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Besides possible deeper color saturation, what are the "Significant" improvements that 3 chip DLP can provide over a very good/best 1 chip DLP? (example: marantz VP-11S2)


Not really looking for


Brighter... As I know 3 chip DLP's are usally brighter then 1 chip DLP's.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK /forum/post/15903452


Besides possible deeper color saturation, what are the "Significant" improvements that 3 chip DLP can provide over a very good/best 1 chip DLP? (example: marantz VP-11S2)


Not really looking for


Brighter... As I know 3 chip DLP's are usally brighter then 1 chip DLP's.

You ask a question, but attempt to hamstring the answer by excluding 2 significant factors



The advantages, in no particular order, are....


1. Better color.


2. Massively brighter, if needed


3. Non sequential color....ie no RBE


4. The inherent cost of making one means that the use of high end components does not have a massive impact on cost.


5. Related to above... Other than the cheapest (ie C3X1080 and Lumis) they generally use constant apperture lenses, that lose no light and have close to zero CA. This may not suit everyone.


6. The combination of all the above, when in an appropriate environment, result in an image that is, flat out, the best available.


That includes things like the Meridian 810 or Sony and JVC 4k units, all of which I have tested for my main room.


That should get the ball rolling.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Regards to color...


If you get a 3 chip DLP that can adhere to a perfect Rec. 709 in all three dimensions


Saturation, Hue, & Lightness


and a get 1 chip DLP to do the same, how would a 3 chip have an advantage?



Also why are 3 chip DLP's brighter?


could they not just put in more powerfull, and higher output bulbs on a 1 chip?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK /forum/post/15904057


Regards to color...


If you get a 3 chip DLP that can adhere to a perfect Rec 709. in all three dimensions


Saturation, Hue, & Lightness


and a get 1 chip DLP to do the same, how would a 3 chip have an advantage?

The look of the image is different. It has a solidity and density that 1 chip does not provide. Ive had color perfect machines, of both types, side by side and you can instantly tell the difference.


I think its mainly to do with the sequential nature of single chip, and the wheel speed still being a bit low. There is some information, from the Air Force i believe, that states something like a 48 speed wheel is needed to fully equal 3 chip. Thats never going to happen.


Having said that, this will be an advantage that 3 chip designs willnot enjoy for much longer. The other advantages should still apply.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine /forum/post/15904208


I think its mainly to do with the sequential nature of single chip, and the wheel speed still being a bit low. There is some information, from the Air Force i believe, that states something like a 48 speed wheel is needed to fully equal 3 chip. Thats never going to happen.

I think it was the high 20x range so that basically nobody would see rainbows and LEDs should be able to get us there (like you implied). But I don't know if the non-sequential nature of 3 chip as far as the color primaries would still provide some advantages other than lumens (and the issue that specific projectors may get higher end components, like lenses).


--Darin
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 /forum/post/15904405


I think it was the high 20x range so that basically nobody would see rainbows and LEDs should be able to get us there (like you implied). But I don't know if the non-sequential nature of 3 chip as far as the color primaries would still provide some advantages other than lumens (and the issue that specific projectors may get higher end components, like lenses).

48 sounds better.



I believe the issue is also the structure of the image. The argument being that if color separation is visible then it must effect the actual nature of any given color. I've spoken to engineers who confirm this. The difference is certainly visible.


The issue regarding better components is actually well established. The reasoning employed is that that a 3 chip unit made on cheaply would still be significantly more expensive than a single chip unit. It therefore makes no sense to produce a unit at that price point that produces a mediocre image.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SOWK /forum/post/15903452


Besides possible deeper color saturation, what are the "Significant" improvements that 3 chip DLP can provide over a very good/best 1 chip DLP? (example: marantz VP-11S2)


Not really looking for


Brighter... As I know 3 chip DLP's are usally brighter then 1 chip DLP's.

the only real advantage of a 3 chip DLP over a single chip is brightness


The higher grey scale depth due to the 3 chips having a 3 times longer integration time is not a real advantage because the RGB depth of blue ray discs is only 8 bits


Their are at least 3 manufactures who make single chip projectors which have both DI Variable Iris control they are Benq with the 20,000 and 5000 , Infocus IN83 and Planar. BenQ and Planar also include a variable intensity lamp.


There are some serious manufacturing problems with a 3 chip reflective DlP vs. a single chip.


1. Chip convergence Basically since there are 3 chips they can be out of alignment with each other both horizontally and vertically and with tip and tilt. Sim2 has had problems with its 3 chip projectors in this regard and it is very difficult to get them to replace a projector once you have bought it from them. The Lumis mentioned in this forum was out of alignment by .75 pixels which means at best it has the resolution of a 720P projector.


2. The combining prisms in a three chip projector require a much longer back focal length and induce spherical aberration which has to be corrected by the projector lens. This compromises sharpness. it has been my experience that single chip DLP projectors produce a much sharper image than three chip DLP projectors.


In conclusion: if you do not suffer from eyestrain or see rainbows and you do not need more than 1000 lumens at D65 , stay with a single chip projector when choosing between single chip DLP and 3 chip DLP.
 

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Quote:
48 sounds better.

Wouldn't you want it to be three times the frame rate for optimal performance? I'm sure if I blow smoke rings for a while, I'll come up with the six or seven other issues that would interfere...just not coming to me off the top.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine /forum/post/15905217


Wouldn't you want it to be three times the frame rate for optimal performance? I'm sure if I blow smoke rings for a while, I'll come up with the six or seven other issues that would interfere...just not coming to me off the top.

Thats a good point Dennis, and would be important for an actual implementation.


The number, and I defer to Darin's high 20s here, was not with reference to an implementation, its the actual number that was measured where the issue became irrelevant. I simply thought 48 was the measurement, I wasn't proposing that as an actual spec number.


Obviously if that were to be implemented, I assume we would go to the next higher multiple of frame rate that made engineering, optical and temporal sense.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 /forum/post/15904858


Their are at least 3 manufactures who make single chip projectors which have both DI Variable Iris control they are Benq with the 20,000 and 5000 , Infocus IN83 and Planar.

The InFocus literature for the IN83 makes it look like they have a dynamic iris, but they don't. It is just a manual iris.


As far as DI's go, it looks to me like the Lumis likely has the best implementation so far if we look at native on/off CR, dynamic on/off CR, and how little it makes itself known, at least based on reports so far. That may or may not have much to do with being 3 chip vs 1 chip, but at this point could be said to be an example of where a specific 3 chipper has an advantage at this point. If SIM2 were to put basically the same system into a single chipper and do just as good a job then that may not apply anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Erskine /forum/post/15905217


Wouldn't you want it to be three times the frame rate for optimal performance?

I don't think this really has much to do with frame rate in that way. Playing back at 48Hz or 72Hz (or 96Hz or 120Hz) with 24Hz material makes sense, but the 48 or high 20s number discussed here was a subframe number (the x factor is the number of times all the primaries get updated every frame). Put another way, according to what was passed to me from a TI rep, the Air Force did some studies in the past and found that nobody would see color separations if the colors were updated at something like 28x (although I don't remember the exact number, but it was in the 20s). What that number means is that with 60Hz playback all of the colors would get updates every 1/28th of a frame, or every .6 msec (.2 msec of each if they all got equal time and no deadtime between them). Some LED DLP rear projectors have been reported by TI to run at an equivalent of about 48x, or the same as R, G, and B getting updated in a time that is only about .35 msec (or 3.5 ten-thousandths of a second), although they don't really run them sequentially as R, G, then B all the time from what I was told (they could switch between 2 colors for part of the frame or even have two going at once for short periods).


If we look at the 6x that the Marantz 11S2 can run at, they are about 20% of the way to the high 20s or 13% of the way to 48x, but I think the percentage of the population who actually saw color separations at 6x would be pretty low.


And there is the complication of what x means when playing back at 48Hz or 72Hz, but I won't do that math there. I think that as long as the updates are in the range of the high 20s from 60Hz the rainbows should basically be a thing of the past.


--Darin
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 /forum/post/15905339


The InFocus literature for the IN83 makes it look like they have a dynamic iris, but they don't. It is just a manual iris.


As far as DI's go, it looks to me like the Lumis likely has the best implementation so far if we look at native on/off CR, dynamic on/off CR, and how little it makes itself known, at least based on reports so far. That may or may not have much to do with being 3 chip vs 1 chip, but at this point could be said to be an example of where a specific 3 chipper has an advantage at this point. If SIM2 were to put basically the same system into a single chipper and do just as good a job then that may not apply anymore.




--Darin

the planar and the BenQ do have a dynamic Iris.

the better numbers on one lumis are derived from measurements made by enthusiasts.

I do not know of any professional reviewer who has ever reviewed a 1080p sim2 projector


What do you think is going to give a sharper image a single chip DLP projector with a back focal length of 20 mm or a 3 chip dLP with a back focal length of 60 mm and 25 mm to 50 mm of glass inducing 3rd 5th and 7th order aberrations which have to be corrected for by the projector by adding more elements up front? How far does a DLP panel on a 3 chip have to be decentered with respect to the green panel before it degrades to the resolution of a 720p , 480p projector. How far in tip and tilt?


My point is that the variation in performance in 3 chip projectors from projector to projector is great.


Given the 8 bit limit depth on source material and using an osram lamp with a good DI implementation other than power output, do you agree or disagree that a single chip DlP should give a better delivered performance on average than a 3 chip dlp. This assumes that you are not effected by rainbows.


My prediction would be that the planar 8150 should give the best consistently delivered image performance of any single chip or 3 chip dlp on the market and would even have a higher probability of delivering this performance if it incorporated the dark ship 4 and the new insights TI has found for optimizing the optics.
 

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Quote:
What do you think is going to give a sharper image a single chip DLP projector with a back focal length of 20 mm or a 3 chip dLP with a back focal length of 60 mm and 25 mm to 50 mm of glass inducing 3rd 5th and 7th order aberrations which have to be corrected for by the projector by adding more elements up front? How far does a DLP panel on a 3 chip have to be decentered with respect to the green panel before it degrades to the resolution of a 720p , 480p projector. How far in tip and tilt?

I have to take some exception to this. by that logic, my portable camcorder will have better forcus et all than a broadcast sony with some big canon glass on it...


we have to factor in that the level of engineering, and the QUALITY of the glass going on that 3 chip is in most cases better. in some cases FAR better.


That seems far too simplistic a view. and it has been my experience that when you take (just about) any decent 1 chip, then A/B it on the same screen (or do a side by side) with (just about) any decent 3 chipper... and most everyone will prefer the 3 chipper. obviously we can find cases of an individual model of one typ ethat kicks the crap out of the other, but that is the exception and not the rule.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 /forum/post/15984609


the better numbers on one lumis are derived from measurements made by enthusiasts.

Totally incorrect, on all points. Not all measurements were taken by enthusiasts at all. They were also not the result of testing one unit. The initial numbers seen here were actually derived from 4 units.


Some tests were of the most stringent nature, with SOTA equipment. Those were similar to Alan's and Wolfgang's numbers. ISCO in/out numbers, for brightness and ANSI, were actually validated by ISCO themselves.


You will also find that none of the tests results supplied out by the 3 people involved, totally independently, were of the fabricated nature we have seen elsewhere.
 

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I have found 1 chip DLP to show more banding due to its color bit depth. Add to this the color wheel is filtering high end information. 1 chip can look sharper but that is edge sharpness. Comparing to a well converged 3 chip DLP the 3 chip will always display more detail.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger /forum/post/15988726


I have found 1 chip DLP to show more banding due to its color bit depth. Add to this the color wheel is filtering high end information. 1 chip can look sharper but that is edge sharpness. Comparing to a well converged 3 chip DLP the 3 chip will always display more detail.

This may have been true before the pulsed lamp and brilliant color technology using the Osram or Vidi lamps were introduced and before a workable DI was introduced but since they have been introduced ,this is not true now because another 2 bits to 4 bits of depth has been added. Before these innovations the single chips had barely enough time to achieve 256 levels of grey. The least significant bit is close to at 22 usec the switching speed of dlps 15 usec and tricks like dithering the signal both spatially and temporarily were used to overcome this and in some cases caused artifacts


with the OSram pulsed lamp and brilliant color technology developed jointly by Osram and TI these artifacts are gone.


No doubt the 3 chip dlp can display a larger bit depth because it has 3 times the amount of time over a single chip to do so but that's a mute point because the highest RGB bit depth is only 8 bits


The qualifier "well converged" is the key to the problem. on a 3 chip to hold a half chip decenter you have to position and hold that the blue and red chip to the green chip to get half a pixel convergence to 5 microns and you still have tip tilt and rotation tolerances to consider.


during Cedia I compared the Sim2 Ht3000E which was the first projector to use the Osram lamp technology developed by Texas Instruments against their 3 chip 1080p. I went back 4 times and compared those two projectors and the Sim2 ht3000 was sharper , had richer colors and had better blacks.

The three chip was brighter. However I asked people around me whcih projector they preferred and to a man they all liked the image of the 3000e to the 3CX 1080p


It was noted in the Lumis Cheerleader forum after the ravings subsided that the projector they were raving about had a misconvergence of .75 pixels. that may not seem like much but it is enough to degrade the resolution in many scenes to that of a 720P projector.


Misconvergence is much worse than lateral color because it degrades the image at the center of the eye's vision where the eye has 6 times the resolution it does at its periphery.


there is no doubt in my mind that if you happen to be one of the lucky ones who happen to get a perfectly converged 3 chip Lumis from Sim2 with the dark chip 4 that you will be very happy with that projector but you also have a very good chance of getting one that is out of convergence "Quecumber" and when that happens you have paid an awful lot for a very bright low resolution projector and since their is no specification on convergence and Sim2 in the past has been extremely reluctant to replace projectors that work but under perform than you the owner will have a problem. They will just tell you it is in spec ,which of course, is true because there is no specification on convergence.


You make a single chip dlp projector with a dark chip 4, a good projector lens Ti's brilliant color with a good DI and an Osram lamp and except for power out no 3 chip projector will in production consistently be capable of competing with it.


Once they start making RGB leds with enough power the days of 3 chip projectors for use inside the home will be over as long as the bit depth on blue ray discs is only 8 bits.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 /forum/post/15984609


Given the 8 bit limit depth on source material and using an osram lamp with a good DI implementation other than power output, do you agree or disagree that a single chip DlP should give a better delivered performance on average than a 3 chip dlp.

...

My prediction would be that the planar 8150 should give the best consistently delivered image performance of any single chip or 3 chip dlp on the market and would even have a higher probability of delivering this performance if it incorporated the dark ship 4 and the new insights TI has found for optimizing the optics.

I am buying a Planar 8150, but I suspect that I would like the images from the Lumis more overall. I should get to see a Lumis fairly soon, but unfortunately I probably won't get to see the 2 even close in time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 /forum/post/15992119


No doubt the 3 chip dlp can display a larger bit depth because it has 3 times the amount of time over a single chip to do so but that's a mute point because the highest RGB bit depth is only 8 bits

Sources like Blu-ray are 8 bit component (basically YCbCr) and have a gamma component which basically needs to be reversed. I doubt that this can be converted to RGB and have the gamma in the range of 2.2 to 2.5 applied without extra errors if those only end up in 8 bits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 /forum/post/15992119


It was noted in the Lumis Cheerleader forum after the ravings subsided that the projector they were raving about had a misconvergence of .75 pixels.

That claim looks pretty misleading to me given that the projector has digital shift functionality that should mean about .5 pixels max misconvergence in the center of the image. The corners or other areas could be off more of course, but where did your .75 pixel misconvergence claim come from?


--Darin
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 /forum/post/15992119


It was noted in the Lumis Cheerleader forum after the ravings subsided that the projector they were raving about had a misconvergence of .75 pixels. that may not seem like much but it is enough to degrade the resolution in many scenes to that of a 720P projector.


Again you grossly distort the facts, and demonstrate a rather weak understanding of the subject. Pointing out your continual errors and misrepresentations is becoming rather monotonous. I also see that every time you are proven wrong you simply fail to acknowledge the facts and clarifications that are given to you.


Firstly not all the PJs had that level of MC. I provided extreme close-up photos showing excellent convergence. I believe Alan's was also good.


Secondly, if the center MC was .75 pixel, then that is easily adjusted to 0.25. I would be happy with an overall center MC of 0.75 for this reason.


Your whole post, and many recent posts, simply smack of agenda and bitterness. I'm not the only one to have noticed and I'm not the only one to have publicly called you on it. It goes way back before the fabricated test results we saw posted.
 

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Quote:
Your whole post, and many recent posts, simply smack of agenda and bitterness

Mlang seems to really like the Sim 3000e so that statement isn't totally accurate, unless of course he has a bitterness and agenda towards 3 chip machines, but that seems unlikely IMO
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeycalda /forum/post/15993130


Mlang seems to really like the Sim 3000e so that statement isn't totally accurate, unless of course he has a bitterness and agenda towards 3 chip machines, but that seems unlikely IMO

Hmmm....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 /forum/post/15992119


It was noted in the Lumis Cheerleader forum after the ravings subsided...


... you also have a very good chance of getting one that is out of convergence "Quecumber" and when that happens you have paid an awful lot for a very bright low resolution projector and since their is no specification on convergence and Sim2 in the past has been extremely reluctant to replace projectors that work but under perform than you the owner will have a problem. They will just tell you it is in spec ,which of course, is true because there is no specification on convergence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 /forum/post/15992119


When was a Sim2 projector ever reviewed by a technical reviewer?


You want me to pay 6 times more for a projector, show me the specs.


You say the lens is superior in the Lumis show me the MTF curves that come with every lens that is purchased. I know they have them


perform a double blind tests on screen with lumens balanced to 16 ft lamberts and compare the lumis against the RS20, the Marantz 11S2 Benq 20000 and if the lumis is not considered dramatically better on each and every movie scene than , not just incrementally , than I say you got nothing


Show me baby.


And remember this "Just because you sleep and have sex with your overpriced 3 chip DLP projector does not mean you understand her"
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlang46 /forum/post/15992119


the problem is that Sim2 is having problems producing this product and Sim2 does not stand behind their products. If you get a defective product or a poor performing product It is like trying to pull teeth to get them to replace it.


Once you have given them your money "Forget about it"

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...


There are horror stories to be had with every projector company, many of which can be read here. But for most of the good companies, you can find many more instances where they did take care of their customers; and Sim2 seems to be one of them (I've not owned one yet, but I'll do a mea culpa if this is wrong in the future when I do).


Dude, you got some serious issues to get over with Sim2. We get it. You don't like them. You want their MTF data and they won't share! Time to move on...
 
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