[Donny84]

So, we all know that the LG C9, like EVERY other OLED and QLED can only deliver 300 lines of motion resolution, but how many lines of motion res do you get when using it's BFI? I've heard it doubles, or gets up to 700, which is it?

As is, the C9's BFI for streaming is useless to me solely because it can only achieve just under 140 nits of brightness. i need at least 200 nits in a dark room based on what i like. There does seem to be a big reduction in motion blur using BFI, which is especially noticeable when gaming. The best test for this would be putting on a game that runs in 60fps, and turning the screen in circles. without BFI, the C9 has only 300 lines slathered in a big haze of BLUR. it's terrible, not as bad as most smeary QLEDs, but it's NO plasma(at it's best) and definitely no CRT(Zero blur). But with the C9's BFI the playing field becomes more even compared to plasma's such as the Panasonic S60 from 2013. That plasma has 700 lines of motion res but it still suffers from blur. I've done comparisons between the the C9 and S60 using a 4K HDMI splitter side by side again with 60fps first person shooters by rotating the screen in cricles...And the results?

When BFI is enabled on the C9, there is actually a 'little' less blur compared to the S60. but the S60 is the clear winner when the C9 isn't using BFI. That aside, BFI increases input lag from about 14ms to 27ms on the C9 & CX, deal breaker right there. I'm looking for under 16ms(120fps gaming content can give you about 7ms) BUT for streaming movies & TV that doesn't matter.

I hope there's a gamer friendly 2021 OLED that has advanced BFI that allows for 200+ nits brightness, 1080lines of motion res and minimal, and i mean MINIMAL blur and hopefully only a couple or few ms of extra latency. fingers crossed. because as is, the C9 is NOT worth the asking price. it's plagued with black crush, too much motion blur for me, 300 lines of motion clarity, WRGB color, color volume is kind of weak and that annoying ABL which drops brightness to 140 nits. I'm dying for a 65", but i'm gonna hold out and wait for reviews this spring for the 2021 models

 

[daledenton9]

(Deleted)

 

[a.t.73]

Alrighty ladies and gents,
This is my first comment in this thread because I had to talk to some individuals who will actually care about the issue I’m facing. I recently bought a 65” LG CX as a new member of my home after loving the heck out of my 55” LG B6 for the past 4 years. The TV checks all my boxes for next gen gaming and has an even slightly more stunning image quality compared to my old set. Except for one major flaw. At first I didn’t notice it, but after it was seen I couldn’t make it be unseen. The set, regardless of source, with VRR off, in SDR or HDR, has an issue with brightening / flashing a certain tone of dark gray with motion. Gray tones both above and below are displayed perfectly. But the result is that any areas of darkness will brighten and look garish when panning the camera or looking at moving objects. I’m honestly amazed nobody has made more of a fuss about this. So I wanted to know, do you all experience the same thing? The fact that this does not occur at all on my B6 makes me feel as if this must be a software bug that has never been addressed. I’d really like for this to gain some traction and fingers crossed reach a formal response from LG. The videos below are taken from the “Maiden” PS5 demo as well as the opening for the free to download this month on PlayStation, Shadow of the Tomb Raider. Thanks for any replies!

Today i had time to test ur issue with my 55" CX and my PS5 und XBox Series X, luckilly i have Shadow of the Tomb Raider on both platforms. Maybe i am lucky, but i could not reproduce the flashing u have in exactly the same scene, neither on PS nor on XBOX. Tried the Maiden demo too and did not find anything. Shadow tested on XBox with VRR on and off. No flickering at all.
The worst VRR flickering happens with 30 fps games like The Medium and Tell me Why (I know the above mentioned flickering had nothing to do with VRR).

 

[Lors]

I played over 30 hours of games on my CX until seeing it in Maiden because the game’s exceptionally dark palette (specifically right after you get out of the initial torture chamber) which makes it almost impossible to miss.

Yeah i didn't miss it there. I haven't seen it on my 65C9 in any other game i have played since October 19 though and i definitely would see if it's there because my viewing distance is like 6-7ft.

 

[gunner842]

Just tried Men of Medan and the Medium from the xbox Gamepass.
Both games have a slight flicker in blacks.
Other games like Hitman 3 run great without problems. Anybody else having the issue?

Yes lots of people notice this, especially The Medium, I have turned off VRR and it fixes it, I will just do this for any games I encounter it, apparently the frame rate fluctuation on this game is up and down which is causing the flicker, hopefully they patch it soon so it masks the vrr flicker.

I also think going off others info, that it effects 30fps games more so, and The medium is 30fps and presume man of medan is as well, thats why we dont see it in most games as generally most have been 60fps on series x.

 

[Ecwrvd2]

Update to the issue where my 55 inch CX turned off twice. It did it again the other night while playing Dead Space 2 on my Series X. The ending boss battle where she grabs you and the screen flashes caused the TV to shut off. The Series X didn't do anything and kept running like normal.

Is this a protective feature in the TV or something? It doesn't happen with my PS5. And it didn't happen in a few months with the series x. It seems rapid flashing on the screen caused the TV to shut down and the red light to blink three times. The TV powered back on no problem and I even tried to replicate the result by having her grab me and the flashing screen happen again, but this time the TV didn't turn off.

 

[Malinkadink]

Yes again, the flicker in The Medium is really bad, as bad as in Tell me Why. So to my humble opinion, maybe technically not right but i can see it, the worst flickering happens in 30 fps games and it flickers all the time. For instance AC Valhalle, only flickers randomly in the loading screens and apparently not in the game itself, at least dont see it. So in AC the benefits of VRR outdo the flickering, whilst in The Medium theres is no befenfit from VRR, but its horrible with it. So for me now - 30 FPS game VRR off on Series X.

The officially supported VRR range on the CX is 40-120, below 40 it will start to frame double, I know for Nvidia implementation that typically means if you're playing at 30 fps the display is refreshing at 60hz, apparently AMD may do it differently wherein they instead only add the amount of frames required to be back in the officially supported range. Either way because of how the TV flickers with VRR you'll probably not have a great experience with 30 fps games and VRR. I haven't played the game but watched DF review of it and it does have frame pacing issues which are being worked on. Even if the FPS readout is a perfect 30 the frametime variance will absolutely trigger the TVs flickering. Medium is a perfect game to see the flicker because its color palette is very much in the 0-25% grayscale area which is where the gamma shift is mostly observed.

 

[BRAKKUS1]

The CX IMO, does an amazing job with BFI, you're getting 1080 lines and over with the max setting, yes you get dimming (which is fine in a dark room) and pushing 30ms latency, for me i don't find it a problem at all, even for retro games, personally I feel until the threshold is 40ms and higher, the experience is still great! And don't forget at 120hz/120 FPS, BFI has very little dimming and the motion is incredible, all at around 20-22ms.

 

[a.t.73]

The officially supported VRR range on the CX is 40-120, below 40 it will start to frame double, I know for Nvidia implementation that typically means if you're playing at 30 fps the display is refreshing at 60hz, apparently AMD may do it differently wherein they instead only add the amount of frames required to be back in the officially supported range. Either way because of how the TV flickers with VRR you'll probably not have a great experience with 30 fps games and VRR. I haven't played the game but watched DF review of it and it does have frame pacing issues which are being worked on. Even if the FPS readout is a perfect 30 the frametime variance will absolutely trigger the TVs flickering. Medium is a perfect game to see the flicker because its color palette is very much in the 0-25% grayscale area which is where the gamma shift is mostly observed.

That seems understandable, so i will turn it off in 30 fps games in future, and keep it in others, wheres it does not matter much.

 

[papamiraculi]

The problem with this is why is it not more widespread, only a few users here have complained about these issues with crawling blacks and these weird grey lighting effects such as @papamiraculi and @Deus_Ex_Machina if I remember right who had decided to exchange his.

But otherwise there hasn't been a whole lot of widespread awareness of these issues.

I strongly believe it affects every single CX. The problem is it only rears it’s head in select content, particularly video games where you can control the camera, and even then unless it’s pointed out a lot of people won’t pick up on it. I played over 30 hours of games on my CX until seeing it in Maiden because the game’s exceptionally dark palette (specifically right after you get out of the initial torture chamber) which makes it almost impossible to miss. Unless LG Support receives enough complaints it won’t be addressed.

Crawling Blacks / Luminance Overshoot issue

I've done tons of research on this issue, because it bothers me a lot.
It is some sort of dynamic lumanince overshoot at changes at very low luminance levels.

EDIT: I'm continuing to update this post with the most recent information on the issue.

These are my findings:

1. Some sets show it, othes don't. It might be that some sets show it more prominently than others. I have asked numerous people whose judgement I trust to run the test (see 4) and their sets are definitely not affected. EDIT: More and more people found that when looking closely they can see the issue. It looks like all sets are affected, but not to the same degree.
   EDIT2: It remains unclear if there are "clean" panels, or if all panels are affected.
2. It happens regardless of input, picture mode and any resonable Gamma / Brightness settings (on my set I have to set brightness to 63 to not see it at all).
3. It affects SDR, HDR and DV.
4. There are no settings whatsoever that can mitigate the overshoot.
5. Pixel Refresh does not help. Resetting the TV to factory settings does not help.
6. I calibrated my set, both automatically using a 1D LUT and manually using a 22pt correction in Calman Home for LG to no avail. This issue can't be ironed out by calibration.
7. The only dependence on content is that with dimly lit scenes and bad lighting it becomes more apparent. It is also there in well lit scenes on transitions to black, if you look closely. I can see it in any fade to and out of black. It is more apparent with video games, since there is more movement.
8. There is an easy way to test for this issue:
   Download the test pattern "Grey linearization" from the following link (it's free, thanks to Mehanik), play it on the PC in windowed mode and move the player window around the desktop. You will see the overshoot in motion. It's an HDR test file, but you can play it in SDR and HDR.
   01. Ramps – Google Drive
9. I had my first panel replaced. My second panel shows the same problem. I immediately told the service person who installed the new panel. He acknowledged there was something wrong and took my set to their workshop for testing. It came back with the result "Everything within specifications". No further comments. I accepted with reservations, hoping one of the updates would fix the issue. They didn't.
10. This issue existed before LG implemented/changed the dithering on the CX with the 03.21.16 update.
11. The overshoot is caused whenever the white subpixel ignites (above RGB 10 10 10), as exposed by @Ivansuper here: 2020 LG CX–GX dedicated GAMING thread, consoles and PC | Page 510 | AVS Forum
12. It seems to be related to the chrominance overshoot issue, which had plagued the C8 for some time. While the chrominance issue only affected colors, the issue here at hand affects greys as well;
    LG 2018 OLED TV (B8, C8, E8) Near-Black "Flashing" Problem Analysed - YouTube
13. An excellent display of the issue compiled by @Liquidoodle can be found here:
    LG CX Chrominance Overshoot Evidence - YouTube

What I don't know is what exactly is the root of the problem.
Maybe it is the panel, maybe it is in fact a fault in the main board, or maybe it is a software issue. The fact that some sets don't show the issue speaks against the latter. My exchange panel showing the same issue as my first one speaks against the former, so my guess at the moment is that is a main board issue.

I have just now found a way to capture it on camera and will file a complaint with LG.

I am collecting footage also from other users here and elsewhere to make LG aware of the scale of the issue.
Feel free to contact me or send me footage that you took. I would also like to encourage those who have already posted videos here to send me a link via PM, which will make compiling the evidence much easier. I will include the links in my complaint. If you want, I can add your names to the complaint, too, to put some pressure on LG.

 

[Lors]

I have just now found a way to capture it on camera

I would like to see it.

 

[papamiraculi]

I would like to see it.

@Lors
This is the best I could do, but you can clearly see the dynamic luminance overshoot at the fringes of the circle.
It is much more noticable in real life, but I guess it is visible enough.
This is just the synthetic test. @DiabolusExMachina and @That Guy Logan have posted how that looks in real content.
Youtube degraded the picture quality a bit. Maybe I can do even better with some more effort.

LG CX Luminance Overshoot "Crawling Blacks" - YouTube

 

[That Guy Logan]

Today i had time to test ur issue with my 55" CX and my PS5 und XBox Series X, luckilly i have Shadow of the Tomb Raider on both platforms. Maybe i am lucky, but i could not reproduce the flashing u have in exactly the same scene, neither on PS nor on XBOX. Tried the Maiden demo too and did not find anything. Shadow tested on XBox with VRR on and off. No flickering at all.
The worst VRR flickering happens with 30 fps games like The Medium and Tell me Why (I know the above mentioned flickering had nothing to do with VRR).

Very interesting. Perhaps it could be an issue that that only affect certain sizes. Anecdotally it seems most people complaining have 65” sets.

 

[Liquidoodle]

I've done tons of research on this issue

Wow, you really have, big thanks for the detailed info and all the effort you have put in. I'll attempt to record footage using the test you described and PM you the footage, is there any particular format you would like the video in, dropbox, YouTube etc? Hopefully LG didn't just return the same panel back to you when you got the replacement to the first one

Very interesting. Perhaps it could be an issue that that only affect certain sizes. Anecdotally it seems most people complaining have 65” sets.

Mine is a 65" so it'd be interesting to see if anyone with a different size gets it... I knew I should have gone 75"

Out of interest does anyone know what the process is like when getting a panel as big as a 65" returned for testing under warranty in the UK, do they come box it and pick it up for you or do you have to put it back in the box ready? It's a beast of a thing to deal with if you live alone like me so I'd very much like to avoid doing the warranty thing unless it guarantees a fix, I had to get my mate who is in a support bubble with me to come over and lift it onto the TV stand for me in the first place haha! I managed to put it together myself at least but I was so stressed doing it alone

 

[papamiraculi]

Youtube, if the compression doesn't ruin everything. This way I can just include the links in the complaint.

 

[BrainyCabde]

I'm curious what your HDR experience is with RDR2 on PC. I feel that dark areas appear slightly washed out. I have in-game HDR set to Game, Peak Brightness at 800 nits, and Paper White at 80.

Interestingly, I know that conventional wisdom is to set in-game peak brightness to 4000 nits when using DTM Off but using 4000 nits is blatantly wrong in RDR2.

It appears these issues have been known for a long time and are likely to never be fixed. I'm just curious what approach some of you have taken.

Turn paperwhite up to 200, keep peak brightness at 800, and turn The LG CX brightness down to 47. I know it's not ideal to be changing settings every time you play something, but I usually just stick with the game until i'm done with it for a while. As far as a fix goes, that's mostly up to Microsoft and if they ever get their **** together and overhaul the HDR in Windows 10. We need additional settings for HDR to look proper. Also, they should be able to auto-toggle HDR content since it uses a completely different color range than SDR(HDR uses BT.2020). Anyways, just thought i'd chime in.

 

[BrainyCabde]

@Lors
This is the best I could do, but you can clearly see the dynamic luminance overshoot at the fringes of the circle.
It is much more noticable in real life, but I guess it is visible enough.
This is just the synthetic test. @DiabolusExMachina and @That Guy Logan have posted how that looks in real content.
Youtube degraded the picture quality a bit. Maybe I can do even better with some more effort.

LG CX Luminance Overshoot "Crawling Blacks" - YouTube

Speaking of Mehanik's Test Files, did you ever happen to check out the banding test he has included. It's in the "04. Colors" folder. The filename is "01. Banding_Rotating-gradients_23.976". It really shows how HDR has much more noticeable banding than SDR. Just curious since I only got one other person's input on this issue. I did file it with LG but never heard back on this issue.

 

[cmdrdredd]

This is why I just stopped using VRR at all.

 

[brandysnap]

1. There is an easy way to test for this issue:
   Download the test pattern "Grey linearization" from the following link (it's free, thanks to Mehanik), play it on the PC in windowed mode and move the player window around the desktop. You will see the overshoot in motion. It's an HDR test file, but you can play it in SDR and HDR.

i just tried that test file on my desktop.
doesnt happen for me.
vlc player in a small/medium or large window. move it around fast/slow and the picture is perfect, both inside and outside the window.

 

[BrainyCabde]

@Lors
This is the best I could do, but you can clearly see the dynamic luminance overshoot at the fringes of the circle.
It is much more noticable in real life, but I guess it is visible enough.
This is just the synthetic test. @DiabolusExMachina and @That Guy Logan have posted how that looks in real content.
Youtube degraded the picture quality a bit. Maybe I can do even better with some more effort.

LG CX Luminance Overshoot "Crawling Blacks" - YouTube

Just tested the "05. Gray Linearization" file and tried it in HDR. when moving the window around on the desktop while the video is playing, it looks like the gray circle in the middle starts to spin or move like a wheel. It's a very slight motion or strobe like effect, but I see that.

Edit - Just tried the same file on my PG279Q monitor which is an IPS monitor and it doesn't happen. It doesn't have any motion or changing of luminance at all. I think that's what i'm looking for anyways. Hope this helps.

Edit 2 - Also noticed it in SDR. Maybe not as much but it's there. One thing that makes it noticeable is when moving the window to the left, the left side of the circle glows brighter almost as if there's a white line around that side of the circle. Same thing when moving the window to the right, there's a faint gray/white line on the right side of the circle. Good find man. Hope we can get that same attention to the banding. I also wonder if this might have something to do with the banding since it's really only noticeable in the darker gradients. Either way, I really hope all this can get some attention and good luck.