AVS Forum banner

841 - 860 of 1264 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,805 Posts
Discussion Starter #842

·
Registered
Joined
·
769 Posts
I wish I had the Captain Picard face palm mime handy. Please keep this form of Cartesian circle out of this thread.
Man, I think the same thing ANY time people use a video of a set for anything other than to show panel defects. Comparing TV's with a video is ridiculous, sorry. There are too many timing issues to ever make motion comparison, yet people do. Colors, forget about it. (face palm for sure) The only reason to watch the shootout is for the discussion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,120 Posts
Man, I think the same thing ANY time people use a video of a set for anything other than to show panel defects. Comparing TV's with a video is ridiculous, sorry. There are too many timing issues to ever make motion comparison, yet people do. Colors, forget about it.
Of course. That'll be why Vincent always explains those things at length. The facepalm is for people who ignore that warning but still use the video to make their own judgements instead of just listening, even though it contains the warning not to do that :) If it helps, turn the screen off and go audio-only?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,805 Posts
Discussion Starter #845
Of course. That'll be why Vincent always explains those things at length. The facepalm is for people who ignore that warning but still use the video to make their own judgements instead of just listening, even though it contains the warning not to do that :) If it helps, turn the screen off and go audio-only?
That video as it relates to DV is a Cartesian product.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Hi everyone

To settle the [Dolby Vision Dark] vs [Dolby Vision Bright] debate on Sony A8, Stacey Spears (of Spears & Munsil fame) kindly helped out. The Dolby Vision of the montage on the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark disc contains trim pass data for 100-nit SDR, 600 nits, 1000 nits and 2000 nits, and linear interpolation will be used between the two nearest trim passes for the reported peak brightness of the display.

We then played a 600-nit HDR10 version of the Spears & Munsil montage from an OPPO 203 player on an LG GX that's been calibrated to track PQ. Using another OPPO 203 player (external HDMI source), we played the Dolby Vision version on the Sony A8. As expected, [Dolby Vision Dark] came closer to matching the APL of 600-nit HDR10 version, while [Dolby Vision Bright] was too bright and clipped more specular highlight detail. I have included a demonstration in my latest video:

https://youtu.be/ANgAuVHAuEg?t=833
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,983 Posts
Hi everyone

To settle the [Dolby Vision Dark] vs [Dolby Vision Bright] debate on Sony A8, Stacey Spears (of Spears & Munsil fame) kindly helped out. The Dolby Vision of the montage on the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark disc contains trim pass data for 100-nit SDR, 600 nits, 1000 nits and 2000 nits, and linear interpolation will be used between the two nearest trim passes for the reported peak brightness of the display.

We then played a 600-nit HDR10 version of the Spears & Munsil montage from an OPPO 203 player on an LG GX that's been calibrated to track PQ. Using another OPPO 203 player (external HDMI source), we played the Dolby Vision version on the Sony A8. As expected, [Dolby Vision Dark] came closer to matching the APL of 600-nit HDR10 version, while [Dolby Vision Bright] was too bright and clipped more specular highlight detail. I have included a demonstration in my latest video:

https://youtu.be/ANgAuVHAuEg?t=833
Thanks Vincent for taking the time to explain, it is despite a few on here, much appreciated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,421 Posts
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cam1977

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
You can use eARC for all of your devices if you like, but I wouldn't recommend it. With my A9G, I have all devices connected to my AVR and use eARC only for internal TV apps. For that configuration, eARC works well enough if I limit output to DD. However, given all of the eARC glitches, I would not trust it to pass lossless audio properly, though I have never tried, and would rather adjust the picture mode occasionally.
Can you have individual picture modes for each input on your receiver? How would the receiver pass-thru a Dolby Vision Signal from a source like Apple TV?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,147 Posts
Can you have individual picture modes for each input on your receiver? How would the receiver pass-thru a Dolby Vision Signal from a source like Apple TV?
I might be misunderstanding what you are asking, but IMO you are confused about this. The display knows what type of material you are sending it, and automatically sets the picture mode accordingly. For example, if I stream something in 1080p, the display knows it is SDR and will play it in an SDR mode: for my calibrated A9G, Custom Pro1 (for viewing in the dark), Custom Pro2 (for viewing in a bright setting), or Custom (for mid brightness). It is easy in the display's settings to choose among those 3 options, depending on the time of day/the amount of ambient light. If I stream something in DV, the display knows it is receiving DV material and will automatically use DV Bright or DV Dark mode (and I can easily toggle between them in the display's settings). You don't need individual picture settings for each input - what matters is the material the display is receiving (SDR, HDR10, DV, etc), not the external device. I could be sending SDR, HDR10, or DV from my Oppo 205, so having a specific mode for my Oppo does not make sense since the content/resolution I send from the Oppo will vary.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Enovare

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
I might be misunderstanding what you are asking, but IMO you are confused about this. The display knows what type of material you are sending it, and automatically sets the picture mode accordingly. For example, if I stream something in 1080p, the display knows it is SDR and will play it in an SDR mode: for my calibrated A9G, Custom Pro1 (for viewing in the dark), Custom Pro2 (for viewing in a bright setting), or Custom (for mid brightness). It is easy in the display's settings to choose among those 3 options, depending on the time of day/the amount of ambient light. If I stream something in DV, the display knows it is receiving DV material and will automatically use DV Bright or DV Dark mode (and I can easily toggle between them in the display's settings). You don't need individual picture settings for each input - what matters is the material the display is receiving (SDR, HDR10, DV, etc), not the external device. I could be sending SDR, HDR10, or DV from my Oppo 205, so having a specific mode for my Oppo does not make sense since the content/resolution I send from the Oppo will vary.
I do want individual picture modes for each input. I want to control the picture mode according to the source and not let the TV decide the picture mode. The only way I can do this right now is by separating my sources on each TV input and then decide my custom settings. My question was if there is a way to achieve the same by running my sources thru the Denon 3700H and be able to create individual picture modes for each source. Do receivers pass thru Dolby Vision signal if the source is set up as a Dolby Vision like the Apple TV?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,147 Posts
I do want individual picture modes for each input. I want to control the picture mode according to the source and not let the TV decide the picture mode. The only way I can do this right now is by separating my sources on each TV input and then decide my custom settings. My question was if there is a way to achieve the same by running my sources thru the Denon 3700H and be able to create individual picture modes for each source. Do receivers pass thru Dolby Vision signal if the source is set up as a Dolby Vision like the Apple TV?
Sorry, but I don't understand how that is going to work. If you stream DV material from your ATV, the display will automatically select DV Bright or DV Dark. And if you stream SDR or non-DV 4k material from your ATV, you won't be able to select DV Bright/DV Dark. What you suggest will only work if you only use your ATV for DV material, and only use your BluRay player for SDR, and only use some other piece of equipment for non-DV 4k material. And what will you do if you want to play a 1080p BluRay disc from your player one day, and a 4k disc another day? Setting your picture mode by equipment rather than resolution won't work.

Or am I incorrect with what you are trying to do? Are you trying to save different settings as "Custom" for each input? And different DV Bright settings for each input?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Sorry, but I don't understand how that is going to work. If you stream DV material from your ATV, the display will automatically select DV Bright or DV Dark. And if you stream SDR or non-DV 4k material from your ATV, you won't be able to select DV Bright/DV Dark. What you suggest will only work if you only use your ATV for DV material, and only use your BluRay player for SDR, and only use some other piece of equipment for non-DV 4k material. And what will you do if you want to play a 1080p BluRay disc from your player one day, and a 4k disc another day? Setting your picture mode by equipment rather than resolution won't work.

Or am I incorrect with what you are trying to do? Are you trying to save different settings as "Custom" for each input? And different DV Bright settings for each input?
It’s working now connected directly to the tv inputs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,198 Posts
Can you have individual picture modes for each input on your receiver?
Receivers don't do picture modes. Neither your BD player connected to the receiver, nor the receiver, can select Custom/Vivid/Cinema/etc., that is done by the TV. That goes for any component connected to the receiver.

I do want individual picture modes for each input. I want to control the picture mode according to the source and not let the TV decide the picture mode.
You can do individual picture modes for each component connected to your receiver when you change each input on the TV. Each input will remember your settings. Again, sources don't control picture modes.
It’s working now connected directly to the tv inputs.
If it's working now, why not continue with the same setup?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
44 Posts
Receivers don't do picture modes. Neither your BD player connected to the receiver, nor the receiver, can select Custom/Vivid/Cinema/etc., that is done by the TV. That goes for any component connected to the receiver.

You can do individual picture modes for each component connected to your receiver when you change each input on the TV. Each input will remember your settings. Again, sources don't control picture modes.
If it's working now, why not continue with the same setup?
First, you don’t understand how receivers work if you say that you can have individual modes for each component when you change each input on the TV. If your sources are connected via HDMI to your receiver you change your inputs on the receiver and not on the TV. Only one HDMI cable goes from the receiver output to one Tv input.

If you would’ve read my previous post you would understand why Is working now. I am using an optical audio cable which is not the best option.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,805 Posts
Discussion Starter #858 (Edited)
Hi everyone

To settle the [Dolby Vision Dark] vs [Dolby Vision Bright] debate on Sony A8, Stacey Spears (of Spears & Munsil fame) kindly helped out. The Dolby Vision of the montage on the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark disc contains trim pass data for 100-nit SDR, 600 nits, 1000 nits and 2000 nits, and linear interpolation will be used between the two nearest trim passes for the reported peak brightness of the display.

We then played a 600-nit HDR10 version of the Spears & Munsil montage from an OPPO 203 player on an LG GX that's been calibrated to track PQ. Using another OPPO 203 player (external HDMI source), we played the Dolby Vision version on the Sony A8. As expected, [Dolby Vision Dark] came closer to matching the APL of 600-nit HDR10 version, while [Dolby Vision Bright] was too bright and clipped more specular highlight detail. I have included a demonstration in my latest video:
Not sure this post can be classified as settled. The original topic was which DV video mode is best on a Sony OLED-- not just the A8H, but also the A9G and A9F. This post and posts from last week never attempted to validate what I did back in march. Instead it is designed to be a smoke and mirror presentation. 3 videos on this subject leter, this poster has yet to truly tackle the original topic. Instead the poster has


  • Intentionally compared a Sony A8H and LG GX with a Player-Led Dovi signal
  • Intentionally compared a Sony A8H with a Player-Led Dovi signal and a LG GX with a 600nit HDR signal
First bullet point methodology is flawed because the LG handles a Player-Led signal differently compared to a TV-Led signal. I pointed this out back in March. Below are two EOTF curves from a LG CX using a TV-Led and Player-Led signal (I intentionally set CalMan to "Use Measured White Level" instead of manually setting the target White Level to 4000 nit to better view the EOTF):



TV-Led




Player-Led



Grayscale does not track the same either. However, I will intentionally leave that out of this post as it is irrelevant to the subject. The above proves, per measurements, that the video output on a CX via a Player-Led signal will be darker than a TV-Led Dovi signal. Why didn't the poster of what I'm replying to now and last week's posts show this in their 3 videos? You know what... does not even matter anymore. 3 strikes and you're out.

Anyone with a colormeter equal or better than an i1 Display Pro, 2 Oppo 203 UHD Bluray players a reference DoVi pattern source, 2 LG OLEDs (preferably the same model) and calibration software can replicated what I've already done for themselves. Send 1 LG a forced TV-Led signal and the other a forced Player-Led signal. Measure and observe.



Below are DV Bright and DV Dark on a Sony A8H measured with the same reference source patterns and meter as the CX:


DV Bright




DV Dark



Take a look at the Player-Led EOTF from the CX and compare it to DV Dark on the A8H. Similar isn't it? Why? Because it is Player-Led DoVi... Tone mapping is being done in the player. Now look at the TV-Led on the CX and DV Bright on the A8H. Beyond the hard clip on the CX and roll off on the A8H, the CX and A8H track similar. This is why the appropriate way to compare these two brands is to send them each their best handled Dovi signal. For LG, it's TV-Led. Anything less puts the LG at a disadvantage.


Second bullet point methodology is flawed because you are now comparing a static non-tone mapped HDR signal on the LG GX to a dynamic Player-Led Dovi signal on the A8H. How in the world is this a valid comparison? There is zero tone mapping being done on the LG GX, yet the Sony A8H is being fed a 4000 nit mastered Player-Led DoVi signal that has to be tone mapped. Let's not even bring into the argument the fact that DoVi is a dynamic format as was attempted last week. That fact, which BTW was never a debated item, has nothing to do with measuring a DoVi signal. When you calibrate a Dolby Vision on and LG or check the Dolby Vision calibration (HDR too) on a Sony since Sony Engineers know transformative math well enough to negate the need for an end user to have to calibrate Dolby Vision (or HDR) on their products-- this has been the case since the very first HDR capable Sony consumer TV-- you are calibrating/checking the base that the DoVi engine is going to use for DoVi content. This is true for both a TV-Led and Player-Led Dolby signal. This poster last week attempted to make the argument that you are not measuring the TV when using a Player-Led source. You are measuring the Source since the source is doing the heavy lifting with Tone Mapping and Color Processing. Smoke and Mirror tactic everyone.... or more like a Jedi Mind Trick attempt. Below is an example why...

3DLUTs

Let's exclusively use an LG CX or GX as Exhibit A. As most here should know, these two LG OLEDs have user modifiable 1DLUT and 3DLUT tables. These two LG OLEDs are also able to use an external user modifiable 3DLUT, like an eeColor, instead of the internal 1D and 3D LUTs. The eeColor has 1 input and 1 output. So, if a user decides to use an eeColor for their created 3DLUT and then measure the display with a reference source inputted into the eeColor, the video signal would be something like this:

eeColor ==> LG TV HDMI input ==> LG TV 1DLUT ==> LG TV 3DLUT ==> LG TV video processing ==> LG TV screen output. In this example, what is the end user measuring? The TV or the Source? Please note that grayscale, color and gamma are being handled by the eeColor. The correct answer is the end user is measuring the interaction between the eeColor and TV-- aka measuring the TV. This is no different than measuring a Player-Led Dovi signal output from a TV's screen, like the Sony A8H. Would using and measuring the LG CX and GX's built in 1D and 3D LUTs be any different or deemed correct or incorrect compared to an external 3DLUT? Of course not. So, how is it wrong to measure a TV-LED DoVi signal vs. a Player-LED DoVi signal and then say you can only accurately measure a TV-LED DoVi signal and not a Player-LED?


Again, anyone with a colormeter equal or better than an i1 Display Pro, an Oppo 203 UHD Bluray player a reference DoVi pattern source, a Sony OLED and/or a LG OLED can replicated everything I've pointed out on their own. One reference DoVi pattern source that anyone can use is R. Mascioia's downloadable DoVi test patterns. Yes, you will have to purchase these patterns on his site. They are reference and his patterns are also used on the Murideo's Seven G pattern generator.

I'm done with interacting with this poster and this subject on this Forum. You all can have at it.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
327 Posts
I know the topic of Dolby Vision Bright vs Dark has seen two respected calibrators take two divergent opinions.

As in life, there may not necessarily be a right answer.

I will commend Vincent for going into detail in his latest video explaining his point of view.
Same for D-Nice in his last post.

I respect both voices, and hopefully cool heads prevail, no need for dramatics, sometimes it is ok to agree to disagree.
 
841 - 860 of 1264 Posts
Top