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I still give the edge to MJ mainly due to Lebron's 4-6 record in the Finals but a case can definitely be made for him as GOAT
You are aware that MJ never won any playoff series without Robin (AKA Scottie Pippen) at his side. Pippen was named one of the 50 greatest players of all time. Did Lebron ever have any of the 50 greatest at his side while in the playoffs?

FYI I don't think you can name the GOAT as the different times have emphasized different skills, 24 second clock, enlarged lane, three point line, the defensive 90s, the gogo 80s, pre-draft era. etc. etc. etc.

For my money, in no particular order Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Lebron and Michael. Both Wilt and Kareem had rule changes designed to limit their effectiveness. YMMV
 

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I still give the edge to MJ mainly due to Lebron's 4-6 record in the Finals but a case can definitely be made for him as GOAT
I don't now who is the GOAT nor do I think anyone can say because of different rules, different players and different eras.

I definitely do not agree that the record in the finals is as meaningful as you are making it. I have never understood why people think that winning in the finals is better than getting to the finals more times. It's basically saying that losing before you get to the finals is better than getting to the finals and losing there.

I don't think you can go wrong arguing either MJ or LBJ though.
 

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Discussion Starter #785
You are aware that MJ never won any playoff series without Robin (AKA Scottie Pippen) at his side. Pippen was named one of the 50 greatest players of all time. Did Lebron ever have any of the 50 greatest at his side while in the playoffs?

FYI I don't think you can name the GOAT as the different times have emphasized different skills, 24 second clock, enlarged lane, three point line, the defensive 90s, the gogo 80s, pre-draft era. etc. etc. etc.

For my money, in no particular order Wilt, Kareem, Oscar, Lebron and Michael. Both Wilt and Kareem had rule changes designed to limit their effectiveness. YMMV
I've been on record stating that I don't think MJ is the GOAT...Bill Russell and Kareem have better cases...like you said it's better to just have a group of players in the top tier due to rules changes etc

as far as MJ needing a sidekick...Lebron has jumped from team to team always with other superstars, he never won a title without his own Robin (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Anthony Davis)
 

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I've been on record stating that I don't think MJ is the GOAT...Bill Russell and Kareem have better cases...like you said it's better to just have a group of players in the top tier due to rules changes etc

as far as MJ needing a sidekick...Lebron has jumped from team to team always with other superstars, he never won a title without his own Robin (Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Anthony Davis)
Absolutely on Lebron having a sidekick, I can't think of any NBA champ that did not have at least two very, very good players if not two superstars.. My point was that too many fans tend to forget that Michael had an awfully good wingman in Scottie Pippen whenever he had even a winning season let alone a championship.
 

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Absolutely on Lebron having a sidekick, I can't think of any NBA champ that did not have at least two very, very good players if not two superstars.. My point was that too many fans tend to forget that Michael had an awfully good wingman in Scottie Pippen whenever he had even a winning season let alone a championship.
You could say that MJ had a great wingman but the rest of the cast were basically all role players. MJ had to win with Luke Longley, Bill Cartwright and Bill Wennington and other role players. As opposed to say Magic Johnson who had great or really good players at almost every position with him. Larry Bird had some excellent players with him as well. On the other hand, you could say the league was stronger in those years and lots of teams had two or three excellent players. And on the other hand, MJ, Magic and Bird were fantastic players too.
 

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Discussion Starter #793
Based off of what?
Bill Russel's 11 championships in 13 years will never be beat...so he's the ultimate winner...and he went head-to-head with Wilt...Kareem won 6 titles and was a 19 time All-Star...I don't think their accomplishments can be debated...
 

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Bill Russel's 11 championships in 13 years will never be beat...so he's the ultimate winner...and he went head-to-head with Wilt...Kareem won 6 titles and was a 19 time All-Star...I don't think their accomplishments can be debated...
The championships argument is pretty weak being that there wasn't a good balance in the league when Russell played and there were 9 teams in the league. Kareem has an argument but after 1980 he wasn't the best player on his own team.
 

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Discussion Starter #795
The championships argument is pretty weak being that there wasn't a good balance in the league when Russell played and there were 9 teams in the league. Kareem has an argument but after 1980 he wasn't the best player on his own team.
I've always considered the 'era' argument to be pretty weak...you can't change the era you played in or the rules of that era...20 years from now people will complain that Lebron played in an era which diminishes his titles...
 

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I've always considered the 'era' argument to be pretty weak...you can't change the era you played in or the rules of that era...20 years from now people will complain that Lebron played in an era which diminishes his titles...
Not trying to change the era just telling it like it is. Nine teams in a league not much competition. People complaining about Lebron playing in an era which diminishes makes no sense.
 

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Not trying to change the era just telling it like it is. Nine teams in a league not much competition. People complaining about Lebron playing in an era which diminishes makes no sense.
Didn't hurt Russell chances that none of his teammates could leave in free agency. The free agent era makes it much more difficult to keep a successful team together.
 

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Bill Russel's 11 championships in 13 years will never be beat...so he's the ultimate winner...and he went head-to-head with Wilt...Kareem won 6 titles and was a 19 time All-Star...I don't think their accomplishments can be debated...
How come nobody uses this argument for the rest of his teammates that won so many championships? Maybe because it is a team game?

For the record Russell is in my top 10 of all time so I do consider him as one of the greatest players of all time it is just that I consider Kareem and Wilt as better individual players.

center Bill Russell holds the record for the most NBA championships won with 11 titles during his 13-year playing career. He won his first championship with the Boston Celtics in his rookie year. Afterwards, he went on to win ten championships in the next 12 years, including eight consecutive championships from 1959 to 1966.[8] He won the last two championships in 1968 and 1969 as player-coach. Russell's teammate, Sam Jones, won ten championships from 1959 to 1969, the second most in NBA history.Four Celtics players, Tom Heinsohn, K. C. Jones, Satch Sanders and John Havlicek, won eight championships each, with Havlicek being the only one to win championships independently of Russell. Two other Celtics, Jim Loscutoff and Frank Ramsey, won seven championships each.
 

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Discussion Starter #799
How come nobody uses this argument for the rest of his teammates that won so many championships? Maybe because it is a team game?

For the record Russell is in my top 10 of all time so I do consider him as one of the greatest players of all time it is just that I consider Kareem and Wilt as better individual players.
that actually proves my point...nobody puts guys like Tommy Heinsohn in that conversation because while they were good players in their own right they were not on the same level as a guy like Russell...so his individual accomplishments being part of a team of very good players stands out which is why Bill Russell is considered a GOAT candidate while K.C Jones isn't
 
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