[MisterMe2]

How much difference will 24 Hz versus 28 Hz (3dB rolloff) make for movies?


E.g. the difference between specs for the Klipsch sub-10 (28 Hz) versus the sub-12 (24 Hz).


I'm interested just in the frequency response (not the greater power of the sub-12).


Will it make a clear difference for the average listener (i.e. not a 'bass expert')


Thanks

 

[theelviscerator]

Get used to hearing silence in a lot of movies during lfe events with either unit.


15hz in room response is more like it..

 

[mcjasonb]

the lower the better.

 

[boarder1995]

Also how well the sub does all the other frequencies below ~80Hz is very important. BUT, digging down just a few more Hz at the bottom is a big difference. There's lots of material down there and below in movies and some good material even in music (electronic, dance, organ, etc.).

 

[Tong Chia]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMe2 /forum/post/16883281


How much difference will 24 Hz versus 28 Hz (3dB rolloff) make for movies?


Will it make a clear difference for the average listener (i.e. not a 'bass expert')


Thanks

Not much. At less than 1/3 octave frequency separation the human ear cannot tell the difference if SPL delta is 6dB or less. This is a common number used to smooth over frequency response curves on acoustic measurement tools like REW


1/3 octave below 28Hz is 22.2Hz

1/3 octave above 24Hz is 30.2Hz

 

[Looneybomber]

As Tong said, FR difference won't be much...if it was the exact same driver and amp (apples to apples). Since you're talking two different subs, you can't compare them.


One of the benefits of having a lower tuning is safety. Below tuning a driver becomes unloaded, operating in essentially free-air. The lower that tuning, the lower the chance of getting a signal of sufficient levels to cause the driver to bottom.


That said, I've owned a Klipsch Sub-12. For a Best Buy product, it's not bad because I was able to get it at an employee discount price. If you can't get an employee discount, I'd look elsewhere for something on sale, like the MFW-15 or even DIY.

 

[MisterMe2]

Thanks for all the responses.


I see what you're saying about apples to apples comparisons and perceptibility. It's just that it seems that the lower range of 12" subs seems to be about 4Hz lower than 10" subs for various manufacturers in the same line. I would have thought that the frequency difference would be a key selling point for the 12" class.


Tong, are you saying that the response of the sub-10 at 24 Hz is likely to be not much worse than 6 dB below the sub-12 at 24 Hz, and therefore not very noticeable? I guess it's not a very linear rolloff so at some point it will drop like a rock?



The sub-12 is actually available this week at BestBuy Canada for $300 Cdn ($270 U.S.), whereas the MFW-15 looks to be about $500 U.S. plus shipping, so that's out unfortunately.

 

[mynym]

if you're set on either the sub-10 and sub-12. I'd pick the SUB-12. It sounded alot cleaner and deeper to my ears.

 

[Tong Chia]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMe2 /forum/post/16886407


Thanks for all the responses.


Tong, are you saying that the response of the sub-10 at 24 Hz is likely to be not much worse than 6 dB below the sub-10 at 24 Hz, and therefore not very noticeable? I guess it's not a very linear rolloff so at some point it will drop like a rock?

On a calibrated setup if the difference is less than 6db you may not be

able to tell the difference.


Unfortunately, trying to ensure the same levels during a store demo is difficult without a SPL meter.


At very low frequencies the sound is heard and felt as vibration.


The sub-10 and sub-12 are bass reflex loaded boxes. Without

equalization these roll off at a rate of 24db/oct ie the sub-10 is 24db down

at 14Hz. The rolloff may be steeper if they applied EQ to extend the low end.


Th other influence on the low end response is the listening room.

 

[MisterMe2]

Thanks. This is very interesting info.


Has anyone plotted subwoofer response compared to 'equal loudness' countours? Because if those are sloping up to the left, then they will also make it hard to percieve those low frequency responses that are rolling off in SPL, right (or am I way out to lunch)?

http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Phon.html

 

[Looneybomber]

Back in the day, I think the sub-12 was around $450 USD (retail) at BB when I picked it up. $270 doesn't sound like a bad deal.

 

[thehun]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMe2 /forum/post/16883281


How much difference will 24 Hz versus 28 Hz (3dB rolloff) make for movies?


E.g. the difference between specs for the Klipsch sub-10 (28 Hz) versus the sub-12 (24 Hz).


I'm interested just in the frequency response (not the greater power of the sub-12).


Will it make a clear difference for the average listener (i.e. not a 'bass expert')


Thanks

Depending on the size of your room, you could expect a few Hz deeper extension and also higher some output level compared to how they test these,but a typical MFR published specs are tend to be optimistic or "exaggerated". Take those with a grain of salt. Rule of thumb buying a sub: buy the biggest you can afford.

 

[spyboy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMe2 /forum/post/16887122


Thanks. This is very interesting info.


Has anyone plotted subwoofer response compared to 'equal loudness' countours? Because if those are sloping up to the left, then they will also make it hard to percieve those low frequency responses that are rolling off in SPL, right (or am I way out to lunch)?

http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Phon.html

Equal Loudness gets virtually no discussion on this Forum. People are interested in ground plane measurements. That take the room out of the equation. Every sub has to deal with things like Threshold of Audibility in the extreme low bass (from about 12 Hz on down).


Some people use equalization (house curve) to get more volume down deep. Others prefer a flat response. Both preferences are valid.


Don't try to overanalize this decision. Go with the Sub 12 ( at least until you can afford something that can rattle your teeth down to below 15 Hz.)

 

[thehun]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMe2 /forum/post/16887122


Thanks. This is very interesting info.


Has anyone plotted subwoofer response compared to 'equal loudness' countours? Because if those are sloping up to the left, then they will also make it hard to percieve those low frequency responses that are rolling off in SPL, right (or am I way out to lunch)?

http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Phon.html

Well that's why the means to move lots of air becomes necessary as the FR descends because the ear's reduced sensitivity. I don't think anyone done a sub plot based on that, but pretty much every reputable subwoofer maker is aware of this fact.

 

[MisterMe2]

from interview with Dr Hsu:
http://www.goodsound.com/features/2001_08_01.htm


"Home-theater subs need not have very extended bass -- high output capability down to 25Hz is sufficient for movie soundtracks. However, home-theater subs do need to be able to play loud, or at least be able to be pushed hard without distress."


And I read that most movie theaters only go down to 25 Hz (not sure if this is true).


But we have the infrasonic proponents in this thread and we have a thread going on the importance of sub-20 Hz, and there are the buttkicker type products which go down as low as 5 Hz as well. It seems that the folks who have infrasonic capability really appreciate it, and Hsu (and others) are helping to enable it.


Do any Hsu owners run their subs in low frequency extension mode for home theater? I had assumed they would until I read Dr Hsu's interview above (it's from 2001, though).


Does anyone have Attack of the Clones on DVD? There's a scene where Obi Wan is chasing Boba Fett through an asteroid field and Boba Fett drops 'concussion bombs' When I watch it, the bombs go off and there is about a couple of seconds where you see the explosion start, but there is silence initially on my current system (rated 28 Hz). I thought they were just doing a 'see it before you hear it' effect, but now I'm wondering if there's anything there (theelviscerator's comment about silence got me wondering).

 

[mojomike]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMe2 /forum/post/16892722


from interview with Dr Hsu:
http://www.goodsound.com/features/2001_08_01.htm


"Home-theater subs need not have very extended bass -- high output capability down to 25Hz is sufficient for movie soundtracks. However, home-theater subs do need to be able to play loud, or at least be able to be pushed hard without distress."


And I read that most movie theaters only go down to 25 Hz (not sure if this is true).


But we have the infrasonic proponents in this thread and we have a thread going on the importance of sub-20 Hz, and there are the buttkicker type products which go down as low as 5 Hz as well. It seems that the folks who have infrasonic capability really appreciate it, and Hsu (and others) are helping to enable it.


Do any Hsu owners run their subs in low frequency extension mode for home theater? I had assumed they would until I read Dr Hsu's interview above (it's from 2001, though).


Does anyone have Attack of the Clones on DVD? There's a scene where Obi Wan is chasing Boba Fett through an asteroid field and Boba Fett drops 'concussion bombs' When I watch it, the bombs go off and there is about a couple of seconds where you see the explosion start, but there is silence initially on my current system (rated 28 Hz). I thought they were just doing a 'see it before you hear it' effect, but now I'm wondering if there's anything there (theelviscerator's comment about silence got me wondering).

It seems as though Dr. Hsu must have completely changed his way of thinking in the years since that interview. The better Hsu subs are fully capable of useful response well below 20hz. There are plenty of movies, usually of the action variety, with strong bass below 20hz. The waterfall charts of the movies prove this. This is not to say that a sub that does not get down there can't sound good, but it will miss out on some of the deepest bass if it is present in the movie.


It is probably true that most movie theaters are not designed to reproduce the deepest bass. The common movie theater is no longer the standard-bearer of the best reproduction of movie sound. Good home theaters now are the standard-bearers. The better Imax theaters are also excellent.

 

[cschang]

In 2001 there were not very many movies with content below 25hz.....and he was/is more concerned with bass dynamics rather than depth. Hsu also had the TN1220 back in 1997 that had great output below the 20hz mark.


Nowadays, with the numbers game, he has to be concerned with depth, even though movies are still screened by directors and editors in screening rooms that do not have much extension below 25hz.

 

[Redskin]



Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMe2 /forum/post/16892722


Does anyone have Attack of the Clones on DVD? There's a scene where Obi Wan is chasing Boba Fett through an asteroid field and Boba Fett drops 'concussion bombs' When I watch it, the bombs go off and there is about a couple of seconds where you see the explosion start, but there is silence initially on my current system (rated 28 Hz). I thought they were just doing a 'see it before you hear it' effect, but now I'm wondering if there's anything there (theelviscerator's comment about silence got me wondering).

That initial silence is there on purpose.

 

[penngray]



Quote:
Originally Posted by theelviscerator /forum/post/16884538


Get used to hearing silence in a lot of movies during lfe events with either unit.


15hz in room response is more like it..

That is very misleading.


I have a system that will do down to 10Hz but I can also set it to play just too 25Hz for tests. 99% of the impact is in the above 20Hz range anyways.


YES its very cool to have 10Hz performance some select scenes but it you are wrong to say LFE events will be silent for him. There are thousands and thousands of movie lovers that have subs that only go to 25Hz and they love their setups and the majority if movies have ZERO sub 25Hz content!!


You also have to remember that movie theaters do not even go below 25Hz either so its not a big deal for the majority out their buying and loving movies.



If the choice was quality 25Hz and above sub vs lower quality sub that goes to 15Hz or so....I would take the quality 25Hz sub, the impact from 20Hz and above is MORE important. Obvously something that does 10Hz to 80Hz perfectly is what we all want but compromises happen!


Also remember that room gain plays a role for some...that 25Hz sub will have performance below 20Hz depending on room placement and room gain.

Quote:
How much difference will 24 Hz versus 28 Hz (3dB rolloff) make for movies?

Not much at all considering the 3dB rolloff!!

 

[Sonies]

The klipsch sub12 is weak when I heard it, get an internet direct 12" ported for the same price and probably twice the output and extension.