = relatively smooth motion and panning shots, regardless of app/content.

With resolution set to 2160p 24 Hz (hidden menu) = stuttering motion and panning shots with movies/menus (not tested with all types of content). This mode allows displaying DV content but with much more visible stutter.

So, if motion on the streaming device appears smoother when set to 60 Hz with movies (24 fps) than when set to 24 Hz, wouldn't that also apply to the blu-ray player? With the blu-ray player, I'm not sure I see a difference between 24 vs 60 Hz output.
No, like I said if you're forcing 24hz when the apps aren't wanting to output that, then you have some really janky conversions happening that can significantly screw up the motion of the video.

Blu-ray players on the other hand are designed to output 24hz at the correct frame cadence, so it wouldn't have that problem. Now, suddenly getting proper, pure 24fps display without any frame blending or shutter strobing can feel somewhat weird to some people who are used to other kinds of displays at first, but much like properly calibrating a display, once you get used to it you'll notice certain qualities about correct motion that you'll never want to watch anything any other way.

Whenever I connect a device now that doesn't do proper 24hz I have a harder time watching it, like my Chromecast for example. Sometimes I turn de-judder to 1 on devices like that to eliminate that judder without significantly adding increased frame rate interpolation effects.

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I understand the thing about app support for 24 Hz vs 60 Hz. The way I understand "judder" is a kind of alternating speed of motion. It's not a consistently timed jerkiness, as is the case with low frame rate stutter. What I'm seeing is a consistently timed jerkiness on panning shots when FTVS4K is set to 24 Hz via the secret menu.

With that said, when I set my FTVS4K to 24 Hz via the secret menu, the stutter is immediately noticeable simply just navigating the device's menus. And that stutter continues on to anything I watch, regardless of app. Change it to 60 Hz, which then requires proper 3:2 pulldown for 24 fps movies to avoid judder, and all is smooth. Perhaps judder is still there at 60 Hz, as the B6 has been reported to have issues displaying 24 Hz content over 60 Hz signal, judder-free. But if it's there, it doesn't bother me. Again, I have no complaints with 60 Hz output on the FTVS4K.

As far as stutter goes, OLEDs score consistenly poor in this metric, according to Rtings. You may claim that it's the way motion is intended to be watched, and while it technically, may be more accurate, it certainly is less pleasant with 24 fps material. Stutter of TVs
 

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I understand the thing about app support for 24 Hz vs 60 Hz. The way I understand "judder" is a kind of alternating speed of motion. It's not a consistently timed jerkiness, as is the case with low frame rate stutter. What I'm seeing is a consistently timed jerkiness on panning shots when FTVS4K is set to 24 Hz via the secret menu.

With that said, when I set my FTVS4K to 24 Hz via the secret menu, the stutter is immediately noticeable simply just navigating the device's menus. And that stutter continues on to anything I watch, regardless of app. Change it to 60 Hz, which then requires proper 3:2 pulldown for 24 fps movies to avoid judder, and all is smooth. Perhaps judder is still there at 60 Hz, as the B6 has been reported to have issues displaying 24 Hz content over 60 Hz signal, judder-free. But if it's there, it doesn't bother me. Again, I have no complaints with 60 Hz output on the FTVS4K.

As far as stutter goes, OLEDs score consistenly poor in this metric, according to Rtings. You may claim that it's the way motion is intended to be watched, and while it technically, may be more accurate, it certainly is less pleasant with 24 fps material. Stutter of TVs
It sounds to me like you're just more familiar with 3:2 pulldown motion perhaps? These displays do a flawless job displaying proper 24hz content, but suddenly shifting from 3:2 to correct 24hz can make things feel weird at first if you're not used to it. With other displays, there are other things getting in the way of a pure 24p presentation, like the frame blending of LCDs or the refresh blanking of plasmas, so with those you don't get a truly pure 24p experience either. With these OLEDs you get instantaneous frame changed at the exact correct cadence. If content has a low shutter speed, the sharpness of this instantaneous frame change can become initially pretty noticeable on pans, but it's more accurate to the intended cadence of the film content.

Of course when forcing 24hz you'll see a lower frame rate in the menus, as those likely operated at 60fps or 30fps, so forcing them to 24hz will lower the frame rate of those menus. However, if the content is being displayed correctly (big if), you're not seeing a lower frame rate, just a more consistent one. Based on your description, it's likely the content is not being displayed correctly when you force 24hz.

Judder is a consistent pattern of alternating frame pacing. So even though every other frame is displayed at a different cadence, the pattern itself is completely consistent. That's why most people can get used to 3:2 judder just fine, as you appear to be. Because the pattern is consistent and predictable. However, despite being a consistent pattern, compared to proper 24p playback, it gives off a sensation of a sort of lag to the frames. Some frames display faster and some slower. Basically you are rapidly switching between 20fps and 30fps. It's just so rapid that you don't notice it consciously. So while this is a consistent pattern, your brain can feel that the motion isn't quite right. And it's noticeable especially during pans.

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However, if the content is being displayed correctly (big if), you're not seeing a lower frame rate, just a more consistent one. Based on your description, it's likely the content is not being displayed correctly when you force 24hz.
Based on what description? What specifically did I say that makes you think that what I'm seeing is judder and not stutter when forcing 24 Hz.
Judder is a consistent pattern of alternating frame pacing. So even though every other frame is displayed at a different cadence, the pattern itself is completely consistent. That's why most people can get used to 3:2 judder just fine, as you appear to be. Because the pattern is consistent and predictable. However, despite being a consistent pattern, compared to proper 24p playback, it gives off a sensation of a sort of lag to the frames. Some frames display faster and some slower. Basically you are rapidly switching between 20fps and 30fps. It's just so rapid that you don't notice it consciously. So while this is a consistent pattern, your brain can feel that the motion isn't quite right. And it's noticeable especially during pans.
The pattern is consistent, yes, but the timing is inconsistent. Meaning 3 then 2 then 3 then 2. Fast-slow-fast-slow. Yes, that's judder. You say it's so rapid that I don't notice it consciously. Perhaps. But stutter can be rapid and unnoticeable too, at 60 Hz. But at 24 Hz output, stutter will be more pronounced, since each frame is held on screen longer.
 

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Based on what description? What specifically did I say that makes you think that what I'm seeing is judder and not stutter when forcing 24 Hz.
I'm saying it could be either or both, both of which would be caused by the 24Hz forced refresh not transmitting the original 24p content correctly. Or it could simply be you being used to 3:2 pulldown.

The pattern is consistent, yes, but the timing is inconsistent. Meaning 3 then 2 then 3 then 2. Fast-slow-fast-slow. Yes, that's judder. You say it's so rapid that I don't notice it consciously. Perhaps. But stutter can be rapid and unnoticeable too, at 60 Hz. But at 24 Hz output, stutter will be more pronounced, since each frame is held on screen longer.
See, I don't see that as a problem. That's the frame displaying on screen for the correct amount of time. A 24fps film SHOULD have each frame display on screen for 42ms each, which is exactly what's happening here. Some screens do a black frame insertion or screen blank which will end up displaying the frame on screen for half that time. I have no idea why anybody would think this looks better. The time between frames is still exactly the same. You're just seeing the frame for less time. In my opinion, video should feel like a constant stream, not a flickering one, so the way our OLEDs do it makes more sense to me. LCDs have frame blending (also sometimes referred to incorrectly as motion blur). This means one frame doesn't instantaneously switch to another, but you have a blend as the LCD panel changes its pixel colors. While this can be a more subtle transition between frames, and perhaps even more natural to the way our eyes work, you're seeing less "pure" frames, as those frames were filmed. So I don't like that, as I feel it's a distortion of the original image.

When you use 3:2 pulldown, what you get is alternating between 33ms and 50ms. So half of the frames appear on screen for less time than proper 24p, but half of them also appear on screen for more time. Perhaps half of those frames have less "stutter", and somehow your brain tunes more into the pacing of those particular shorter frames, giving you the sensation of less "stutter"? I don't know, but the inconsistent frame pacing to me is a MUCH larger issue, than "stutter", which I consider to be a non issue at all. Stutter, I think, is just seeing the frames correctly, and instantaneously, as they were meant to be seen, and people just aren't always used to that instantaneous frame switching, but I always recommend that you keep watching content like that for a while because once you get used to it, it is a much better way to watch 24p content than 3:2 judder or temporal interpolation.
 

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Like, I said, it may be technically more "correct" but I think most people will agree that seeing more pronounced choppiness (stutter) in motion is not desired. I see no problem with Rtings having a "stutter" category for their TVs that measures pixel response and frame hold times and rates them accordingly. I realize that the fault lies in the low frame rates of the content, but then you have purists that believe movies should continue to be shot with low frame rates. Why? So that people can witness choppy motion? The best viewing experience comes from seeing on screen what we would see in real life. I don't see stutter in real life.
 

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Like, I said, it may be technically more "correct" but I think most people will agree that seeing more pronounced choppiness (stutter) in motion is not desired. I see no problem with Rtings having a "stutter" category for their TVs that measures pixel response and frame hold times and rates them accordingly. I realize that the fault lies in the low frame rates of the content, but then you have purists that believe movies should continue to be shot with low frame rates. Why? So that people can witness choppy motion? The best viewing experience comes from seeing on screen what we would see in real life. I don't see stutter in real life.
I don't think it's any more pronounced it's just different. Half of the frames in 3:2 pulldown will actually display for longer than 24hz mode, so theoretically, those frames would be more "pronounced". I have no idea why you apparently perceive less "stutter" with 3:2 pulldown on, because there's no measurable reason for that, but I don't agree that most people would have the same experience.

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What do you think of this post? 2016 LG OLEDs - G6, E6, C6, and B6 How can a disc player control the tonemapping of the 2016 E6 if it ignores HDR10 metadata?
What the player is doing there is applying its own tonemapping curve, modifying the original YCbCr code values in the source video content before sending it to your display. Think of it like how players can have their own brightness/contrast settings or other video signal manipulation controls. This is just a new form of that. Panasonic realized that some TVs do a poor job at tonemapping, and they offered an alternative solution. So the raw video data is modified. The player reads the metadata, instead of the TV, and the player modifies this using its own mathematical calculations on the video signal, and then it outputs a new 1000nit HDR signal. So for example, if a movie's peak highlight was 6000 nits, that's code 893. This player would apply a new curve that preserves shadows while bringing highlights down so the new peak highlight code is 1000 nits, or code 723. So once the player sends the signal out, the TV reads code 723 as 1000 nits and applies its own tonemapping. In our case, 1000 nits gets tonemapped to about 690 nits. So really you're getting two tonemapping curves overlapping each other.

In some ways, this is a cool idea. One problem I have with it though is that these LG TVs can actually display unclipped highlight detail above 1000 nits. Technically speaking, the curve LG uses retains highlight detail up to 4000 nits, although detail between 1000 and 4000 nits is still crushed down into a space of about 5 nits. That being said, the tonemapping curve is so distorted in those levels, that you definitely will see better detail definition if you limit the signal to 1000 nits. The only problem is you're also limiting the peak luminance of the highlights to 5 nits below the maximum capability of the set. I suppose for most, that's not a significant loss in highlight intensity, so it's worth it. Although, any signal manipulation can potentially lead to rounding errors which cause banding, so that could be a concern unless the player does a really high quality sample conversion, or if it's outputting at higher than 10 bits so your TV can handle the sampling.

When previewing content I'm working on in HDR for my youtube channel, I will occasionally create my own tonemapping curve that sort of reverse engineers the TV's curve before applying my own tonemapping to the signal. Like, I have videos I've worked on that have 10,000 nit highlights. Our TVs will clip anything above 4000 nits, but if you apply a custom tonemapping curve to the source data before sending it to the TV, you can retain that detail. Although I do it in somewhat more of an intelligent way than the Panasonic, since I'm aware of what tonemapping curve the TV will then apply to my signal after I send it out, and I'm also aware more of the average APL and average highlights, rather than just relying on MaxFALL and MaxCLL, which have shortcomings of their own.

Overall I'd probably say the Dolby Vision conversion method is better than a "one size fits all" Panasonic option to tonemap everything to the 1000 nit level, but it's a pretty good second option, especially with this TV. It would also work really well with my Sony TV that does a flat clip at 1000 nits.
 

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Thanks! That's a very good explanation. So, basically the Panasonic player is manipulating the video signal before it's sent to the TV. The TV still applies its own tonemapping, but to a different set of values than the original, unaltered HDR10 signal, resulting in a different (better/worse being subjective) image.
 

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The Panny is doing the bulk of the tone mapping before it gets to the E6. The E6 then has to apply little or no tone mapping to what it receives. The 9000 is basically doing all the work so the 2016 OLEDs do not have to. It's not any different than the OPPO 203 having a player led DV mode to do the tone mapping for tv's such as the older Sonys that could not do it properly, like the Z9D. BTW, forcing the OPPO 203 to play all HDR10 movies in DV is not a good solution. There are times when the image is horrible compared to watching it in native HDR10. Plus the 2016 OLEDs do crush near blacks in DV. Generally 1 to 1.5% and lower is crushed using a DV pluge pattern. You can raise brightness a click to see 0.5 to 1.5% but then the blacks glow. There is no way to fix that.
 

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I thought that the TV applies its tonemapping curve to whatever signal it receives. I don't think it can apply little or no tonemapping.
It the tone mapping the Panny sends is accurate there may be little effect the tone mapping on the E6 has compared to receiving a raw HDR10 signal.
 

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Thanks! That's a very good explanation. So, basically the Panasonic player is manipulating the video signal before it's sent to the TV. The TV still applies its own tonemapping, but to a different set of values than the original, unaltered HDR10 signal, resulting in a different (better/worse being subjective) image.
Exactly
I thought that the TV applies its tonemapping curve to whatever signal it receives. I don't think it can apply little or no tonemapping.
This is correct. The OLED will always apply the same tonemapping curve no matter what signal it gets, even if that signal already includes its own tonemapping.
It the tone mapping the Panny sends is accurate there may be little effect the tone mapping on the E6 has compared to receiving a raw HDR10 signal.
The Panasonic player isn't adjusting its tonemapping based on the TV's tonemapping curve, because it's a preset that can work for multiple TVs, which all handle tonemapping differently. It basically assumes the TV will handle everything up to 1000 nits fairly linearly. This isn't particularly true (it's linear more to about 400-500 nits), but it's still close enough that it still looks good.

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i have a 2016 55 B6. Recently LG replaced the panel for free due to burn in. Now a new issue has risen. On native apps, I get random black quick second flashes on netflix youtube youtube TV. Anyone else know a dix or experience same thing? It seems to only happen on the apps, as I do not experience this on xbox or any hdmi source.
 

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i have a 2016 55 B6. Recently LG replaced the panel for free due to burn in. Now a new issue has risen. On native apps, I get random black quick second flashes on netflix youtube youtube TV. Anyone else know a dix or experience same thing? It seems to only happen on the apps, as I do not experience this on xbox or any hdmi source.
I just had my 55 B6 panel replaced for free as well a couple of weeks ago, but have not used the native apps yet (almost always use the AppleTV 4k). I will try to take a look at them this weekend and report back.
 

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Hello, after almost 4 years of flawless service a strange damaged area has appeared on the panel.
As you can see (ignore the moire effect of the phone camera) the damaged rectangle appears different on different backgrounds: washed out with a dark cluster on the sky photo, solid blue on the menu.
It almost seems like a chip on the back panel over-heated and damaged the front, but I'm not really sure.
Any Idea of what may have caused this? Somebody else exprienced this?

Already tried OLED "Clear Panel Noise" a couple of times but no joy :(

Thanks!
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Looks like it is time to buy a new display.
 
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