AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a basic understanding of 3:2 pulldown after reading some of the archived posts. My question for everyone: How important is it and should it be considered in major purchase decisions?


I'm considering a Sony KVXBR36 400. This set does not do 3:2 pulldown but will be soon replaced by a KVXBR36 450 that will.


In your opinion is this worth waiting for? In what way does it improve picture quality? Are certain artifacts eliminated?


Also, do you need a DVD player capable of 3:2 pulldown to take advantage of this feature of the TV? My Pioneer DV-37 has a progressive out but I don't think it does 3:2 pulldown.


Thanks everyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
681 Posts
The DV-37 most certainly does do reverse 3:2 pulldown. If your DVD player has it, you don't need to worry about whether the TV has it when viewing DVDs unless you have a TV that locks into one aspect ratio with 480p input (Pioneer Elites, older models from other manufacturers). In that case, you will probably end up outputting an interlaced signal from the DVD player to regain control over aspect ratio, and then you will be using the TV's line doubler, so you would care about reverse 3:2 pulldown.


You'd also care about it when watching film sources from cable, satellite, or OTA.


It's no guarantee that a TV with reverse 3:2 pulldown will produce a good line-doubled picture, but (IMHO) a TV that doesn't have it can't produce a good line-doubled picture. Watch a diagonal edge that moves within the image, if you don't have reverse 3:2 pulldown the edge will appear to crawl.


I dunno how much I would worry about it on a 36" TV. I can definitely spot the line doubler artifacts on a 56" RPTV if the TV doesn't to reverse 3:2 pulldown.


-Jonathan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
119 Posts
but if i have progressive scan output to a HDTV, the 3:2 will help there. no? progressive scan, i thought, means it outputs 480p right to the TV. i don't need (still can use), a line doubler..?..?


thanks,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
Leroy:


When watching non HD programs, you can either stay with the 1080i upconverted signal by your stb, which usually is not very good, or you can send a 480i signal to the TV directly thru the stb's SD ouput. At this point, most HD TV would line double it and display as 480p. If the TV's deinterlacing has 3:2 pull down, the image is usually better than the stb's 1080i signal, especially on film materials. If the TV doesn't have 3:2 pull down, it might not look as good. Then you will need an external video processor that does it, like a iScan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
277 Posts
Victor,


Thanks for the breakdown!!


------------------

To Infinity and Beyond!!!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,999 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by jhue:
unless you have a TV that locks into one aspect ratio with 480p input (Pioneer Elites, older models from other manufacturers). In that case, you will probably end up outputting an interlaced signal from the DVD player to regain control over aspect ratio, and then you will be using the TV's line doubler, so you would care about reverse 3:2 pulldown.


-Jonathan
The new Panasonic RP91 DVD player resolves the problem for sets that lock into Full mode with a 480p source such as my Panasonic 56" HDTV. This progressive player not only does a 4:3 shrink for non anamorphic DVDs when output as 480p, but also does a good zoom with widescreen non anamorphic DVDs. Switching to the S-Video NTSC input for non anamorphic DVDs was never a satisfactory solution for me. So this DVD player is the solution I've wanted for a long time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
830 Posts
The local Circuit City has 36XBR400s running an in-store demo loop, fed by the RF input. I had no trouble seeing line doubler artifacts on this TV. I particularly remember some graphics that looked like colored balls; and the edges of the balls had a stair-stepped appearance to them reminiscent of old lo-res computer graphics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
277 Posts
My understanding is that a set's ability to perform 3:2 pulldown will help you more primarily on sources that enter your set outside of your progressive scan DVD ie. Cable, VHS, etc. I believe most TV's that have the 3:2 feature when fed a progressive signal (480p,720p) or full 1080i this feature is bypassed. Anyone out there please let me know if my assumption is incorrect. Thanks!! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


------------------

To Infinity and Beyond!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
393 Posts
First, let's start out by establishing the ABSOLUTE IMPORTANCE of the inverse telecine (3:2 pulldown detection & compensation) process for re-establishing true progressive-scan, 24 fps images from film-based sources. With simple line-accumulation, you will get from bad to horrendous motion artifact on any scenes with horizontal motion (vertical is less noticeable, but it's there).


However, there are several ways of getting your progressive, 24 fps images:


1. Standard DVD player with a TV which supports 3:2 pulldown detection

2. Standard DVD player with outboard line multiplier supporting 3:2 pulldown detection and display capable of high-band progressive input (480p or better)

3. DVD player with true inverse telecine 480p output and display capable of 480p input

4. HTPC with DVD player and decoder software capable of inverse telecine and 1024p (preferably 72 hz) output with 1024p-capable display (graphics-grade projectors)

5. DVD player with inverse telecine 480p output, outboard line multiplier with 480p input and 960p output and display capable of 960p input (graphics-grade projectors).


The ideal situation for displays greater than 50" would be #5, however such a line doubler does not yet exist. So currently, as low-rent as it seems, the HTPC is your only option for line artifact-free, 24 fps images.


For smaller displays, any of the first 3 would be MORE than adequate, but from a purist's standpoint, #3 would be the best, most direct route.


To cut to the chase and answer your actual question, "Maybe." If you don't mind paying for a decent DVD player with 480p outputs (with 3:2 detection), skip the 3:2 detection in the TV.


David
 

·
AVS Forum Special Member
Joined
·
11,139 Posts
I've been asking in a related thread , about Toshiba's plans to upgrade certain RPTVs for 3:2 pulldown, just what are the visual benefits of non-DVD pulldown. That is, what does OTA/cable etc. NTSC film look like with and without pulldown. Someone here mentioned dot-crawl problems, and dagman in the thread cited talks about motion artifacts for pulldown performed on standard (non-film) NTSC. This reference thread was also cited.


Subject interests me because my RPTV (Philips 64PH9905) doesn't have 3:2 pulldown built in, although I can use it for DVDs with my progressive Toshiba SD-6200 DVD machine. The Philips uses a Genesis microchip, standard in many applications when I acquired the RPTV last summer. All incoming signals, other than progressive (DVD, computer) or HDTV inputs, are deinterlaced by the Genesis circuits. NTSC films (OTA/cable etc.) on the Philips appear exceptionally good, with no trace of dot crawl or motion artifacts. Seems like detailed comparisons between sophisticated deinterlace circuits with good motion compensation versus 3:2 pulldown (or combinations of these techniques) would be useful, especially if set makers such as Toshiba are going to claim a special advantage for 3:2 pulldown. -- John


------------------

STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
393 Posts
Essentially, 3:2 pulldown detection is only important for film-source (24 fps) materials processed using the telecine process. When you watch film-source movies on TV broadcasts, it could benefit from inverse-telecine processing for removing motion artifact. However, watching any video-source footage, straight line accumulation with motion compensation would be the way to go. As long as you watch all your movies on DVD, and all your TV from your TV's tuner, you're good.


David
 

·
AVS Forum Special Member
Joined
·
11,139 Posts
Hi, davidahn. I watch very few DVD films, but frequently watch premium-cable films. Yet, with the motion-compensated Genesis deinterlacing in my Philips RPTV, there's no hint of motion artifacts or other problems that I'm aware of. -- John


------------------

STOP DVI/HDCP AND DFAST
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,378 Posts
Interesting observation John, my Toshiba HDTV has an internal line doubler (deinterlacing circuit) sans 3:2 pulldown. Like you, with a CATV source I notice zero motion artifacts. There are artifacts but they are inherent in my TWC digital feed.


The TV's internal deinterlacing circuit seems to do a great job with CATV, however I notice a big difference between the interlace and progressive outputs of the Toshiba SD-6200. Very strange. When the TV sees a progressive signal it bypassess the internal deinterlacer.

 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top