AVS Forum banner

141 - 160 of 1130 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,074 Posts
FYI,
You must have a very unique panel because your Bias adjustments for the 2pt calibration seem way off. I never have had to adjust them more than a couple of clicks + or -. Your adjustments are huge and when you have to make large adjustments like that i'm always suspicious that there you have a panel that's out of spec or something is wrong with your calibration setup. You said you calibrating with Local Dimming set to High? You should be calibrating with it OFF then when you adjust it to Low, Medium or High, the set will make the correct offsets. This is from Sony.
It seems to be pretty evenly split between people who find the calibrations amazing, or have 2 point issues with them, such as reddish hue. I think that may be a panel variation on larger size panels, variance from mine, not variance from"correct". More reason to push people to spend the $100-150USD on a meter for the free HCFR software. :)

As for calibrating with local dimming off...if you calibrate with local dimming off, you end up with a few issues if you plan to watch the TV with local dimming on. Firstly, if you calibrate for black compensated 2.2 gamma, meaning your gamma curve starts at your TV's actual black level reading, and not absolute 0.00000cd/m like an OLED, then when you turn on local dimming, your shadows will all DARKEN, and you would get black crush. This can also be seen on the RGB levels, as when I calibrate LD off, then turn LD on and take another sweep, my RGB 's not only all fall below the 100% line on HCFR, they do so in an inconsistent and awkward way. Now this may not be visible to most people, but it's definitely there, so I calibrate how I watch. Other things that will alter a calibration include BFI, or motion clearness settings. Not sure why, but they mess with the shadows as well.

I've also been playing around with HDR10 and HCFR, but I am seeing things that mean I don't know how to take HDR readings, or that the RGB is screwed up massively 10-50% when HDR10 is active. Sony says the gamma tracks up to HDR from SDR, but I am not seeing this so far.

Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
It seems to be pretty evenly split between people who find the calibrations amazing, or have 2 point issues with them, such as reddish hue. I think that may be a panel variation on larger size panels, variance from mine, not variance from"correct". More reason to push people to spend the $100-150USD on a meter for the free HCFR software. :)

As for calibrating with local dimming off...if you calibrate with local dimming off, you end up with a few issues if you plan to watch the TV with local dimming on. Firstly, if you calibrate for black compensated 2.2 gamma, meaning your gamma curve starts at your TV's actual black level reading, and not absolute 0.00000cd/m like an OLED, then when you turn on local dimming, your shadows will all DARKEN, and you would get black crush. This can also be seen on the RGB levels, as when I calibrate LD off, then turn LD on and take another sweep, my RGB 's not only all fall below the 100% line on HCFR, they do so in an inconsistent and awkward way. Now this may not be visible to most people, but it's definitely there, so I calibrate how I watch. Other things that will alter a calibration include BFI, or motion clearness settings. Not sure why, but they mess with the shadows as well.

I've also been playing around with HDR10 and HCFR, but I am seeing things that mean I don't know how to take HDR readings, or that the RGB is screwed up massively 10-50% when HDR10 is active. Sony says the gamma tracks up to HDR from SDR, but I am not seeing this so far.

Paul

Paul i have found X-Rite ColorMunki Display for 70 euro less.What is your opinion about this one?Also i read somewhere that they get useless/inaccurate after some years cause the inside filters have a certain lifespan,is this true?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,074 Posts
The Xrite website says the Monkey is the same meter as the i1D3, only the i1D3 comes with the iProfiler software, the Monkey does not. If you need to calibrate your Windows laptop or Macbook, then get the i1D3. If you just need a meter for HCFR, the Monkey should be perfectly capable at the lower price.

Not sure how long meters last.

Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
76 Posts
The Xrite website says the Monkey is the same meter as the i1D3, only the i1D3 comes with the iProfiler software, the Monkey does not. If you need to calibrate your Windows laptop or Macbook, then get the i1D3. If you just need a meter for HCFR, the Monkey should be perfectly capable at the lower price.

Not sure how long meters last.

Paul

I will use it only for my TV.Not sure what i will do yet tho,cause im on a tight budget...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,944 Posts
It seems to be pretty evenly split between people who find the calibrations amazing, or have 2 point issues with them, such as reddish hue. I think that may be a panel variation on larger size panels, variance from mine, not variance from"correct". More reason to push people to spend the $100-150USD on a meter for the free HCFR software. :)

As for calibrating with local dimming off...if you calibrate with local dimming off, you end up with a few issues if you plan to watch the TV with local dimming on. Firstly, if you calibrate for black compensated 2.2 gamma, meaning your gamma curve starts at your TV's actual black level reading, and not absolute 0.00000cd/m like an OLED, then when you turn on local dimming, your shadows will all DARKEN, and you would get black crush. This can also be seen on the RGB levels, as when I calibrate LD off, then turn LD on and take another sweep, my RGB 's not only all fall below the 100% line on HCFR, they do so in an inconsistent and awkward way. Now this may not be visible to most people, but it's definitely there, so I calibrate how I watch. Other things that will alter a calibration include BFI, or motion clearness settings. Not sure why, but they mess with the shadows as well.

I've also been playing around with HDR10 and HCFR, but I am seeing things that mean I don't know how to take HDR readings, or that the RGB is screwed up massively 10-50% when HDR10 is active. Sony says the gamma tracks up to HDR from SDR, but I am not seeing this so far.

Paul
I'm trying to help since I've calibrated many 900F's and never had these issues or seen calibration results like yours.
So calibrating with local dimming off is how Sony designed the set to get the best possible outcome. When you use Calman Autocal which uses parameters from Sony, Local Dimming is turned off for the calibration then turned back on after it's done. I'm guessing the reason why you see issues calibrating like this is because something is not right with your setup. Post the 2pt with Local Dimming off and let's see what you come up with and maybe figure out what's going on. You are on the right track. In order to fix black crush, which you shouldn't be getting much on an LCD, you need to get the gamma set properly.

Sony does calculate the HDR parameters from the SDR calibration and it works perfectly.
I'll post some scans later to show that it does work.

Also I know Calman is not free but Sony is releasing new firmware which will allow you to use Autocal. Autocal will calibrate the set automatically and you can not only see what it's doing but also manually tweak the settings after it's done.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sebastien.juglar

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,074 Posts
I will use it only for my TV.Not sure what i will do yet tho,cause im on a tight budget...
You could always buy the meter, calibrate your TV< then resell the meter on eBay. You would lose a little bit of money from the transaction, but the end cost would be small, and the improvement would be worth it IMO. :)


I'm trying to help since I've calibrated many 900F's and never had these issues or seen calibration results like yours.
So calibrating with local dimming off is how Sony designed the set to get the best possible outcome. When you use Calman Autocal which uses parameters from Sony, Local Dimming is turned off for the calibration then turned back on after it's done. I'm guessing the reason why you see issues calibrating like this is because something is not right with your setup. Post the 2pt with Local Dimming off and let's see what you come up with and maybe figure out what's going on. You are on the right track. In order to fix black crush, which you shouldn't be getting much on an LCD, you need to get the gamma set properly.

Sony does calculate the HDR parameters from the SDR calibration and it works perfectly.
I'll post some scans later to show that it does work.

Also I know Calman is not free but Sony is releasing new firmware which will allow you to use Autocal. Autocal will calibrate the set automatically and you can not only see what it's doing but also manually tweak the settings after it's done.
They are putting autocal on the X900F? I want in! :-D

The LD will mess with my TV's low end gamma, causing colors to go up or down or both, not together, but randomly. I can show you what my X900F looks like on stock Cinema Pro Expert 1 or 2 defaulted to stock settings, and the blue is almost off the chart, green close behind it, and red is typically below 100%. My first pass to get a baseline of max RGB brightness, HCFR gave me something like 300nits B 200nits G in peak color brightness above R. With all the B and G turned down to match my R, my end maximum brightness at 100 is only like 460cd/m. :(

If I toggle my corrections on and off, you can see the TV go blue/green, yucky skin tones. I see this blue green push in almost every TV, simply because they can shove more photons at your eyes, ignoring what tint/hue those photons come at you as.

Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts
Hey all. I've had my 75" 900f since Saturday and have gone thru 3 or 4 of the settings suggested.
It seems that most suggest expert 1 but everything looks yellow. It's very noticeable with white text.
I have not gone thru the 10pt settings yet but hopefully will have time tonight.

Any ideas or suggestions?
Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15 Posts
Should x-tended dynamic range be used for HDR content? If you are not using this feature, are you experiencing HDR how it’s intended?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
FYI,
You must have a very unique panel because your Bias adjustments for the 2pt calibration seem way off. I never have had to adjust them more than a couple of clicks + or -. Your adjustments are huge and when you have to make large adjustments like that i'm always suspicious that there you have a panel that's out of spec or something is wrong with your calibration setup. You said you calibrating with Local Dimming set to High? You should be calibrating with it OFF then when you adjust it to Low, Medium or High, the set will make the correct offsets. This is from Sony.
John, do you think you could post an example of what you would consider a conservative 2 point adjustment for the 900f? I like some of the characteristics of Paul's calibration, but I do think that the change is a bit extreme and darkens the panel and colors too much for my liking.

--
Kevan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
215 Posts
Can anyone tell me how this TV stacks up against the XBR 65x900a?

This F series does have HDR and now Dolby Vision?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
I'm trying to help since I've calibrated many 900F's and never had these issues or seen calibration results like yours.

So calibrating with local dimming off is how Sony designed the set to get the best possible outcome. When you use Calman Autocal which uses parameters from Sony, Local Dimming is turned off for the calibration then turned back on after it's done. I'm guessing the reason why you see issues calibrating like this is because something is not right with your setup. Post the 2pt with Local Dimming off and let's see what you come up with and maybe figure out what's going on. You are on the right track. In order to fix black crush, which you shouldn't be getting much on an LCD, you need to get the gamma set properly.



Sony does calculate the HDR parameters from the SDR calibration and it works perfectly.

I'll post some scans later to show that it does work.



Also I know Calman is not free but Sony is releasing new firmware which will allow you to use Autocal. Autocal will calibrate the set automatically and you can not only see what it's doing but also manually tweak the settings after it's done.

@jrref Pleasee can you confirm if autocal with Calman is now available on the 900F with the new Oreo update?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,017 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,944 Posts
@jrref Pleasee can you confirm if autocal with Calman is now available on the 900F with the new Oreo update?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You can use the firmware update for the A1E since it has the 900F firmware in the package. We are not sure why Sony hasn't officially released it but they still may be testing so you do this at your own risk but so far no one has had a problem. I suggest after installing, do a factory reset to clear any of your old settings.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,944 Posts
John, do you think you could post an example of what you would consider a conservative 2 point adjustment for the 900f? I like some of the characteristics of Paul's calibration, but I do think that the change is a bit extreme and darkens the panel and colors too much for my liking.

--
Kevan
You can adjust the Gain +-7 but the Bias shouldn't need an adjustment more than +-3 unless your panel is out of spec which sometimes happens.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CaptinCrunch

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Did a quick run of Calman autocal on the 85X900F using the Bravia workflow I updated my TV to the new Oreo firmware. The Calman disables local dimming during the calibration process but I set local dimming to high after the autocal was completed. The attached post calibration image is after local dimming was enabled and set to high.

Auto cal on the 900F is limited to only luminance and greyscale calibration as CMS calibration is not included.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,074 Posts
You can adjust the Gain +-7 but the Bias shouldn't need an adjustment more than +-3 unless your panel is out of spec which sometimes happens.
Not sure how your X900F allows a + adjustment of gain from stock, as stock RGB Gain settings on my X900F are all at MAX?

Did a quick run of Calman autocal on the 85X900F using the Bravia workflow I updated my TV to the new Oreo firmware. The Calman disables local dimming during the calibration process but I set local dimming to high after the autocal was completed. The attached post calibration image is after local dimming was enabled and set to high.

Auto cal on the 900F is limited to only luminance and greyscale calibration as CMS calibration is not included.
The PREcalibration looks about right, same as I was getting. Your POSTcalibration seems a bit...um...not very good. 0.6dE...eek. I do stand by my claim that the BLUE on this TV is the worst offender, with elevated green as well, as you can see from his CalMan graphs. Want to see my Custom/Warm stock HCFR screen? This is what the stock WARM setting looks like on the X900F.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,944 Posts
Not sure how your X900F allows a + adjustment of gain from stock, as stock RGB Gain settings on my X900F are all at MAX?
Typo, meant up to -7 on the gain. Again these are not exact but the point is if you are making very large adjustments to the 2pt, then your set is out of spec or something in the calibration setup is not correct.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,074 Posts
Typo, meant up to -7 on the gain. Again these are not exact but the point is if you are making very large adjustments to the 2pt, then your set is out of spec or something in the calibration setup is not correct.
I used to do 10 point only with local dimming off, but switched to doing a 2 point first because I had some issues where the 10% (especially blue) was still up at 120% with B offset set to MIN in 10% point. Also, thought the 2 point would be a better general setting to share as its much simpler. I adjusted my 2 point to get 10 and 100 on track for further 10 point calibration. You can't get a flat gamma with 2 point, so I am not sure exactly what would be the "correct" or "most proper" 2 point gamma curve to shoot for. Again, I was setting 2 point to prep my TV for 10 point and aid in point 1 and 10 alignment.

Paul
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,074 Posts
THESE ARE OLDER SETTINGS, PLEASE SEE POST BELOW FOR UPDATED SETTINGS


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/166-...0f-owners-settings-thread-8.html#post57551552


After multiple "customer complaints" about yellow or red whites, I purchased a brand new i1Display Pro meter.
Turns out my old meter was a bit off on color temperature, so it was profiling a bit warm. The black level, gamma tracking, etc were all matching the new meter, just the final color temp line was evenly off around 6000k instead of D65 6500k.

So, here is a new set of 2 point calibrations to take out the extra warmth of the old meter. Just add these in place of the 2 point figures in the quote below. These should get you by until a new calibration can be done this weekend wit the new meter. These 2 points + the old 10 points will get you 6500k and around 0.30dE white balance, assuming no major panel variations.

New Temp 2 Point to add to old 10 point below (in the self quote)

R-Gain -1
G-Gain -5
B-Gain -4
R-Bias -12
G-Bias -10
B-Bias -17

Contact me if you want to buy my old meter :)


OK, spent all of yesterday trying hard to get the most perfect gamma as possible, only to discover 8 hours in that my i1D3 meter has a serious issue with measurement color drift after being stuck to a TV for 8 hours! Long story short, the hours of calibrating were only good for training, and I redid them this morning, and the results are below. Final result was calibrated to 120ish cd/m at brightness 6, contrast MAX, with local dimming set to high. Resulting black level was 0.034cd/m, contrast around 3400:1, 2.2 flat gamma, remarkable 0.16dE average white balance error, with a 0.99dE for color checker dE. The point of this new calibration was to go beyond just getting a good white dE and 2.2 gamma, and to optimize the calibration for maximum possible brightness, which is why you see the weakest color gain left at Max, and the other brought down to match it, instead of just randomly bringing everything up and down.

Due to panel variances, you may or may not have an issue with strange color tint. Some have noticed a reddish hue to their TV after adding settings. The quick and dirty freestyle method to tweak those, is to adjust the 2 point GAIN color down or up until the offending hue goes away. Gain is color brightness, bias is color shadows...the 0% to 100% bias up to gain is your gamma...the lower the bias in relation to the gain, the larger the gamma value number will become. For ever 2 steps of gain you reduce, it will require maybe 1 step of the same color of bias to be removed as well. This calibration and gamma curve was achieved with local dimming on and contrast to maximum. There is no white clipping, and turning local dimming off with these settings will result in low range shadow gamma oddities, and maybe some crushed blacks. See HCFR screen grab below.

I am still working on the new APPS calibration. You can use the HDMI version for APPS, although not optimized, should still be workable. The biggest difference between HDMI and APPS calibrations is that HDMI on APPS will result in increased shadow gamma, meaning the shadows will fall below the highlights in luminance and color volume, typically referred to as crushed blacks.

Expert 1 HDMI

Brightness 6 for 120cd/m
Contrast Max
Local Dimming High
X-tended Dynamic Range OFF

2 Point
R-Gain Max
G-Gain -6
B-Gain -7
R-Bias -14
G-Bias -11
B-Bias -18

10 Point
Point 1 -3 -2 -1
Point 2 -1 -1 -2
Point 3 -5 -3 -5
Point 4 -2 -1 -4
Point 5 -2 -1 -2
Point 6 -5 -4 -2
Point 7 -1 1 -2
Point 8 -5 -4 -3
Point 9 0 1 -4
Point 10 0 0 0

For those of you who have never had your TV calibrated, i am sure others who have will agree that the cost of the meter ($200) can and will increase the picture quality more than if you spent that money on a TV costing the same amount more as the meter itself. A proper calibration can make your Sony look like a completely different TV, and will absolutely put more expensive TV's with standard settings to shame.
 
141 - 160 of 1130 Posts
Top