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My issue with sub placement in this room is that I don't really have any corners at all. There is a hallway to a bedroom at the corners on either side of the TV, and behind the listening area is wide open and includes the kitchen and dining room. Directly under the TV is going to be a floating cabinet with relatively low clearance underneath. My only option for putting a sub against the wall would be some DIY enclosure that was very wide and short to slide underneath it, which would ruin the look of the floating cabinet. I can't imagine it would be possible to place a sub underneath the left and right speakers, at least in this application where they're not behind an AT screen.
If placing a sub in the middle of thee room next to your couch, you'd want to go with as big and powerful one as possible, since it will have zero room reinforcement. So I'd recommend starting with AT MINIMUM a Hsu VTF-3 or VTF-15 ... you can easily throw some sort of fabric over the top plus a lamp or plant to disguise it, to make your wife happy.

And I'd try to economize on the front L/R and surrounds. I'd look at the Hsu HC-1 for the center and HB-1 for front L/R and their HIW-1 inwalls for surrounds. These are all reasonably priced, aesthetically acceptable, have decently high sensitivity for your Denon X1200 to easily power, and will fit easily into your budget. More importantly, they are slightly rolled off in the treble unlike most horn tweeters, which will insure no ear-bleeding brightness given all the hard reflective surfaces in your space.
 

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Thanks for the heads up about the on-wall surrounds. My mounting location would be a little behind the listening area, which is where I'd want them anyway, but do the wall mounts generally allow for the speakers to be angled towards the couch instead of just firing perpendicular to the wall?

Thanks for your feedback on the Chanes. They are definitely in serious consideration. I heard on some podcast that the company wasn't always super reliable and their customer service was sub-par, but I'll spend some time in the owners thread and see what people are saying. My fronts would actually be a decent distance from the wall behind them, it's only my surrounds that pose an issue. Since behind the listening area is the kitchen, there's no place to put them on stands, and I'll have to wall-mount them up high.
I can't speak for every on-wall, but there's ones with enough options to use various mounting gear options. Either ones that "glues" them to the wall, or ones with swirling and tilting options. I think so also can be used in various positioning due to the wedge design. i.e can be face down or face up, or even on the sides. SVS Prime Elevation for example. The Chane A4.5 is not out yet so I can't speak for that but I know it's going to have pretty versatile mounting options.

Disregard that stupid podcast. From my personal experience (and similar experiences reported by many others), I can tell you their CS is top notch and the products are well liked. They are a small company, so you won't get free returns (you do get home trial) included like you get with slick big and aggressively advertised brands like SVS, Harman etc where free returns are pre-included in the initial price of the product.
 

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Suggestion here are good, but I think with this budget you should look at used speaker in your area. In the used market with that budget you could easily find speaker that had a 2X or more msrp value and get something way better than what you can afford in the "new" market, or just spend way less money for the same quality of build and sound and keep the difference and make the wife happy .... Used speaker in these price range are usually in perfect condition and the risk with going with a used speaker is minimal since there is not a lot of thing you can do to damage them. Good speaker in these price can easy last 20,30,40 years or more, people switch them because they get bored or want to upgrade, or moved out but the deal you can find on the used market are amazing. Tech in speaker from 4 or 5 years ago are not that far behind what your gonna get today, its nothing compared to the video world.

For sub its cheaper than SVS and a amazing product, Monolith by Monoprice 12in THX Ultra Certified 500-Watt Powered Subwoofer - Monoprice.com . I would only buy the sub new since used sub could be damaged or been abused, unlike the 5.0 speaker that support power and output way beyond what people will usually push them even at "reference level".
 

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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
If placing a sub in the middle of thee room next to your couch, you'd want to go with as big and powerful one as possible, since it will have zero room reinforcement. So I'd recommend starting with AT MINIMUM a Hsu VTF-3 or VTF-15 ... you can easily throw some sort of fabric over the top plus a lamp or plant to disguise it, to make your wife happy.

And I'd try to economize on the front L/R and surrounds. I'd look at the Hsu HC-1 for the center and HB-1 for front L/R and their HIW-1 inwalls for surrounds. These are all reasonably priced, aesthetically acceptable, have decently high sensitivity for your Denon X1200 to easily power, and will fit easily into your budget. More importantly, they are slightly rolled off in the treble unlike most horn tweeters, which will insure no ear-bleeding brightness given all the hard reflective surfaces in your space.
I just realized that I am probably overcomplicating the matter: if I just return to focusing on bookshelf speakers instead of towers, I could place the L and R on the floating cabinet I'm having built, and then the space on either side would be open for subwoofer placement. My wife is still not going to be thrilled with a 24" x 24" cube on either side, so I'd have to find something with slimmer dimensions. Is it defeating the point of I turn a sub sideways so the narrower width of the cabinet reduces the distance protruding from the wall, and the driver is firing to the side instead of towards the listening position?

Alternatively, what about something like the SVS Ultra Towers that claim frequency response down to 28Hz?
 

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I just realized that I am probably overcomplicating the matter: if I just return to focusing on bookshelf speakers instead of towers, I could place the L and R on the floating cabinet I'm having built, and then the space on either side would be open for subwoofer placement. My wife is still not going to be thrilled with a 24" x 24" cube on either side, so I'd have to find something with slimmer dimensions. Is it defeating the point of I turn a sub sideways so the narrower width of the cabinet reduces the distance protruding from the wall, and the driver is firing to the side instead of towards the listening position?

Alternatively, what about something like the SVS Ultra Towers that claim frequency response down to 28Hz?
If your that restricted on your sub placement, I full go with tower at full range and no sub the chance of getting better bass is better with the towers in your case. Your room is not a dedicated theater and a bad placed sub could give you way worse result at your listening position than bass comming from your towers specially if you can get decent full range towers. SVS Ultra Towers are bass monster.

You seem to have a lot of design restriction, I would make sure that you have enough space and the flexibility to adjust the center channel so it fires a little upward ( at your face ) and not at your knee. A bad placed center channel is worse than no center channel at all and just going 2.0 for your front speaker could be better.

Im my main living room, I had design restriction like you so I had to go with a 4.0 set up and it sounds and look great. It triggers purist because your AVR need to process the center channel audio into the left and right but it still gives a great result, way better than a badly placed center channel an with great front speaker you can get a really good soundstage and the two at the back provide the surround effect.

You can try the 4.0, then move to 5.0 or 5.1 later or even try it with someone else speaker when you will be installed.
 

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I just realized that I am probably overcomplicating the matter: if I just return to focusing on bookshelf speakers instead of towers, I could place the L and R on the floating cabinet I'm having built, and then the space on either side would be open for subwoofer placement. My wife is still not going to be thrilled with a 24" x 24" cube on either side, so I'd have to find something with slimmer dimensions. Is it defeating the point of I turn a sub sideways so the narrower width of the cabinet reduces the distance protruding from the wall, and the driver is firing to the side instead of towards the listening position?

Alternatively, what about something like the SVS Ultra Towers that claim frequency response down to 28Hz?
Sub bass is omnidirectional, so turning the sub sideways shouldn't make any difference to speak of. If your wife really throws a hissy fit and demands smaller subs, a pair of these might be worth a shot (16" cube), esp. with free return shipping:

If you can do bookshelves on your cabinet, you'll save a buttload of money and (assuming that HT/TV is your priority not music in 2.0 mode) get similar sound quality.

No towers at ANY price, even the ones with the silly built-in subwoofers, can come anywhere close to a real subwoofer, even an entry level $500 sub.

What will be the maximum depth available of the floating cabinet? Specific recs can be given once we know that.
 
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No towers at ANY price, even the ones with the silly built-in subwoofers, can come anywhere close to a real subwoofer, even an entry level $500 sub.
Yes it can, if the sub is in a bad spot the listening position could receive no bass at all. If you go with tower the chance of getting both tower in a dead spot is close to none compared to a badly placed single sub.

Since is his set up, the sub placement is non negociable, even the sub orientation ... its a risk, and no AVR EQ will correct that.
 

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Yes it can, if the sub is in a bad spot the listening position could receive no bass at all. If you go with tower the chance of getting both tower in a dead spot is close to none compared to a badly placed single sub.

Since is his set up, the sub placement is non negociable, even the sub orientation ... its a risk, and no AVR EQ will correct that.
I would disagree. A decent freestanding sub can usually be placed in a reasonable location SOMEWHERE in the room not too far from a corner, or at least next to a wall. It'd be an EXTREMELY unusual room that would be unable to accommodate that. I'd happily take imperfect bass from a freestanding sub over the crappy bloaty weak bass from "built in" subs in some overpriced towers, especially those Def Tech ones.
 
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:ROFLMAO:

Ah, but you need just the right $150 subwoofer cable to bring that REL sub alive !!!
After looking into this sub, it has an 8" active speaker pointing forward and a 10" passive pointing down. So, there is more going on with it than first meets the eye. I am not saying it will beat out a pair of 15" subs.
 

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After looking into this sub, it has an 8" active speaker pointing forward and a 10" passive pointing down. So, there is more going on with it than first meets the eye. I am not saying it will beat out a pair of 15" subs.
Passive woofers get mixed reviews. Bottom line is, it's a solid 8" music sub. Wouldn't be surprised if even a 10" RSL sub would equal or better it in HT, and for just $400.
 

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Discussion Starter #32
Suggestion here are good, but I think with this budget you should look at used speaker in your area. In the used market with that budget you could easily find speaker that had a 2X or more msrp value and get something way better than what you can afford in the "new" market, or just spend way less money for the same quality of build and sound and keep the difference and make the wife happy .... Used speaker in these price range are usually in perfect condition and the risk with going with a used speaker is minimal since there is not a lot of thing you can do to damage them. Good speaker in these price can easy last 20,30,40 years or more, people switch them because they get bored or want to upgrade, or moved out but the deal you can find on the used market are amazing. Tech in speaker from 4 or 5 years ago are not that far behind what your gonna get today, its nothing compared to the video world.

For sub its cheaper than SVS and a amazing product, Monolith by Monoprice 12in THX Ultra Certified 500-Watt Powered Subwoofer - Monoprice.com . I would only buy the sub new since used sub could be damaged or been abused, unlike the 5.0 speaker that support power and output way beyond what people will usually push them even at "reference level".
I'm aware that going used could result in significantly more bang for the buck, but I'm not sure I'm up for that type of hunt. I feel like it may be difficult to find speakers that met my desired specifications, and personally, I feel it's worth buying new to eliminate some of that hassle.

I haven't really done any research on those Monolith subs, but I'll look into them, thanks.

If your that restricted on your sub placement, I full go with tower at full range and no sub the chance of getting better bass is better with the towers in your case. Your room is not a dedicated theater and a bad placed sub could give you way worse result at your listening position than bass comming from your towers specially if you can get decent full range towers. SVS Ultra Towers are bass monster.

You seem to have a lot of design restriction, I would make sure that you have enough space and the flexibility to adjust the center channel so it fires a little upward ( at your face ) and not at your knee. A bad placed center channel is worse than no center channel at all and just going 2.0 for your front speaker could be better.

Im my main living room, I had design restriction like you so I had to go with a 4.0 set up and it sounds and look great. It triggers purist because your AVR need to process the center channel audio into the left and right but it still gives a great result, way better than a badly placed center channel an with great front speaker you can get a really good soundstage and the two at the back provide the surround effect.

You can try the 4.0, then move to 5.0 or 5.1 later or even try it with someone else speaker when you will be installed.
The height of the cabinet was designed with speaker placement as a consideration, so the drivers should line up fairly well towards ear level of somebody sitting on the couch. If necessary, I'll certainly come up with a solution to angle them appropriately.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Sub bass is omnidirectional, so turning the sub sideways shouldn't make any difference to speak of. If your wife really throws a hissy fit and demands smaller subs, a pair of these might be worth a shot (16" cube), esp. with free return shipping:

If you can do bookshelves on your cabinet, you'll save a buttload of money and (assuming that HT/TV is your priority not music in 2.0 mode) get similar sound quality.

No towers at ANY price, even the ones with the silly built-in subwoofers, can come anywhere close to a real subwoofer, even an entry level $500 sub.

What will be the maximum depth available of the floating cabinet? Specific recs can be given once we know that.
Thanks, I'll keep that RSL sub in mind. Those dimensions are reasonable and I could probably get away with placing two against the front wall on either side of the TV. My cabinetmaker is dealing with pneumonia currently but I should have the plans with exact dimensions with a week or so.

Thanks for those specific recommendations, I will check them all out.
 

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Ah, the Wife Acceptance Factor Subwoofer Challenge, round 37,846!
  • Bass sound pressure is generated by moving air. As such, it is all about cone area (AND enough power to move the cone). One data point for you: nothing against Hsu or JL etc, but we added an SVS SB-2000 Pro to a 5.1 Focal system that didn't need it (936, CC900, SR900) and it added a nice something to the bottom. It's a more lovely bottom now ha ha!
  • I tend to prefer towers but if going bookshelf means better integration, hey, go for it, get good sub(s) to fill in the lows.
  • Horns like Klipsch use are sonically polarizing. They can tend to release some delayed musical energy depending on the design, which some folks are probably more sensitive too than others. The horns have improved over generations though-I had their now chief engineer do a horn design to my spec and he is a really smart acoustic guy. I heard an entire Klipsch Atmos setup at a Magnolia Hi-Fi and it was really clear for movies AND music. Didn't sound shrill to me at all and I'm pretty sensitive.
  • So try at home with a reasonable return policy, THAT is the key! AFAIK Crutchfield has pretty good return policies.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
Ah, the Wife Acceptance Factor Subwoofer Challenge, round 37,846!
  • Bass sound pressure is generated by moving air. As such, it is all about cone area (AND enough power to move the cone). One data point for you: nothing against Hsu or JL etc, but we added an SVS SB-2000 Pro to a 5.1 Focal system that didn't need it (936, CC900, SR900) and it added a nice something to the bottom. It's a more lovely bottom now ha ha!
  • I tend to prefer towers but if going bookshelf means better integration, hey, go for it, get good sub(s) to fill in the lows.
  • Horns like Klipsch use are sonically polarizing. They can tend to release some delayed musical energy depending on the design, which some folks are probably more sensitive too than others. The horns have improved over generations though-I had their now chief engineer do a horn design to my spec and he is a really smart acoustic guy. I heard an entire Klipsch Atmos setup at a Magnolia Hi-Fi and it was really clear for movies AND music. Didn't sound shrill to me at all and I'm pretty sensitive.
  • So try at home with a reasonable return policy, THAT is the key! AFAIK Crutchfield has pretty good return policies.
That SVS sub has a pretty minimal footprint, too. I can see myself getting away with two of those against the front wall, thanks. Added to my list!

At this point, I think bookshelves are the better choice, since towers would take up the only free space on the front wall and severely impact my sub placement options.

I plan to spend a lot of time with in-home trials.
 

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That SVS sub has a pretty minimal footprint, too. I can see myself getting away with two of those against the front wall, thanks.
SB = "Sealed Box" = you get 1/2 or 1/3 as much output as a PB ("Ported Box") model.

If you want a small footprint and can spare some vertical space, SVS does make cylindrical subs which nobody else does anymore.
 

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Well, these guys seem to be giving you sound advice to deal with your parameters. I didn’t bother asking the wife before I plopped the Velodyne 18” sub next to the couch and moved here end table elsewhere. Now I’m single and the velodyne is too big to use in my condo. I really can’t blame it on the sub. She liked the boom/boom in the big house we were in. Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #39
SB = "Sealed Box" = you get 1/2 or 1/3 as much output as a PB ("Ported Box") model.

If you want a small footprint and can spare some vertical space, SVS does make cylindrical subs which nobody else does anymore.
I think somebody (maybe you) mentioned the cylindrical sub earlier, but I had brushed it aside thinking I was going to focus on towers for the mains. However, that may work well with the bookshelf left and right channels on the cabinet, and a cylinder (eventually) on either side.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
That's a pretty nice-looking house.
Are you in the Lower 48? I ask, because there are several vendors that won't ship to Hawaii or Alaska.
A Klipsch Reference Premier 5.0 setup sounds like it would fit your budget and volume requirements. I suggest the RP-6000, RP504C, and RP400M speakers, paired with a 12" sub from SVS, HSU, or Rythmik.
With your surround speakers mounted that high, I'm afraid Atmos is not in your future. You need a vertical separation between your ear-level speakers and your Height speakers in order to get a sense of 3D sound. If you can get a pair of speaker stands for the RP-400Ms, then Atmos would be a consideration.
Your current AVR will be perfectly fine to drive this setup with zero issues. If and when you decide to do an Atmos upgrade, then I would recommend a 5.1.4 setup, as you really don't have the room for rear surrounds. This will save you about $1000 on electronics and speakers; or about the cost of a high-output 15" subwoofer.
The Denon 3600/3700 is probably the best BFTB AVR on the market right now, and both can run a 5.2.4 setup without external amplification. There is no NEED to spend $3k on electronics.
There are many other speaker systems within your budget. Any speakers that are 90dB/W/m sensitivity would be fine in your room with an average AVR.
Now that I'm leaning more towards bookshelves, would the RP-600M, RP-600C and RP-500SA be a well-matched combo? I'm thinking that an angled surround speaker is going to help direct the sound down and forward towards the listening position. It seems pretty easy to grab this set from Crutchfield for an in-home test.
 
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