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NB in the post 660 (the last post of the previous page is the reading with Il Radiance as a Pattern generator)


This is what happens with Calman Home for LG in HDR and TPG Pattern Generator internal to LG E9, the bright peak at 100 ire is 741 nits.


The numbers seem to be there but the Gamma does not follow the ST 2084 HDR (PQ) but is a Power 2.2.
This is a strange thing that happens in my Calman Home LG but it doesn't happen in the Calman Hentusiast, so I don't know if the problem is software or the TPG TV
(While in SDR mode all readings are identical to what Enthusiast detects through Lumagen Pro)
 

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Discussion Starter #662
This is what happens with Calman Home for LG in HDR.
(While in SDR mode all readings are identical to what Enthusiast detects through Lumagen Pro)
Well that's all wrong.
 

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Well that's all wrong.
Hi, to start thank you for your reply.
yes, I've seen it, so I asked for information on the cause or possible error of mine .... given the big difference I see if I use the Lumagen radiance Pro as a pattern generator that instead performs a correct HDR reading.

In this case I use Calman Home for LG and the Tv for pattern generator ... TPG internal




observes the previus post (number 660) in the last page... where i use the Lumagen Pro for pattern generator
 

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Hi, to start thank you for your reply.
yes, I've seen it, so I asked for information on the cause or possible error of mine .... given the big difference I see if I use the Lumagen radiance Pro as a pattern generator that instead performs a correct HDR reading.

6) Recommendations, tips, or other productive suggestions on how to properly calibrate this set and overcome any issues

The idea of this thread is to encourage contributions from Home Enthusiasts and the Professionals and build a calibration knowledge base with factual, useful information that all can learn from and use as we proceed through the model year.
That would be nice :)
 

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I have two questions regarding the FSI EDR for the i1D3 included in LightSpace:

  1. Since the 2019 panels have a different pixel structure in comparison to the 2018 models, this EDR isn't ideal for LGs 2019 models, right?
  2. Would it be better to use an RGB OLED EDR if you set the new "Peak Brightness" setting to off?
    To my understanding this setting basically disables the white subpixel - or at least reduces its luminance significantly.
1) There so no major changes between 2018/2019 panels, as gamut/peak luminance remain the same. There were changes to electronics mainly. While the pixel shape/size has changed a bit it will not affect a lot the spectral response, so 2018 FSI EDR can be used from LG 2019 users also.

At least from the other tables X-Rite is coming (RGB OLED) or not using any spectral correction (using the Generic CMF selection), the WRGB OLED EDR will be a better choice when someone has a colorimeter as a stand-alone meter.

2) The Peak Brightness setting is explained there: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3088376-lg-oled-2019-pq-curve-upload-free-template-devicecontrol-interface.html#post58608608

The white subpixel will not be disabled with Peak Brightness to Off.

The LG OLED WRGB displays implements white with target peak luminance higher than maximum luminance using three-color subpixels (W/R/G, B/W/R, G/B/W or R/G/B) among four-color (W/R/G/B) subpixels in order to adjust a color temperature.

In order to enhance the luminance of the LG OLED TV especially for HDR mode, an additional a W sub-pixel (unfiltered transmitting white light) has been added to the other 3 sub-pixels (RGB) which are filtered.

The unfiltered White sub-pixels are much more efficient than the RGB-subpixels, so efficient drive schemes based to 'White Replacement algorithm' utilize the W primary as much as possible and the RGB primaries as less as possible, by computing and removing/subtracting the neutral luminance from an RGB triad of sub-pixels and transfer/assign it to the W sub-pixel, this method increasing the overall efficiency of the display panel.

So the whole WRGB concept works by driving as more as possible the W subpixel the from other subpixels, the TV controller will zero the value of one sub-pixel so all the time 3-subpixels from the 4 will light up, so its impossible to see all subpixels light up the same time.

2) No, as for RGB OLED EDR file X-Rite used a Sony PVM-2541 RGB OLED Monitor to create the OLED spectral correction for i1Display PRO which can be useful when you will measure the Sony or FSI (Flanders Scientific Inc.) RGB OLED Broadcasting Monitors, not any consumer WRGB OLED.
 

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Concerning the accuracy of the LG ITPG another way to look at it is regardless if it's bit perfect it's probably pretty close. I'm sure the folks at LG did the best they could to make it as accurate as possible given the technology and architecture in the set. For an Enthusiast, this is a great feature and i'm sure you will get great results but if you want perfection then you need to get an external TPG or use one of the known accurate disk based pattern sets.
If you see Panasonic iTPG, according to CalMAN instructions, you don't need to have Contrast/Brightness to specific positions (as LG require for iTPG to work).

The CalMAN workflow don't say that Panasonic iTPG has any problem to verify post calibration of HDR10/HLG, as verifying post-cal HDR10 with LG iTPG is not possible.

So looks like Panasonic engineers did a better job to their iTPG.

I haven't used Panasonic GZ2000 with iTPG to know more, have you used Panasonic iTPG?
 

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Now that you said you have done it then that's great, case closed.
Case closed? you mean like the Murideo testing or MobileForge?

The same person has found everything bit-perfect and then consumers find out all the problems.
 

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Fabio, Correct but my point was it's a person's personal goals on how much money they want to invest in order to reach the standards.
If you know what you are doing, you can have better results spending less money from the person which will spend a lot of more money, but he will use problematic workflows (adjust OLED Light after profiling for example..OMG) and software/settings etc.

For example skipping 1D LUT can provide better results, which can be confirmed visually and by measurements also with SDR.
 

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NB in the post 660 (the last post of the previous page is the reading with Il Radiance as a Pattern generator)





This is what happens with Calman Home for LG in HDR and TPG Pattern Generator internal to LG E9, the bright peak at 100 ire is 741 nits.





The numbers seem to be there but the Gamma does not follow the ST 2084 HDR (PQ) but is a Power 2.2.

This is a strange thing that happens in my Calman Home LG but it doesn't happen in the Calman Hentusiast, so I don't know if the problem is software or the TPG TV

(While in SDR mode all readings are identical to what Enthusiast detects through Lumagen Pro)


You cannot validate HDR with the internal pattern generator. It is physically located after the HDR processing block. After the HDR processing block the TV signal is in 2.2 gamma.
 

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This is what happens with Calman Home for LG in HDR and TPG Pattern Generator internal to LG E9, the bright peak at 100 ire is 741 nits.

(While in SDR mode all readings are identical to what Enthusiast detects through Lumagen Pro)



Hi, its normal the results you see, as the iTPG is after the HDR tone mapping function processing unit, so always it will measure gamma based panel response (not PQ-EOTF).

Your Lumagen since you send patterns from HDMI Input, TV see the HDR10 metadata and enable the PQ-EOTF tone mapping, so you will always has PQ-EOTF tracking measurements like that.

Something to note for your Lumagen PRO, its bit-perfect for patch generation for YCbCr 4:2:2 only, for 4:4:4 or RGB-Video, there small errors due to some internal processing, so patterns are not generated as solid color but with +-1 8bit difference (per each sub-pixel) if you check with digital signal analyzer.

When you are using YCbCr 4:2:2, the pixel window area is sold pixels and bit-perfect.
 

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Hi, its normal the results you see, as the iTPG is after the HDR tone mapping function processing unit, so always it will measure gamma based panel response (not PQ-EOTF).

Your Lumagen since you send patterns from HDMI Input, TV see the HDR10 metadata and enable the PQ-EOTF tone mapping, so you will always has PQ-EOTF tracking measurements like that.

Something to note for your Lumagen PRO, its bit-perfect for patch generation for YCbCr 4:2:2 only, for 4:4:4 or RGB-Video, there small errors due to some internal processing, so patterns are not generated as solid color but with +-1 8bit difference (per each sub-pixel) if you check with digital signal analyzer.

When you are using YCbCr 4:2:2, the pixel window area is sold pixels and bit-perfect.
Thanks so much to both of you for the answers.

For Ted Thank, Always accurate and exhaustive in the answers... I know the fact of 4.2.2 on Radiance which is the one I use, but I wonder if it is correct in an absolute sense? or if perhaps it would be better to have an RGB generator....

I don't touch brightness and contrast because I find them correct for viewing.
Very good near black in E9.
 

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For Ted Thank, Always accurate and exhaustive in the answers... I know the fact of 4.2.2 on Radiance which is the one I use, but I wonder if it is correct in an absolute sense? or if perhaps it would be better to have an RGB generator....

I don't touch brightness and contrast because I find them correct for viewing.
Very good near black in E9.

At home I own both an E6 and an EZ950 in addition to the Pioneer Kuro 5090H, wife, son, and history.
As all content for Home are YCbCr, set all your sources to YCbCr 4:2:2 12bit, set Lumagen YCbCr 4:2:2 input/output and you will be fine. No need to use RGB generation as you already have perfect 4:2:2 patch generation.

Sending all your inputs to YCbCr 4:2:2 is the recommendation of Lumagen also, as internal procesing works at same colorspace.
 

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As all content for Home are YCbCr, set all your sources to YCbCr 4:2:2 12bit, set Lumagen YCbCr 4:2:2 input/output and you will be fine. No need to use RGB generation as you already have perfect 4:2:2 patch generation.

Sending all your inputs to YCbCr 4:2:2 is the recommendation of Lumagen also, as internal procesing works at same colorspace.

Hi Ted, Thanks again.
Lumagen I don't use it on E9, I can't find any reason, it already seems very well calibrated as a base, I used it only to evaluate if there was a correspondence with LG's internal TPG .... you never know ....:)

at the moment I dare not calibrate because the uncertainty of the C6 and Pro2 Colorimeter that I would have used to generate a possible correction matrix (with the lumianance problem of the red on the Colorimeter) do not consider them precise enough to improve what seems already correct.

the uncertainty of measurement I think also for the Pro2 even if both in SDR and HDR the detections on E9 are incredibly low DeltaE.

The situation was different on Lg E6 ...





I use Lumagen Pro where necessary in 4.2.2 mode because it is the advice of Lumagen, I had the doubt about the RGB problem you solved because in a third video chain I use Raspberry as a pattern generator, if I'm not mistaken in remembering, it comes out in RGB, but at the moment I'm not sure, I should go and review the information about it ...

I trust your comments very much, let's be clear that I follow the directions of Lumagen, or Lg, or Panasonic etc ... but I prefer to have the opinion of people with experience unrelated to interests, like you for example.

Thanks to you and the whole group of people from this forum.
 

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Hi Ted, Thanks again.
Lumagen I don't use it on E9, I can't find any reason, it already seems very well calibrated as a base
There not so great the REC.709 mapping if you measure mid-low end colors, as typical workflows measure high luminance patches only.

Measure 10-Point Luminance or 10-Point Saturation (with 50% Stim or 25% Stim) and you will see a lot of problems.

All these will be improved with a good profiling via internal 3D LUT capability.

at the moment I dare not calibrate because the uncertainty of the C6 and Pro2 Colorimeter that I would have used to generate a possible correction matrix (with the lumianance problem of the red on the Colorimeter) do not consider them precise enough to improve what seems already correct.
Create the 4-color matrix using the wide gamut (uncalibrated TV grayscale @ 100 nits) and run a verification of the meter profile to be sure (select RAW XYZ to your C6 when you will measure). If you see large error to the Red after verification, try the Auto Gamut and re-profile.

The situation was different on Lg E6 ...
The E6 will need your Lumagen and 3D LUT, as it has large problem with gamut mapping of REC.709:



The gamut is expanded at mid-low end. This problem can appear to 2018/2019 models, and typical Saturation sweep can't show that problem.

You have to measure with 10/20-Point Luminance sweep to find out.

I use Lumagen Pro where necessary in 4.2.2 mode because it is the advice of Lumagen, I had the doubt about the RGB problem you solved because in a third video chain I use Raspberry as a pattern generator, if I'm not mistaken in remembering, it comes out in RGB, but at the moment I'm not sure, I should go and review the information about it ...
PGenerator is low cost solution for accurate RGB (only) patch generation, its solution for users who want a low cost bit-perfect generator (RGB), people with external generations with accurate YCbCr, will use YCbCr patch generation, as there a small difference if you send YCbCr vs. RGB-Video HDMI Input to LG OLED's (and other TV's also): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3043520-lg-oled-s-3d-lut-profiling-using-lightspace-thread-10.html#post58376966
 

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There not so great the REC.709 mapping if you measure mid-low end colors, as typical workflows measure high luminance patches only.

Measure 10-Point Luminance or 10-Point Saturation (with 50% Stim or 25% Stim) and you will see a lot of problems.

All these will be improved with a good profiling via internal 3D LUT capability.



Create the 4-color matrix using the wide gamut (uncalibrated TV grayscale @ 100 nits) and run a verification of the meter profile to be sure (select RAW XYZ to your C6 when you will measure). If you see large error to the Red after verification, try the Auto Gamut and re-profile.



The E6 will need your Lumagen and 3D LUT, as it has large problem with gamut mapping of REC.709:



The gamut is expanded at mid-low end. This problem can appear to 2018/2019 models, and typical Saturation sweep can't show that problem.

You have to measure with 10/20-Point Luminance sweep to find out.



PGenerator is low cost solution for accurate RGB (only) patch generation, its solution for users who want a low cost bit-perfect generator (RGB), people with external generations with accurate YCbCr, will use YCbCr patch generation, as there a small difference if you send YCbCr vs. RGB-Video HDMI Input to LG OLED's (and other TV's also): https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3043520-lg-oled-s-3d-lut-profiling-using-lightspace-thread-10.html#post58376966



But then I become verbose in saying Thanks

I will read everything as a gospel, all very interesting.



To begin with I will perform those checks.

But unfortunately for the correction matrix I did the tests as you indicated a few days ago but I can't improve the Luminance error on red.

I hope with the new LS mode as indicated by Steve if it also works through Pro2.



Some time ago I generated a 3D lut with LightSpace loaded on the Lumagen Pro connected to LG E6 because as you yourself pointed out E6 needed a quite important intervention, in that case the Luminance problem on the Red for the correction matrix I considered it less important because I would have achieved a great general improvement
performing 3D Lut for E6, and indeed the results were evident in positive.
 

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  1. Would it be better to use an RGB OLED EDR if you set the new "Peak Brightness" setting to off?
    To my understanding this setting basically disables the white subpixel - or at least reduces its luminance significantly.
As an additional info for my post here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3042154-2019-lg-oled-calibration-user-settings-no-price-talk-23.html#post58664228

The diagram below describing a method which the timing controller converts input 10-bit RGB data intro 10-bit WRGB data.




At least one subpixel data will be converted to 0 (zero).
 

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From Rtings:

"The C9 has a new Peak Brightness setting, which adjusts how the ABL performs. Setting this to 'Off' results in most scenes being displayed at around 303 cd/m², unless the entire screen is bright, in which case the luminosity drops to around 139 cd/m². Increasing this setting to 'Low', 'Med', or 'High' increases the peak brightness of small highlights. If ABL bothers you, setting the contrast to '80' and setting Peak Brightness to 'Off' essentially disables ABL, but the peak brightness is quite a bit lower (246-258 cd/m² in all scenes)."

So if I target white to 100-150 nits when calibrate, there´s no ABL and no use for this setting?

Anyone knows what that setting actually do?
It´s not only how ABL limits luminance because it also affects when use low OLED-light values.
It changes gamma but how?
About the Peak Brightness setting see here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3088376-lg-oled-2019-pq-curve-upload-free-template-devicecontrol-interface.html#post58608608

About ABL see here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-display-calibration/3043520-lg-oled-s-3d-lut-profiling-using-lightspace-thread-10.html#post58376954

For SDR the Peak Brightness setting should be off, when you aim for luminance levels below 300-400 nits.

There no ABL until 150 nits.

Everything above about 150-155 nits will enable the ABL function (when you have 100% APL).

The TV internally analyse the frame APL and change the gamma tracking according to peak output.

There at least 3 diff gamma adjustments the TV will apply.

I will explain another day because It will need a lot of time but to keep stuff short, there one gamma until 150 nits, a different gamma from 150 until near the panel max output, and different gamma for the max output.

So there gamma offset applied according to peak output and APL, when you have a TV calibrated to its higher possible nits in SDR.

When you have it calibrated for up to 150 nits, there no problem and there no gamma change per different frame APL.
 

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I take advantage of the moment to ask more questions.

If I did a Lut 3D on Lg E9 just out of curiosity could I go back and retrieve the same basic parameters?

I ask this because for example on the Near Black E9 seems to have a great operation, I attach two photos of an HD movie Apple TV file, 4gb with a basic problem because the film is mastered with a high black point.

My Panasonic Ez950 (2017) shows obvious problems with Nero (the TV was calibrated only on the two high points with minimal intervention, and little else on CMS Red)
Lg E9 shows a much cleaner image at the time, which is quite evident throughout the film.


The first photo is of LG E9, the second is from Panasonic Ez950.....
I don't want to lose this quality relative to one of the most painful points of the Oled (near black) compared to my old Kuro
 

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I take advantage of the moment to ask more questions.

If I did a Lut 3D on Lg E9 just out of curiosity could I go back and retrieve the same basic parameters?
Do you have LightSpace and PGenerator also?

The first photo is of LG E9, the second is from Panasonic Ez950.....
I don't want to lose this quality relative to one of the most painful points of the Oled (near black) compared to my old Kuro
Do you have problem with Panasonic when you will use other app or HDMI/USB Input?

If you apply default values to RGB Balance and CMS controls, is the problem still there?
 

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I take advantage of the moment to ask more questions.

If I did a Lut 3D on Lg E9 just out of curiosity could I go back and retrieve the same basic parameters?

Do you have LightSpace and PGenerator also?



Do you have problem with Panasonic when you will use other app or HDMI/USB Input?

If you apply default values to RGB Balance and CMS controls, is the problem still there?

Yes, I have LighTspace and PGenerator

On EZ 950, yes on every HDMI port and also from an internal APP, even at Default, maybe just slightly less accentuated but equally visible and boring.

The photo highlights the problem in particular, from the truth we see these blocks with less contrast, but we see that the image is not clean.

Clearly this occurs with basic and compressed problematic films, in the case of the photo it is the movie The Marshes of Death from Apple TV with 4GB HD file saved on internal hard disk, no streaming.

Even on SkyQ, sometimes these effects are observed, a bit like on LG E6 but slightly less noticeable on EZ950.

What I want to avoid is to include problems of this type on E9 which is highly performing, even if the curiosity to optimize each parameter is alive.

I could always try a Lut on the Radiance connected to an HDMI and see the effects with or without.
 
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