3 Chip DLP's vs. high end CRT's?
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I have been using a VistaPro Plus for almost a year, but I have very little experience with CRTs. In any case, the VistaPro has certain advantages over CRT that stand out in my mind. They are as follows:
Light output. The VistaPro produces 1300 lumens.
Ease of maintenance. The VistaPro needs virtually no maintenance besides replacing the lamp.
No "burn-in".
The image quality is very similar to CRT, especially in terms of color accuracy. However, it falls slightly short in a few categories. The black level is not as good as CRT, but that is to be expected with any digital projector. Also, the pixel structure or "screen door effect" may be visible if you sit too close to the screen. Finally, the 848x600 native resolution may be lower than what the 8-inch or 9-inch CRT can resolve.
If you place a lot of importance on color accuracy, then I think that you will be impressed by the VistaPro.
Light output. The VistaPro produces 1300 lumens.
Ease of maintenance. The VistaPro needs virtually no maintenance besides replacing the lamp.
No "burn-in".
The image quality is very similar to CRT, especially in terms of color accuracy. However, it falls slightly short in a few categories. The black level is not as good as CRT, but that is to be expected with any digital projector. Also, the pixel structure or "screen door effect" may be visible if you sit too close to the screen. Finally, the 848x600 native resolution may be lower than what the 8-inch or 9-inch CRT can resolve.
If you place a lot of importance on color accuracy, then I think that you will be impressed by the VistaPro.
Thanks for the input Eric.
One more question:
The $1000 bulb that only last 1000 hours bothers me.
I"ve heard from some sources that these bulbs will go
"way beyond" the stated l000 hour expectancy
However, someone else told me not to push it beyond the
1000 hours because you run the chance of ruining the balast.
And finally, the balast is said to be very, very expensive
from Electrohome, but I hear you can buy them directly from the balast manufacturers pretty cheaply.
Can you, or someone, address these issues?
One more question:
The $1000 bulb that only last 1000 hours bothers me.
I"ve heard from some sources that these bulbs will go
"way beyond" the stated l000 hour expectancy
However, someone else told me not to push it beyond the
1000 hours because you run the chance of ruining the balast.
And finally, the balast is said to be very, very expensive
from Electrohome, but I hear you can buy them directly from the balast manufacturers pretty cheaply.
Can you, or someone, address these issues?
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5,964 Posts
Gee, I'm hooked on my bright colorful smooth images on my 12' wide screen with a Runco DTV-991. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
Vern Dias
Vern Dias
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2,027 Posts
I'm a little confused on all this obsession with "bright". I use a Barco 808 with 8" tubes, projecting onto a 110" diagonal 16:9 screen. By all accounts I'm pretty much at the limit of what you would want to do with this projector, although I am not overdriving the contrast.
I watch movies in a dark room, and don't consider this to be a drawback, but a benefit.
What would more raw lumens buy me? It's plently bright when the scene calls for it, and when it's supposed to be dark it's pitch black. It's just the right amount of bright as far as I'm concerned. How could it be brighter without completely washing out the image?
I don't understand where the concept of watching a movie with the lights on came from, and why having a "brighter" projector is considered a solution...
I watch movies in a dark room, and don't consider this to be a drawback, but a benefit.
What would more raw lumens buy me? It's plently bright when the scene calls for it, and when it's supposed to be dark it's pitch black. It's just the right amount of bright as far as I'm concerned. How could it be brighter without completely washing out the image?
I don't understand where the concept of watching a movie with the lights on came from, and why having a "brighter" projector is considered a solution...
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760 Posts
Hi Jim,
I think that Frank was referring to "large" screens as in 12'+ wide. Unless perhaps one stacks 9" CRTs (and then some), at that size screen one is very likely to get a way too dim, unwatcheable picture.
As for the original question, Tim, I would choose the 3-Chip DLP (and digital in general), because for me there is just no substitute for a huge picture in recreating that illusion of cinema we're after at home. Small screens just don't give them goosebumps as do large screens, if you have the room for them.
Luca
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PICTURES OF MY THEATER
albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1659592&a=12715694&f=0
[This message has been edited by propeller_beach (edited 07-23-2001).]
I think that Frank was referring to "large" screens as in 12'+ wide. Unless perhaps one stacks 9" CRTs (and then some), at that size screen one is very likely to get a way too dim, unwatcheable picture.
As for the original question, Tim, I would choose the 3-Chip DLP (and digital in general), because for me there is just no substitute for a huge picture in recreating that illusion of cinema we're after at home. Small screens just don't give them goosebumps as do large screens, if you have the room for them.
Luca
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PICTURES OF MY THEATER
albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1659592&a=12715694&f=0
[This message has been edited by propeller_beach (edited 07-23-2001).]
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5,964 Posts
Frank, you are correct about the definition of bright. Bright is always relative. I would rather trade pure lumens for accuracy of image. In my career as a projectionist, I have been in a few theaters where the image was too bright. The 24 fps of film is doubled to 48 inturruptions per second with a two blade shutter, and a side effect of excessive brightness is excessive flicker on bright scenes.
Since you are in Houston and I am in the DFW area, do you ever get up this way?
Vern
Since you are in Houston and I am in the DFW area, do you ever get up this way?
Vern
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16,981 Posts
While a CRT will have the best black and depth nothing beats the color on a 3 chip dlp. Theres not one CRT projector that comes close to the color a 3 chip reproduces.
It is the most vivid and accurate color you will see.
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Alan Gouger
Thanks for supporting AV Science.
www.avscience.com
It is the most vivid and accurate color you will see.
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Alan Gouger
Thanks for supporting AV Science.
www.avscience.com
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4,836 Posts
Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but when calibrating a CRT front projector for white level aren't you supposed to set for the 'brightest' image you can get before blooming sets in?
Translation: Brighter is better!
One way I look at it is this:
Movie theaters using film have to be pretty dim to avoid 48 frame per second flicker.
Images from Crts have to be pretty dim to avoid overdriving the tubes.
Digital projectors on the other hand don't have to be dim.
They are limited only by heat dissipation issues.
Dark scenes look best when viewed via CRT front projection without a doubt, on the other hand, light scenes look best when viewed via digital projector.
Which looks more realistic with your pupils fully dilated;
the desert scenes from 'Lawrence of Arabia' at 12 footlamberts or at 50? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
Frank
| I don't understand where the concept of watching a movie with the lights on came from, and why having a "brighter" projector is considered a solution... |
Translation: Brighter is better!
One way I look at it is this:
Movie theaters using film have to be pretty dim to avoid 48 frame per second flicker.
Images from Crts have to be pretty dim to avoid overdriving the tubes.
Digital projectors on the other hand don't have to be dim.
They are limited only by heat dissipation issues.
Dark scenes look best when viewed via CRT front projection without a doubt, on the other hand, light scenes look best when viewed via digital projector.
Which looks more realistic with your pupils fully dilated;
the desert scenes from 'Lawrence of Arabia' at 12 footlamberts or at 50? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
Frank
Joined
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16,014 Posts
Quote:
Luca,
The size of the picture is not just a function of screen size alone. As in a commercial theater, the actual image size you will be seeing is equally dependent on the viewing distance. For example, in my small theater room I use only a 100" diag screen. But from my front seating (the recliner closest to the screen) I'm seeing an image that may be even as big as that seen by Dean McManis from his further distant seating.
Bob Wood
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~ The Sultan of Cheap ~
| there is just no substitute for a huge picture in recreating that illusion of cinema we're after at home. |
The size of the picture is not just a function of screen size alone. As in a commercial theater, the actual image size you will be seeing is equally dependent on the viewing distance. For example, in my small theater room I use only a 100" diag screen. But from my front seating (the recliner closest to the screen) I'm seeing an image that may be even as big as that seen by Dean McManis from his further distant seating.
Bob Wood
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~ The Sultan of Cheap ~
TEW,
Unfortunately no one is really answering your question. I don't think that there is a real answer that works for everyone. If you like incredible color accuracy and a wonderful bright image then 3 chip DLP is for you. If you enjoy dark movies you might suffer a little.
You and I spoke about the balast issue, I am working on getting the specs and balast replacement number from a former associate in the A/V industry. Whomever told you that running a bulb past 1000 hours could damage the balast was telling you the truth. The way that the CERMAX bulb is powered leads this condition to occur. Sort of funny since a low cost fuse in-line with the bulb would have solved this issue. {Sigh, gotta love manufacturers}
Hope that helps a little. Please trust Alan in the color representation, it is spellbinding. BUT, it is very viewer dependant. You might love the color, but hate the black levels.
Good Luck.
Unfortunately no one is really answering your question. I don't think that there is a real answer that works for everyone. If you like incredible color accuracy and a wonderful bright image then 3 chip DLP is for you. If you enjoy dark movies you might suffer a little.
You and I spoke about the balast issue, I am working on getting the specs and balast replacement number from a former associate in the A/V industry. Whomever told you that running a bulb past 1000 hours could damage the balast was telling you the truth. The way that the CERMAX bulb is powered leads this condition to occur. Sort of funny since a low cost fuse in-line with the bulb would have solved this issue. {Sigh, gotta love manufacturers}
Hope that helps a little. Please trust Alan in the color representation, it is spellbinding. BUT, it is very viewer dependant. You might love the color, but hate the black levels.
Good Luck.
Quote:
Uhhh, Frank...that's your translation perhaps.
While you are correct that most guides like Avia suggest you up the White Level (contrast) to just below the point of blooming but this is done to achieve balance. Remember, you also have to set black level (brightness) and the adjustments interact. Avia takes this into consideration when providing instruction on making these adjustments.
After setting white level to just below the point of blooming on my XG110 and then adjusting black level I find that I must go back and adjust down the white level to achieve a balanced picture (i.e. whites appear white and bright and blacks are black and fine shadow detail comes forth).
To make these adjustments in a vaccuum, as your post tacitly suggests, is a mistake.
But harkening back to my "looks good" criteria if you prefer 50 foot lamberts and can get it then by all means please do so.
--Jerome
[This message has been edited by jsaliga (edited 07-23-2001).]
| Originally posted by Frank: Correct me if I'm wrong but when calibrating a CRT front projector for white level aren't you supposed to set for the 'brightest' image you can get before blooming sets in? Translation: Brighter is better! |
While you are correct that most guides like Avia suggest you up the White Level (contrast) to just below the point of blooming but this is done to achieve balance. Remember, you also have to set black level (brightness) and the adjustments interact. Avia takes this into consideration when providing instruction on making these adjustments.
After setting white level to just below the point of blooming on my XG110 and then adjusting black level I find that I must go back and adjust down the white level to achieve a balanced picture (i.e. whites appear white and bright and blacks are black and fine shadow detail comes forth).
To make these adjustments in a vaccuum, as your post tacitly suggests, is a mistake.
But harkening back to my "looks good" criteria if you prefer 50 foot lamberts and can get it then by all means please do so.
--Jerome
[This message has been edited by jsaliga (edited 07-23-2001).]
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Having seen G90's and Vision Ones at shows along with Christies and NEC 3 chip Dlps it gets down to two main things.
Black level and Screen size.(sure thre are a few more issues like setup and running costs but in my view for most people who can afford these its either a big big screen that bright or black depths that can make it seem like its almost film)
IMHO if you want a screen bigger than 7-8ft get a Dlp. If you want good 3d depth of field and deep black "blacks" get a 9" Crt.
I have both a Crt and a Dlp. I use the Crt for critical watching and the Dlp for day to day stuff.(not a 9" and not a 3 chip because these cost a lot of $$ and I am married, so I can not have every toy I want)
DavidW
Black level and Screen size.(sure thre are a few more issues like setup and running costs but in my view for most people who can afford these its either a big big screen that bright or black depths that can make it seem like its almost film)
IMHO if you want a screen bigger than 7-8ft get a Dlp. If you want good 3d depth of field and deep black "blacks" get a 9" Crt.
I have both a Crt and a Dlp. I use the Crt for critical watching and the Dlp for day to day stuff.(not a 9" and not a 3 chip because these cost a lot of $$ and I am married, so I can not have every toy I want)
DavidW
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760 Posts
Hi Bob,
Granted. However, I was putting my argument in context with the whole brigthness issue being discussed. I also have a 100" wide screen that gives me the illusion just fine of immersiveness in my relatively small 10'x20' room (screen is wall to wall and I seat 8 feet back). But if I had say a 20'x30' room to work with, I'd just HAVE to resort to digital technology to give me a wall to wall picture. No CRT can ever attempt to do that.
Cheers,
Luca
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PICTURES OF MY THEATER
albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1659592&a=12715694&f=0
Granted. However, I was putting my argument in context with the whole brigthness issue being discussed. I also have a 100" wide screen that gives me the illusion just fine of immersiveness in my relatively small 10'x20' room (screen is wall to wall and I seat 8 feet back). But if I had say a 20'x30' room to work with, I'd just HAVE to resort to digital technology to give me a wall to wall picture. No CRT can ever attempt to do that.
Cheers,
Luca
------------------
PICTURES OF MY THEATER
albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1659592&a=12715694&f=0
Uh. . .
I'll probably get my head ripped off here, but has anyone noticed this?
CRT HAS HIGHER BLACK LEVEL THAN THEATER PROJECTION OF FILM!
In other words, if the goal is "film-like" then one would think we should expect, if not want, black level that is more like the movie theater than a cathode ray tube. For example, the monitor I am looking at right now, a 21" Nec Multi Sync, has far blacker black then you could ever see in any front projector.
Now I have to admit I have never seen any FPTV, digital or CRT to equal the combination of the Sony G90 CRT and Faroudja processing that Faroudja demoed at CES two years ago. But in that demo I also saw a picture that was better than anything I've seen in a movie theater.
My point is this: When we start comparing our favorite projectors to "film-like" as defined by what we typically see in a movie theater, IMO the best of the DLPs equal or exceed that performance already. The CRTs being discussed here often go beyond that, but with tradeoffs in other areas of HT design and utility.
Particularly as one's setup diverges further from the idea of total light control and room geometry which allows the projector to be placed out of the way, CRT becomes harder and harder to use and digital becomes increasingly attractive. That's the problem I'm working with--in our room we'd have to sit with the projector in our laps and limit viewing to night time.
Just my $0.02.
Interesting thread! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
Dan Houck
I'll probably get my head ripped off here, but has anyone noticed this?
CRT HAS HIGHER BLACK LEVEL THAN THEATER PROJECTION OF FILM!
In other words, if the goal is "film-like" then one would think we should expect, if not want, black level that is more like the movie theater than a cathode ray tube. For example, the monitor I am looking at right now, a 21" Nec Multi Sync, has far blacker black then you could ever see in any front projector.
Now I have to admit I have never seen any FPTV, digital or CRT to equal the combination of the Sony G90 CRT and Faroudja processing that Faroudja demoed at CES two years ago. But in that demo I also saw a picture that was better than anything I've seen in a movie theater.
My point is this: When we start comparing our favorite projectors to "film-like" as defined by what we typically see in a movie theater, IMO the best of the DLPs equal or exceed that performance already. The CRTs being discussed here often go beyond that, but with tradeoffs in other areas of HT design and utility.
Particularly as one's setup diverges further from the idea of total light control and room geometry which allows the projector to be placed out of the way, CRT becomes harder and harder to use and digital becomes increasingly attractive. That's the problem I'm working with--in our room we'd have to sit with the projector in our laps and limit viewing to night time.
Just my $0.02.
Interesting thread! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
Dan Houck
Quote:
Are you suggesting that a direct view monitor has darker blacks than a CRT projector reflecting off of a screen? I seriously doubt it.
I do agree with you that black levels in a film based comercial theater are no where near as dark as a CRT projector.
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Mark A. Torre
NEC XG-8"CRT PJ, HTPC, HDTV and loving it! The Torre Home Theater
| Originally posted by DanHouck: For example, the monitor I am looking at right now, a 21" Nec Multi Sync, has far blacker black then you could ever see in any front projector. |
I do agree with you that black levels in a film based comercial theater are no where near as dark as a CRT projector.
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Mark A. Torre
NEC XG-8"CRT PJ, HTPC, HDTV and loving it! The Torre Home Theater
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