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Clearly, my report is from what we call the "casual observers" point of view, meaning what does the average and or discerning consumer or enthusiast see when looking at content at the end of the day with this technology. :)

That's exactly the pov I'm looking for
 

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John, if by "backup process" you mean a copy of the LUT that is created, CalMAN does that already, at least when working with external LUT boxes. If you mean a backup of the existing pre-calibration settings in the TV, no. Not even when working with DDC-only sets like the Samsungs.
As John has already clarified, end-customers need to be able to re-load 3D and 1D LUT tables after the calibrator has gone home...
 

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Right so since you can't give the calibration settings to a customer like you can with the regular user controls, i mean being able to Auto-calibrate a set for a customer and store the calibration on a thumb drive that is encrypted so they can recover the calibration if the set was intentionally or un-intentionally set to factory default.

The problem is, most of the time, if you call LG support and they are unsure of the state of the TV, they will want to reset it to factory default and troubleshoot from there. Once that's done your autocal is gone.
Got it. AFAIK, that's never been available. With the Samsung KS, at least, the program doesn't seem to be able to read the state of the set's DDC controls on connecting with it. Instead, you must click the reset radio button to set the DDC controls to defaults for CalMAN to use. I think what may be happening during the calibration is that the program is making the changes you see on screen to its own default map in memory and then writing them out to the set rather than doing read-write cycles directly from and to the display's DDC controls. Perhaps a DDC dump isn't currently supported in hardware.
 

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@bobof check these two pdf documents attached to the previous post. There are measurements of all four modes (hand/irp/lightning/matrix).

I suggest it could be used for post production because it's normal for me to spend 6+ hours on one display in studio to make f.eg. 10 000 points IRP LUT. I can cal other displays in the facility during the process. And one picture mode (Rec 709 or DCI) is usually enought. Typical customer wants to have day / night / HDR modes). That would last forever.

I followed everything that was suggested in Calman workflow, so 30/5 pattern insertion during greyscale and 10/5 during 3D LUT. I know these displays are instable as hell. There are ways to deal with it though. I did some calibrations for movie studios before, to make the display consumer reference, and match studio grade OLED as good as possible. It worked fine, at least the colorist was satisfied. Here's drift chart of OLED E7 i calibrated for German studio:



The pdf report of this cal is attached below. It looks better than IRP in C8 and was calibrated faster. It's of course different case. I used LightSpace and AJA LUT-Box. There is minor oversaturation of cyan colors, but only the dark ones. Red's are on thei'r places and there is no banding. It matched PVM-A250 very well.

My solution to overcome drift (using LightSpace) is to put the display into PC mode, and drive it native resolution (3840x2160p60, RGB) then you can measure with 0 extra delay. I also used drift compensation (1 white frame every 100 patches). Newest LightSpace releases have option to insert black frame to cool the display down. I haven't tried that yet. Calman is different beast and has other options. I have no idea which one is better since Calman can't plot drift chart. I can only evaluate calibration results.



Like i said above, i followed Calman's rules for pattern insertions (30/5 for gs, 10/5 for 3d lut). I haven't tested irp withe less points yet. That's another step ;) I tested 42p Greyscale though! Didn't bring anything better for me. In fact the first 3D LUT i did was IRP with 3500 points and 42p GS. It had pretty ugly banding in 0 - 10% area! I don't have report file for it unfortunately...
Would you mind explaining the axis (plural) of your 'drift graph' - is it time (in hours) for the X-axis and dE or delta-luminance for the Y-axis?
 

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Got it. AFAIK, that's never been available. With the Samsung KS, at least, the program doesn't seem to be able to read the state of the set's DDC controls on connecting with it. Instead, you must click the reset radio button to set the DDC controls to defaults for CalMAN to use. I think what may be happening during the calibration is that the program is making the changes you see on screen to its own default map in memory and then writing them out to the set rather than doing read-write cycles directly from and to the display's DDC controls. Perhaps a DDC dump isn't currently supported in hardware.


The 2016 Samsung TVs do not support read commands on its API. So the only way we know what the TV is configured as is if we do a full reset. Or else we have no clue what the settings are set to.
 

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As John has already clarified, end-customers need to be able to re-load 3D and 1D LUT tables after the calibrator has gone home...
The 1D and 3D LUTs in the Radiance processors are arrived at by two different means (1D direct via 21-point DDC, 3D calculated from display profiling after the 1D LUT is completed). Not having done an autocal on an '18 LG OLED myself to know for sure, if the LGs follow the same methodology, backup could be difficult. As I already mentioned, CalMAN maintains a copy of the LUT in the case of the Radiance. Whether or not such a backup copy could be reloaded by the owner direct via USB is another kettle of fish.
 

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The 1D and 3D LUTs in the Radiance processors are arrived at by two different means (1D direct via 21-point DDC, 3D calculated from display profiling after the 1D LUT is completed). Not having done an autocal on an '18 LG OLED myself to know for sure, if the LGs follow the same methodology, backup could be difficult. As I already mentioned, CalMAN maintains a copy of the LUT in the case of the Radiance. Whether or not such a backup copy could be reloaded by the owner direct via USB is another kettle of fish.
Calman needs to provide a free LUT download app so that the customer can download the backup when needed. Ideally, this autoplays from a thumb drive, but at a minimum, it needs to run from a PC...
 

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^^^
No i don't but as i explained to D-Nice and Tyler, after i calibrated my C8 with Autocal with 42pt and Lightening LUT, in viewing content, to my eyes which are good but not those "magic" ones, the gray scale, colors, skin tones, etc, look essentially the same as my A1E that i calibrated manually and has a very good CMS.

Normally when you compare any two calibrated sets side by side sometimes you can see the secondaries like Cyan and or Magenta having issues and be different but the only thing i can see when looking very hard are some shades of Blue being very slightly different and that may be the Sony since you can't adjust the CMS.

That said, if we had a backup process, in my opinion, autocal is probably good enough for a consumer set calibration since if you set it up and run it properly, you will get pretty consistent results once you get experienced with it. The pro in my opinion is the 42 pt grayscale calibration which you can't do manually without Autocal and or the DDC controls, but I agree with some that you can probably do the same or better calibration manually if you are experienced. It's really a toss up if you look at it soley for a consumer calibration and you are not going to stress over every minute detail that may or may not be visible in content.

The other thing that's very apparent, if you are a newbie and or a home enthusiast and have all of the equipment and don't want to spend endless hours experimenting and calibrating your set, Autocal, once you understand how to set it up and run it, will make it very easy to "essentially" get "professional" or near "professional" results. Not refernce monitor or other tweaks that an experienced Pro might implement when calibrating to get an even a better result.

Another thing that came to mind, since autocal calibrates more of the lower IRE's, while a meter like a Klein and or other professional meter will give your superior results, i'm not sure that a meter like a C6 or other types of meters in that price range will do the same. Someone will have to test this as well. For sure it will take longer with a less capable meter but the Klein is the "king" of low light level calibration which may be another reason why the Autocal grayscale calibration looks so good to me.
Again i don't want to get into an arguement, and i don't believe Autocal replaces the experience Pro for many reasons, but these are my opinions based on my testing and what i observed.

Here are a couple of screen shots showing what i mean. Top is my A1E bottom is my Autocaled C8 with 1080P BlueRay content. I used my iPhone camera so some of the detail is lost but the colors and grayscale looks like what i saw by eye. If you zoom in and look closely you will see the Sony has a sharper image and more detail, again in person this is very noticeable vs the iPhone images below.
I am no expert in your field (calibrator) whatsoever, but in all of the screenshots you posted, I preferred the bottom TV (C8) the best even though you stated the top TV (A1E) was sharper. I have no dog in the hunt yet but I am seriously considering purchasing the C8. Or maybe I should spring for LASIK (again)???
 

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Calman needs to provide a free LUT download app so that the customer can download the backup when needed. Ideally, this autoplays from a thumb drive, but at a minimum, it needs to run from a PC...
No other calibration software package that I'm aware of, free or commercial, provides such capability, and I've used several. I believe the eeColor box has its own LUT upload program, but that's about it.
 

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No other calibration software package that I'm aware of, free or commercial, provides such capability, and I've used several. I believe the eeColor box has its own LUT upload program, but that's about it.
Understand, but for typical 21-pt & CMS controls, it is relatively easy to copy setting and re-enter if/when needed.

So in case an owner had a problem requiring factory reset after spending $$$s on professional calibration, thrre was a pathway to revovering that calibration investment.

Knowing that there is no way to recover the calibration if it is ever lost by a factory reset (or whatever) is going to make for some very unhappy customers.

eeColor is a different animal. In addition to a factory reset of the TV having no impact on eeColor LUT calibration, the number of videophiles owning an eeColor is a tiny % of those investing in calibration (a niche of a niche ;)).

Few C8 owners wanting calibration will do so using 3D-LUT if Calman provides no back-up/reload utility...
 

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Understand, but for typical 21-pt & CMS controls, it is relatively easy to copy setting and re-enter if/when needed.

So in case an owner had a problem requiring factory reset after spending $$$s on professional calibration, thrre was a pathway to revovering that calibration investment.

Knowing that there is no way to recover the calibration if it is ever lost by a factory reset (or whatever) is going to make for some very unhappy customers.

eeColor is a different animal. In addition to a factory reset of the TV having no impact on eeColor LUT calibration, the number of videophiles owning an eeColor is a tiny % of those investing in calibration (a niche of a niche ;)).

Few C8 owners wanting calibration will do so using 3D-LUT if Calman provides no back-up/reload utility...
Until LG and Spectracal don't bring a solution to recovery the internal 3DLUT calibration, I think a professional calibration should be the classic one by manual for home enthusiast. This is because a factory reset could happen and it can be dangerous and provoque the lost of all.
 

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Until LG and Spectracal don't bring a solution to recovery the internal 3DLUT calibration, I think a professional calibration should be the classic one by manual for home enthusiast. This is because a factory reset could happen and it can be dangerous and provoque the lost of all.
1. Be very careful if you have a service report, it is easier than not to reset the panel.
2. The lack of backup/restore is a problem for calibration service with LG 3D LUT.
3. If you are calibrating with your own gear, it can be redone so it's not a big deal.


- Rich
 

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Discussion Starter #273
Right so just to be clear it's the 1D LUT (grayscale) And the 3D LUT (CMS) that need a backup for each PM that you Auto calibrate.

Also although Tyler is indicating that this process was for LG's production folks, it could become a tool to improve Consumer calibration beyond what you can do manually potentially leading to more business for Portrait?
 

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Right so just to be clear it's the 1D LUT (grayscale) And the 3D LUT (CMS) that need a backup for each PM that you Auto calibrate.

Also although Tyler is indicating that this process was for LG's production folks, it could become a tool to improve Consumer calibration beyond what you can do manually potentially leading to more business for Portrait?
I'm not understanding - can you explain? What 'process'? And what do LG's production folks get out of it?

If you are referring to Calman's process for Auto-calibrating LG's 1D and 3D LUTs, I may undestand what you mean by 'it could become a tool to improve Consumer calibration beyond what you can do manually' but if you are also implying that DIY consumers don't need backup because they can always repeat Autocal, then I'm confused.

Without backup/restore, what enthusiast would pay for professional calibration with Autocal?

Or perhaps you mean none would, so:

-professional calibration sticks to classic 21-pt/CMS controls (no backup needed)
-DIY calibrators take advantage of Autocal (more business for Portrait and no backup needed)
-Portrait never needs to deliver a backup utility since Autocal is aimed at DIY calibrators and not professional calibrators

Is that what you meant?
 

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Discussion Starter #275 (Edited)
Sorry for all of the confusion.
I thought i "read" or "gathered" from the converstaions that the 1D and 3D LUTs were opened on the LG's so their production folks could use Calman's Autocal software to calibrate their sets beyond what can be done with the traditional user controls. My understanding is if you do the large 3D LUT, although not perfect as D-Nice has indicated, and if you are able to let it run for however long it takes, that you will get better results, maybe close to a reference monitor, (i'm not an expert here so we will have to wait for D-Nice to weigh in on this), than via a manual calibration with the traditional user controls. My understanding is that Portrait and LG decided to also allow consumers to use the interface via Calman's Autocal as well.

That said, I believe Portrait needs to have some sort of Autocal backup and recovery procedure for home users, Enthusiasts, Pro's, or whomever wants to use Autocal, so in the event the set was reset to factory settings, for any reason, you would have a way to restore the picture modes that you calibrated with Autocal. As i stated in one of my previous posts here, when i was testing Autocal, i reset my C8 to factory settings and all my picture modes whether calibrated with Autocal or manually were reset. I took scans of a couple of picture modes verifying they were reset to how the set came from the factory.

I still believe, after doing a lot of testing with Autocal, that although the 3D LUT calculation might not be perfect, the fact that you can do a more indepth 42pt grayscale calibration either using the Autocal program or via the DDC controls manually is an improvement to what the user controls allow you to do manually for home enthusiasts, Pro's or anyone who wants to use Autocal for calibration.

Tyler indicated that they were working with LG on this so i hope at some point we see a backup and recovery process for Autocal.

I hope this clears up the reasoning behind needing some sort of secure backup procedure for Autocal, at least from my POV. :)
 

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@jrref did you calibrated a night mode as well? How did the LG perform because usually I aim for 100-120 nits
 

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Sorry for all of the confusion.
I thought i "read" or "gathered" from the converstaions that the 1D and 3D LUTs were opened on the LG's so their production folks could use Calman's Autocal software to calibrate their sets beyond what can be done with the traditional user controls. My understanding is if you do the large 3D LUT, although not perfect as D-Nice has indicated, and if you are able to let it run for however long it takes, that you will get better results, maybe close to a reference monitor, (i'm not an expert here so we will have to wait for D-Nice to weigh in on this), than via a manual calibration with the traditional user controls. My understanding is that Portrait and LG decided to also allow consumers to use the interface via Calman's Autocal as well.

That said, I believe Portrait needs to have some sort of Autocal backup and recovery procedure for home users, Enthusiasts, Pro's, or whomever wants to use Autocal, so in the event the set was reset to factory settings, for any reason, you would have a way to restore the picture modes that you calibrated with Autocal. As i stated in one of my previous posts here, when i was testing Autocal, i reset my C8 to factory settings and all my picture modes whether calibrated with Autocal or manually were reset. I took scans of a couple of picture modes verifying they were reset to how the set came from the factory.

I still believe, after doing a lot of testing with Autocal, that although the 3D LUT calculation might not be perfect, the fact that you can do a more indepth 42pt grayscale calibration either using the Autocal program or via the DDC controls manually is an improvement to what the user controls allow you to do manually for home enthusiasts, Pro's or anyone who wants to use Autocal for calibration.

Tyler indicated that they were working with LG on this so i hope at some point we see a backup and recovery process for Autocal.

I hope this clears up the reasoning behind needing some sort of secure backup procedure for Autocal, at least from my POV. :)
The "production folks" Tyler spoke of were not at LG, but at post-production houses using LG OLED sets as reference monitors. Here is his original post:

Keep in mind that the target audience for most of these calibration features was Hollywood and post production facilities. LG wanted to give the same access to consumers as well. But fundamentally the LG implementation was designed around Hollywood’s needs.
 

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The 2016 Samsung TVs do not support read commands on its API. So the only way we know what the TV is configured as is if we do a full reset. Or else we have no clue what the settings are set to.
Tyler, any chance to have access to the 2017 LG Oled like you did for Samsung 2015 and 2016?
 

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Discussion Starter #279
@jrref did you calibrated a night mode as well? How did the LG perform because usually I aim for 100-120 nits
I didn't but in speaking with D-Nice, 100-150 nits is the luminance levels he was "focusing" on and he indicated similar if not better results than what i was seeing. You need to remember that higher luminance levels make the OLED panel more unstable and harder to calibrate. :)
 

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The "production folks" Tyler spoke of were not at LG, but at post-production houses using LG OLED sets as reference monitors. Here is his original post:

Keep in mind that the target audience for most of these calibration features was Hollywood and post production facilities. LG wanted to give the same access to consumers as well. But fundamentally the LG implementation was designed around Hollywood’s needs.

Backup is good for all uses. This seems like it could be a Calman feature that does not require LG support.


- Rich
 
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