AVS Forum banner

861 - 880 of 1264 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,198 Posts
First, you don’t understand how receivers work if you say that you can have individual modes for each component when you change each input on the TV. If your sources are connected via HDMI to your receiver you change your inputs on the receiver and not on the TV. Only one HDMI cable goes from the receiver output to one Tv input.
LOL. Remove that first sentence and we agree. Just plug every component into their correct source on the receiver, then run the receiver setup and you are done. You may want/need to make changes to the receiver, just like you did with the one you currently have, but that's it. Removing the optical cable has no affect on the video side. You should be able to figure everything out from there.

If you would’ve read my previous post you would understand why Is working now. I am using an optical audio cable which is not the best option.
It was late in the evening and I forgot about your optical cable.

You seem to think, or at least it sounds that way to me, the Denon controls what picture mode the Sony is in. There is nothing in your Denon manual that says anything about adjusting the Sony picture modes (Custom, Vivid, Cinema, etc.). Just like there is nothing in the Sony manual that will tell you how to run Audyssey on your Denon. But I think there is confusion everywhere, and at this point I'm giving up. Good luck.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
26,606 Posts
I know the topic of Dolby Vision Bright vs Dark has seen two respected calibrators take two divergent opinions.

As in life, there may not necessarily be a right answer.

I will commend Vincent for going into detail in his latest video explaining his point of view.
Same for D-Nice in his last post.

I respect both voices, and hopefully cool heads prevail, no need for dramatics, sometimes it is ok to agree to disagree.
Sometimes there is a right and a wrong though, numbers do not lie. That conversation is above my knowledge base, I guess that proves we can always learn.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,166 Posts
Sometimes there is a right and a wrong though, numbers do not lie. That conversation is above my knowledge base, I guess that proves we can always learn.....
The fact that two experienced professionals can't come to an agreement on how to measure DoVi kinda tells us that manufacturers and Dolby have over-complicated the implementation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,421 Posts
The fact that two experienced professionals can't come to an agreement on how to measure DoVi kinda tells us that manufacturers and Dolby have over-complicated the implementation.
Or perhaps Sony took the cheaper way to implement it (player led) which has helped cause the complications.

DoVi was originally TV led but Sony would not implement it. So Dolby created player led for Sony. UHD player manufacturers then had to step up to implement player led.

Sony is essentially at the mercy of DoVi player led implementations. Conceptually, they should be the same since Dolby provides the technology to the companies that implement player led.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
406 Posts
@D-Nice Since Player led vs TV led is important for the Sony and LG OLEDs, how does the Panasonic UB820 do it? It doesn't have the option for choosing one or the other like the Oppo, does it do it automatically? And if so is that automatic selection correctly choosing the best one for each tv?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
50 Posts
@D-Nice Since Player led vs TV led is important for the Sony and LG OLEDs, how does the Panasonic UB820 do it? It doesn't have the option for choosing one or the other like the Oppo, does it do it automatically? And if so is that automatic selection correctly choosing the best one for each tv?
I've been researching that player, as I'm thinking of purchasing one. I saw somebody confirm that Sony TVs switch to Dolby Vision mode correctly, so I can only assume player led mode has been implemented correctly on the UB820. Otherwise surely it wouldn't work at all, seeing as Sony doesn't support TV led.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,122 Posts
I've been researching that player, as I'm thinking of purchasing one. I saw somebody confirm that Sony TVs switch to Dolby Vision mode correctly, so I can only assume player led mode has been implemented correctly on the UB820. Otherwise surely it wouldn't work at all, seeing as Sony doesn't support TV led.
It definitely supports both, and IIRC, if a TV (such as an LG) happens to support both TV-led and player-TV, it outputs TV-led "full fat" Dolby Vision (tunnelled in RGB) so the TV does (all of) the tone-mapping using the TV's known (if calibrated, etc) peak brightness value etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
769 Posts
The fact that two experienced professionals can't come to an agreement on how to measure DoVi kinda tells us that manufacturers and Dolby have over-complicated the implementation.
Very true. In addition, I wouldn't be surprised if even more complex challenges have already been overcome in their software that we'll never know about.

But, regardless, there IS a correct implementation!

And in my 20 years of experience with SAN and IP networks, when two engineers (sometimes hot-headed) disagree on how something is working, it usually requires an hour or so at a white board going step by step through the flow and discussing back and forth at each point in the flow. At some point one or both of us have either an "Aha!" moment, or a moment where we realize we were arguing different problems and we actually agree. Posting on a forum is not the best setting for that exchange, by any means.

Sean
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,421 Posts
Very true. In addition, I wouldn't be surprised if even more complex challenges have already been overcome in their software that we'll never know about.

But, regardless, there IS a correct implementation!

And in my 20 years of experience with SAN and IP networks, when two engineers (sometimes hot-headed) disagree on how something is working, it usually requires an hour or so at a white board going step by step through the flow and discussing back and forth at each point in the flow. At some point one or both of us have either an "Aha!" moment, or a moment where we realize we were arguing different problems and we actually agree. Posting on a forum is not the best setting for that exchange, by any means.

Sean
I don't know if @D-Nice and @Vincent Teoh have ever been in the same room together...

it would be a hoot to have them do a youtube vid together. Perhaps a "Point/Counter Point".

They might even become drinking buds.:eek:

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Hi everyone

Is it true that the "smooth gradation" control is broken on the CX?
Or is that only happening on some sets?

Looks like it works fine on the C9, right?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,575 Posts
Very true. In addition, I wouldn't be surprised if even more complex challenges have already been overcome in their software that we'll never know about.

But, regardless, there IS a correct implementation!

And in my 20 years of experience with SAN and IP networks, when two engineers (sometimes hot-headed) disagree on how something is working, it usually requires an hour or so at a white board going step by step through the flow and discussing back and forth at each point in the flow. At some point one or both of us have either an "Aha!" moment, or a moment where we realize we were arguing different problems and we actually agree. Posting on a forum is not the best setting for that exchange, by any means.

Sean
This may be the case but at the end of the day if you use DV Dark on your Sony because that's what you like and looks good to you, just because D-Nice and or Vincent or any other person says use DV Bright for example, are you going to do that even if you like DV Dark better? That said, the analysis is interesting but use what you like best given your room conditions and source.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,122 Posts
Hi everyone

Is it true that the "smooth gradation" control is broken on the CX?
Or is that only happening on some sets?

Looks like it works fine on the C9, right?
Ooop! Wrong thread. Please re-post your question to the LG CX owner's thread.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
769 Posts
This may be the case but at the end of the day if you use DV Dark on your Sony because that's what you like and looks good to you, just because D-Nice and or Vincent or any other person says use DV Bright for example, are you going to do that even if you like DV Dark better? That said, the analysis is interesting but use what you like best given your room conditions and source.
True.

Then I would add that this sub-discussion/argument, which is not about our preferences, but rather whether set A and set B are functioning to standards, has become too esoteric for a thread as general as this one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
This TV’s picture quality looks awesome using custom mode with a few tweaks and compares well against my professionally calibrated Panasonic Plasma. Contemplating whether professional calibration would net any significant gains. Thoughts?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
  • Intentionally compared a Sony A8H and LG GX with a Player-Led Dovi signal
  • Intentionally compared a Sony A8H with a Player-Led Dovi signal and a LG GX with a 600nit HDR signal
First bullet point methodology is flawed because the LG handles a Player-Led signal differently compared to a TV-Led signal.
With player-led Dolby Vision, the tone-mapping is done in the source device. With TV-led Dolby Vision, the tone-mapping is done in the display. Obviously the measurements will be different. TV-led Dolby Vision is superior because of the dynamic metadata handling within the display's (LG's) Dolby Vision engine... you can't just apply [Dolby Vision Bright] picture mode on a player-led Dolby Vision TV (Sony) based on measurements from one single set of test patterns with 4000-nit metadata to try and match TV-led Dolby Vision, and call it a day.

Second bullet point methodology is flawed because you are now comparing a static non-tone mapped HDR signal on the LG GX to a dynamic Player-Led Dovi signal on the A8H. How in the world is this a valid comparison? There is zero tone mapping being done on the LG GX, yet the Sony A8H is being fed a 4000 nit mastered Player-Led DoVi signal that has to be tone mapped.
The more you post, the more it's becoming clear that you don't really understand how Dolby Vision actually works, which shouldn't be surprising given your previous misunderstanding about the benefits conferred by the extra 2 bits in the enhancement layer on Dolby Vision UHD Blu-rays.

Most Dolby Vision video signals, such as the montage on the Spears & Munsil UHD HDR Benchmark disc, contain trim pass data. On Stacey's montage, the available trim passes are 100-nit SDR, 600 nits, 1000 nits and 2000 nits. Because the EDID sent out by the Sony A8H is 668 nits, the Dolby Vision engine on the source device (the OPPO 203 in this case) will be mostly using the 600-nit trim pass for tone-mapping, rather than the 4000-nit master you thought.

So, in fact, the Sony A8H I used in my comparison video was not tone-mapping from 4000 nits at all... it was tone-mapping from an interpolated combination of the 600-nit and 1000-nit trim passes, with the majority from the 600-nit trim pass (since the display's transmitted EDID's peak brightness is 668 nits which is closer to 600 nits than 1000 nits).

With the calibrated LG GX displaying a 600-nit HDR10 version with close to no tone-mapping, and the Sony A8H displaying a Dolby Vision version which was mostly composed of the 600-nit trim pass, my video was as valid as a comparison could get. By comparing the APL (Average Picture Level) on both TVs, I have proven that [Dolby Vision Dark] is the more accurate one since it matches the APL of the 600-nit HDR10 version, whereas [Dolby Vision Bright] was too bright, elevating midtones and blowing out specular highlights.

One reference DoVi pattern source that anyone can use is R. Mascioia's downloadable DoVi test patterns. Yes, you will have to purchase these patterns on his site. They are reference and his patterns are also used on the Murideo's Seven G pattern generator.
Last I checked, Ryan Masciola's Dolby Vision test patterns are full range, and will clip below code value 12-16 on LG OLEDs, as I've shown in the video below... I wouldn't go so far as to call them reference:


Stacey Spear's upcoming Dolby Vision test patterns (included in his new disc) will be limited range, and resolves code value 0 to 12 (and above) correctly on LG OLEDs.

It's probably for the best that you both agree to disagree on this subject and move on.
I genuinely wish I could simply agree to disagree and move on, but when there's an incorrect recommendation repeated ad nauseum that subverts creative intent (the very thing I live and breathe given my profession), unfortunately I have to voice my concern.

Sometimes there is a right and a wrong though, numbers do not lie.
Oh, but numbers do lie. As an example, if we calibrated an LG OLED to D65 white point, calibrated a plasma to D65 white point, and calibrated a Samsung QLED to D65 white point, they will all look perceptually different in terms of colour temperature... it's just that current colour science is not advanced enough to unify the complexities of displays with different spectral power distribution, which is why we have to use perceptual matching and alternate white points.

Likewise, using graphs generated using non-standard methodology/ test patterns that don't reflect real-world perceptual output is meaningless.

Since Player led vs TV led is important for the Sony and LG OLEDs, how does the Panasonic UB820 do it? It doesn't have the option for choosing one or the other like the Oppo, does it do it automatically? And if so is that automatic selection correctly choosing the best one for each tv?
Yes, from my tests, Panasonic players correctly send out TV-led Dolby Vision for LG OLEDs, and player-led Dolby Vision for Sony OLEDs.

Warmest regards
Vincent
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
327 Posts
Sometimes there is a right and a wrong though, numbers do not lie. That conversation is above my knowledge base, I guess that proves we can always learn.....
Numbers most assuredly can lie.

Certain CPU/GPU manufacturers overcooked their silicon when they detected a performance test program was run. Real world be damned.

VW likewise twiddled their diesel engines to beat certain emissions targets. Real world be damned.

In both cases straight up numbers did lie.

Vincent's point is that test patterns can be misleading, the Sony does tonemap Dolby Vision signals, after player-led DV has itself tone-mapped. Hence, it appears best to compare using real world material and compare and contrast with alternate TV DV implementations.

I respect Vincent's position, I also respect those apposed to his position.

What I will say is that Vincent put forth a compelling argument in his last video.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,122 Posts
@Vincent Teoh decrypt your own copy of Spears and Munsil and tell us which stream is exactly the trim pass data.
All i see is 10000 nits mastered DV data on the disc.
That's not how Dolby Vision works. There's one stream which contains all of the trims at the same time. The Dolby Vision engine in the TV selects and uses the correct ones.
 
861 - 880 of 1264 Posts
Top