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FINALLY! Vincent acknowledged the vrr near black issue in his latest cx review. Now we can only hope LG is working on a fix.

Another thing: he mentions the cx can display 444 correctly without pc mode??? Could someone confirm?
And he also mentioned - for the first time - posterization with HDR10 PC mode!
(I have sent him an email around 2 months ago that he never replied :D, along with the screwd blacks on LG B8).

He said the same thing about chroma 4:4:4 in Game mode on C9 as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #442
He said the same thing about chroma 4:4:4 in Game mode on C9 as well.
You mean pc mode? I own the c9 and 444 definitely doesn't work without pc mode.
 

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Keep in mind that whatever the HDMI diagnostic page shows is the input signal, not what the display ends up doing with it. Can you send 4:4:4 outside of PC mode? Of course. Will it show as such on your screen? No. At the end of the day it's best to just trust your eyes ;)
 
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Keep in mind that whatever the HDMI diagnostic page shows is the input signal, not what the display ends up doing with it. Can you send 4:4:4 outside of PC mode? Of course. Will it show as such on your screen? No. At the end of the day it's best to just trust your eyes ;)
Well, to my somewhat dodgy eyes the pink/purple "4:2:2 4:4:4" image and the 4K quick brown fox chroma subsampling image indicate that the TV is displaying 4:4:4 in Game mode without the PC input activated. But I hope others can confirm that, as well as my finding that Wide gamut is available in PC and Game modes:)

As I posted before, I'm pleasantly surprised by how these images look at 10-bit 4:2:2 with HDR enabled in Windows. While not perfect, they look much better than examples from other displays that I've seen. It gives me some reassurance that even if Nvidia's new cards can't send 4:4:4 at 10 bit, 4:2:2 will look fine, especially for gaming at 4K/120Hz.
 

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Unfortunately, the Club 3D DP 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 adapter will not support G-SYNC/VRR in its first production run: https://hardforum.com/threads/lg-48cx.1991077/post-1044592335

So no matter what the NVCP settings say, it looks like the CX is limited to 8-bit output at 1440p/120 or 4k/60. I just changed my settings back to RGB and can't see any difference when playing Ori: Will of the Wisps (there's banding on the title screen in all modes, but the game still looks amazing in action, especially since the recent HDR patch).

Thanks to @chros73 , @VBB , @LiLAsN , and @stama for their very informative posts in this thread. I haven't had as much time to play around with my 77" CX as I'd have liked, but I've ascertained the following (with the disclaimer that I am not the most discerning viewer, despite my best efforts):

—Dithering is still disabled in Game mode. (At very close range, I can see an irregular pattern of dark grey clusters of pixels in other modes.)
—Upscaling from 720p/1080p in Game mode with ALLM activated via my HDFury Vertex2 seems decent enough to me. But I am running my older consoles through an mClassic, which is outputting at 1440p.
—I don't see any elliptical pattern at 5%, but I think I've seen reports of this in the screen uniformity thread and wonder if there's a non-Game-mode-specific cause.
—I still can't see any obvious differences between Game mode (with ALLM/G-SYNC activated) and PC mode. The HDMI diagnostic menu reports 4:4:4 on both and the test images posted by chros73 look identical to me, with no obvious problems.
—A side note: the HDR implementation in Windows seems much better than it used to be, to the point where its rendering of SDR test patterns looks excellent.
—To me, Game mode and PC mode also look the same when playing the HDR sample that chros73 posted on my Oppo 203. It's hard to do a quick A/B comparison with PC mode, though, because it takes a while to click through and rename the input. Both modes are considerably worse than CalMAN-autocalibrated HDR Filmmaker mode, but that clip is a real torture test and shows up banding on my panel as well as the artifacts chros73 mentioned.

I'm sorry I haven't been able to be more systematic with testing, but I wanted to post some initial findings in the hope that others could supplement them. Let me know if there's anything else specific that it would be helpful for me to check.
Do you have to use the Windows HDR switch or does Ori do it automatically? I get concerned about using the Win10 HDR flag because it makes the desktop wonky and I can't tell what it does to SDR content in Kodi, Plex, and MPC-HC. If I do have to use the setting in the control panel what should I set the slider too?
 

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Regarding the HDR switch: the nvidia one shouldn't be used. ...
There's no other option using madVR now, but it's working fine: passing through all metadata fine (using Win10 1607 / 1809).
See it in action: HDR10 Tone Curve based on HDR10 metadata on B8.

You mean pc mode? I own the c9 and 444 definitely doesn't work without pc mode.
I don't have a C9 (only a B8), but Vincent's C9 gaming review states it:
- LG Cinema and Game mode comparison starts at 5:52
- he mentions chroma 4:4:4 in Game mode at 7:35

Can it depend on Resolution *and* refresh rate? Did Vincent used 2160p at 60Hz?
Try it with 2160p and 24p and 60p as well.

FWIW it does report 4:4:4 outside of PC mode on my 77" CX.
Well, to my somewhat dodgy eyes the pink/purple "4:2:2 4:4:4" image and the 4K quick brown fox chroma subsampling image indicate that the TV is displaying 4:4:4 in Game mode without the PC input activated.
Thanks for confirming! In which Resolution and refresh rate did you use? :)
Can you try it 1 more time with 2160p and 24p / 60p?

So, have you tested Game preset in non-PC mode with the 2 files that I linked above?
How does it look like compared to PC mode Cinema preset with 2160p @ 24p? (HDR10)

Wanted to say that Game Mode when HDMI input = PC still has full chroma support on a C8, it's not something new in CX.
It is because that's Game preset in non-PC mode! Vincent states the same about C9 (see above)

I just tested this again myself at 1080p and:
- chroma appears to have full spatial resolution for 120 Hz, 119 Hz, 100 Hz, 60 Hz, 59 Hz, 50 Hz
- chroma is clearly subsampled for 30 Hz, 29 Hz, 24 Hz, 23 Hz (for some reason I did not have 25 Hz in the nvidia refresh rate combo-box)
I also quickly tested it on B8, using 2160p (not 1080p) and Full RGB 12 bit (8bit with 60Hz), checking "Quick Brown Fox" image as well:
- PC mode SDR/HDR10 with 23p/60p: no difference between Game and Cinema presets (chroma 4:4:4 is supported)
-- that's what I expected, since we are in PC mode
- non-PC mode SDR/HDR10 with 23p/60p: no chroma 4:4:4 support in both presets (Game and Cinema presets), Game preset looks just a bit sharper but colors are better with Cinema preset

In summary, on B8 refresh rate doesn't matter:
- there's only a slight difference between Game and Cinema presets in non-PC mode, but that's *not* chroma 4:4:4 in Game preset!
 

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Currently over HDMI 2.0 that works.

They are all worried about the next HDMI 2.1 compatibility. Will the future graphics cards be able to output at 10 bit 4:4:4 4k 120 since the TV cannot take 12, or would they have to settle for 8 bit?

Without a release of these cards it is all speculation about which fears could happen. Will generation 1 of these 2.1 cards even support 12 bit 4:4:4 4k 120? Will even the C9 which is supposed to support 12 bit work properly with these cards and produce a good picture (vs a bunch of artifacts)? Perhaps no TV currently produced works properly. Perhaps the CX is missing a crucial feature. No one knows at this time. I bet there will be a lot of firmware fixes needed to get it to all to work properly.
Thank you for writing this, I am coming from a Samsung JS9000 2015 model and have been waiting for a G-sync monitor / tv.

Has anyone come up with if the GX does a better job, or is my research correct that they are pretty much the same thing. I liked the idea of the GX as it seems to be a lower profile.

Gaming wise, I plan to get a 3080ti when it comes, but I guess I could wait, let ignorance be bliss. The thing was the prices seem really good right now and what would be waiting for.... 3 months. With the quarantine I was thinking that not much would change.

How are you liking gaming on this? I have been playing Skyrim, Valorant, Overwatch and would love to have a better experience. Mine is pretty good already, but G-sync should make the difference. I just would hate to lose 4:4:4 Chroma and 4k 120hz Sounds like a game changer.

Would love your guys opinion here as I am really excited!
 

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Len, since you're in here and you have a Sony OLED, how does PC mode work on those? The madVR community has always been very curious about the difference between the LGs and the Sonys in that regard, but nobody over on doom9 has a Sony OLED. Does PC mode on the Sony look the same as regular mode as far as banding, gamut, etc. are concerned, and is it true 4:4:4?
I have no idea. I have never tried it. I have all my devices connected through my AVR and run them in cinema pro picture mode all the time. I also just checked, and I don't have a single computer with hdmi 2.0 support, except a laptop that uses nvidia optimus which apparently means it can't do HDR for some reason. So I have no way to test it.
 
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Do you have to use the Windows HDR switch or does Ori do it automatically? I get concerned about using the Win10 HDR flag because it makes the desktop wonky and I can't tell what it does to SDR content in Kodi, Plex, and MPC-HC. If I do have to use the setting in the control panel what should I set the slider too?
Yes, you do have to use the Windows HDR switch, otherwise the HDR settings in Ori are marked as "N/A." SDR games look good to me even with HDR enabled system-wide, but I don't use my PC for video (I have a Shield for that, connected to a different HDMI input), so I can't speak to the effects there.
 

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I have no idea. I have never tried it. I have all my devices connected through my AVR and run them in cinema pro picture mode all the time. I also just checked, and I don't have a single computer with hdmi 2.0 support, except a laptop that uses nvidia optimus which apparently means it can't do HDR for some reason. So I have no way to test it.
Thanks, Len. The search continues... :p
 

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In which Resolution and refresh rate did you use? :)
Can you try it 1 more time with 2160p and 24p / 60p?
OK, so I went back to this and realized that 4:4:4 is only active outside PC mode when HDR is activated in Windows. In SDR, PC mode must still be engaged for 4:4:4 to display correctly. I tried this at 4k resolution, both 24p and 60p. Sorry for the confusion.

With regard to this and my reply to @tjcinnamon above, can anyone confirm whether SDR is now accurately mapped within HDR in Windows? It looks pretty good to me (much better than it used to), but I'd be surprised if it's 100% accurate.

I'm also still curious as to why the pink/purple "4:2:2 4:4:4" image (opened in Paint at 100%) looks so much better at 4:2:2 when HDR is activated. In SDR, the 4:4:4 virtually disappears. In HDR, it's clearly visible, although there's a thin line of "ringing" pixels at the right-hand edge of each digit/colon.

So, have you tested Game preset in non-PC mode with the 2 files that I linked above?
How does it look like compared to PC mode Cinema preset with 2160p @ 24p? (HDR10)
I just played the HDR clip on my Oppo 203 and PC/Cinema looks very close to non-PC/Game to me. In both of those modes, I have done a manual two-point white balance calibration only. With test patterns, I can currently see the slightly crushed black levels in DV (both Cinema and Cinema Home). I don't seem to have raised black levels in HDR, though. Is there a specific test pattern that reveals that problem?

On first viewing, the DV clip looks the same to me regardless of whether the PC input is activated. Are there any specific moments you'd like me to check?

Over the next couple of weeks, I will be performing a factory reset and recalibrating all modes with LightSpace/ColourSpace, so I will be interested to see if that makes any difference. Hopefully the new firmware will have dropped by then.
 

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For anyone hassling with the Nvidia control panel to change the output settings, I've created a command-line tool which enables you to change the output color format and bit depth with ease.
It uses the NvAPI_Disp_ColorControl-function that is probably used by the control panel itself.
I've also added functionality which allows you to change the dithering algorithm of the driver.
You can however not change the resolution (yet).

Download link:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/yxcecws1dwfwhqq/NvColorControl2.0.0.0.zip/file

Here is some basic usage info:

Code:
Usage: NvColorControl    
     : 8, 10 or 12
  : RGB (full), RGBLM (limited), YUV444, YUV422 or YUV420
     : state: 0 = auto, 1 = enabled, 2 = disabled,
                  bits : 0 = 6 bit, 1 = 8 bit, 2 = 10 bit,
                  mode : 0 = none, 1, 2 or 3 = spacial, 4 = temporal
           : 0 or 1
Examples:
- NvColorControl 8 YUV444
- NvColorControl 10 YUV422
- NvColorControl 12 YUV420
- NvColorControl 8 RGB 1 1 4 1

NOTES:
- not all combinations are possible
- HDR can currently only be enabled and requires the application to stay open
- this application does not revert automatically to the previous settings after a timeout
The neat thing is you can create a shortcut to this application (with parameters) on the desktop and configure a shortcut key, so that you can change modes by simply pressing a key combination.
Let me know what you all think of this.
I just wanted to thank you for this incredible tool. Took me a couple of days to finally use it, but now I don't know how I ever lived without it ;)

Here I've always been wondering if Nvidia dithers by default. I had come to believe that it doesn't, but thanks to your little app it turns out it does. That is why my test pattern looked a little too smooth in 4:2:2 10-bit (and, in fact, in all other modes as well, to a lesser degree). So, after disabling dithering at the driver level, I ran through all the combos again, and even though it still shows some banding, YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit in regular HDMI-mode still produces the best picture (IMO*). The only downside being chroma sub-sampling, of course, but as we all know, we can't have our cake and eat it (yet).

*I feel like you always have to put that little disclaimer now, or someone will jump you and tell you you're dead wrong ;)
 

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I just wanted to thank you for this incredible tool. Took me a couple of days to finally use it, but now I don't know how I ever lived without it ;)

Here I've always been wondering if Nvidia dithers by default. I had come to believe that it doesn't, but thanks to your little app it turns out it does. That is why my test pattern looked a little too smooth in 4:2:2 10-bit (and, in fact, in all other modes as well, to a lesser degree). So, after disabling dithering at the driver level, I ran through all the combos again, and even though it still shows some banding, YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit in regular HDMI-mode still produces the best picture (IMO*). The only downside being chroma sub-sampling, of course, but as we all know, we can't have our cake and eat it (yet).

*I feel like you always have to put that little disclaimer now, or someone will jump you and tell you you're dead wrong ;)
VBB did you test Temporal vs Spacial dithering? Which one suppose to be better?
 

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There's no other option using madVR now, but it's working fine: passing through all metadata fine (using Win10 1607 / 1809).

I also quickly tested it on B8, using 2160p (not 1080p) and Full RGB 12 bit (8bit with 60Hz), checking "Quick Brown Fox" image as well:
- PC mode SDR/HDR10 with 23p/60p: no difference between Game and Cinema presets (chroma 4:4:4 is supported)
-- that's what I expected, since we are in PC mode
- non-PC mode SDR/HDR10 with 23p/60p: no chroma 4:4:4 support in both presets (Game and Cinema presets), Game preset looks just a bit sharper but colors are better with Cinema preset

In summary, on B8 refresh rate doesn't matter:
- there's only a slight difference between Game and Cinema presets in non-PC mode, but that's *not* chroma 4:4:4 in Game preset!
Windows HDR works with madVR. I'm using Windows 10 1809 myself, and nvidia drivers 441.66, but I also remember it worked with previous nvidia drivers. Did not try with more recent ones. Regarding the metadata passed or not to the display, I don't know, I don't have a way to check, but I don't care anyway as that only controls tone-mapping towards the limits of the display luminance range.

Your results made me curious and I've tested for chroma subsampling on my C8 at 2160p as well, with HDMI input as PC, in both Game and isfDark modes, at 23 Hz and 60Hz (SDR only) and it looks like the refresh rate does not matter at this resolution, indeed! It clearly does so at 1080p though - the chroma resolution is preserved only above 50 Hz with it even when using PC input.

And, as expected, chroma subsampling happens outside HDMI PC input (I tested HDMI as BluRay input) even in Game mode.

Have attached the photos I took. The pattern is the "5-Mixed-Convergence.png" from the AVS HD 709 calibration set. First six photos are the 1080p png image displayed 1:1, and the next six are the same image magnified twice (fills the 4K screen when you do that).
 

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VBB did you test Temporal vs Spacial dithering? Which one suppose to be better?
I did not, sorry. I don't game on the TV, so I'm just interested in disabling dithering at the driver level for testing the effect on video playback.
 
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I believe @muzikologist has confirmed it does support full chroma for [email protected] Probably yet another issue they ran into similar to the odd VRR input lag. They don't even enter into details in regards to it, which makes it even more odd.
Sorry, I need to amend this after further testing: [email protected] only supports full chroma in HDR mode (when HDR is activated in Windows). It is not supported in SDR. For me, this is the case regardless of whether PC mode is engaged.
 

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Windows HDR works with madVR. I'm using Windows 10 1809 myself, and nvidia drivers 441.66, but I also remember it worked with previous nvidia drivers. Did not try with more recent ones. Regarding the metadata passed or not to the display, I don't know, I don't have a way to check, but I don't care anyway as that only controls tone-mapping towards the limits of the display luminance range.

Your results made me curious and I've tested for chroma subsampling on my C8 at 2160p as well, with HDMI input as PC, in both Game and isfDark modes, at 23 Hz and 60Hz (SDR only) and it looks like the refresh rate does not matter at this resolution, indeed! It clearly does so at 1080p though - the chroma resolution is preserved only above 50 Hz with it even when using PC input.

And, as expected, chroma subsampling happens outside HDMI PC input (I tested HDMI as BluRay input) even in Game mode.

Have attached the photos I took. The pattern is the "5-Mixed-Convergence.png" from the AVS HD 709 calibration set. First six photos are the 1080p png image displayed 1:1, and the next six are the same image magnified twice (fills the 4K screen when you do that).
Ya I was surprised to see Vincent say the CX supported full chroma with "game console" input. I highly doubted that considering the C9 didn't.
 

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I just wanted to thank you for this incredible tool. Took me a couple of days to finally use it, but now I don't know how I ever lived without it ;)

Here I've always been wondering if Nvidia dithers by default. I had come to believe that it doesn't, but thanks to your little app it turns out it does. That is why my test pattern looked a little too smooth in 4:2:2 10-bit (and, in fact, in all other modes as well, to a lesser degree). So, after disabling dithering at the driver level, I ran through all the combos again, and even though it still shows some banding, YCbCr 4:2:2 10-bit in regular HDMI-mode still produces the best picture (IMO*). The only downside being chroma sub-sampling, of course, but as we all know, we can't have our cake and eat it (yet).

*I feel like you always have to put that little disclaimer now, or someone will jump you and tell you you're dead wrong ;)
Thank you for thanking me :)

I noticed as well that dithering was enabled by default. But for anyone using PC mode (like me), you can't really live without it. Banding is much better and for 8-bit HDR (so you can still enjoy 4:4:4 sampling) it really is necessary. If dithering is disabled, you're left with only about 64 shades of gray in a 0-255 gradient :eek:
 
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