[GeekGirl]

OK, 3-D TV is coming. Aside from all the conjecture, physiology, and marketing pitch swirls, what really matters is what the equipment can do. That means compliance with standards. I tried to find the baseline SMPTE, MPEG, etc. reference standards for 3-D, but I'm coming up short.


3-D is unique in that there are 2 items in the optical transmission path before the photons hit your eyes: the TV and the viewing glasses. It's not just the display or just the glasses, it's the sum of the two. You have to consider the moving image (over time) as well as color accuracy.


So, we have:

Reference sources for calibration (test patterns, etc.)

Requirements that 3-D displays must meet

Requirements that the viewing glasses must meet.

Test equipment needed.


How is the calibration process done- One eye, both eyes? Variation over distance?


First step is to understand the quantitative aspects, then we get to the subjective aspects (and all the discussion).


Can anyone point to the actual standards, or articles that show how to apply the standards? I know we have a Display Calibration forum, but nothing on 3-D there and the moderators are moving threads to this forum.

============================================================ ===========


Info gathered so far:

SMPTE
3DTV Standards Face Multiple Obstacles (Television Broadcast, Jan 20, 2010)

MPEG
3D Video & The MVC Standard (Nokia)

- The MVC (Multiview Video Coding) amendment of H.264/AVC was created as a collaborative effort in the Joint Video Team (JVT) among several dozen participating companies.

 

[Lee Stewart]

As of Today (AFAIK) SMPTE has yet to complete their 3D standards


From Jan 20, 2010:

http://www.televisionbroadcast.com/article/93370


As far as MPEG, their AVC extention MVC is going to be used for the encoding of 3D BD's. Here is a PDF on AVC-MVC:

www.research.nokia.com/files/3D_Video.pdf

 

[taz291819]

This is something that does need to be addressed.


I can tell you with my Samsung, when you put it in 3D mode, blacks have a reddish tint when viewed with the naked eye. Once you put on the shutter glasses, everything looks fine.


Just looking through the shutter glasses are normal things, everything seems to have a greenish tint (but nowhere near as extreme as the red tint on the display), which doesn't make a lot of sense.


I wish there was a way to calibrate, but currently, there isn't one.

 

[davehancock]



Quote:
Originally Posted by GeekGirl /forum/post/18222550


OK, 3-D TV is coming. Aside from all the conjecture, physiology, and marketing pitch swirls, what really matters is what the equipment can do. That means compliance with standards. I tried to find the baseline SMPTE, MPEG, etc. reference standards for 3-D, but I'm coming up short.


3-D is unique in that there are 2 items in the optical transmission path before the photons hit your eyes: the TV and the viewing glasses. It's not just the display or just the glasses, it's the sum of the two. You have to consider the moving image (over time) as well as color accuracy.


So, we have:

Reference sources for calibration (test patterns, etc.)

Requirements that 3-D displays must meet

Requirements that the viewing glasses must meet.

Test equipment needed.


How is the calibration process done- One eye, both eyes? Variation over distance?


First step is to understand the quantitative aspects, then we get to the subjective aspects (and all the discussion).


Can anyone point to the actual standards, or articles that show how to apply the standards? I know we have a Display Calibration forum, but nothing on 3-D there and the moderators are moving threads to this forum.

Good question. I have raised this question in a private (non-AVS) forum that most active calibrators participate in. So far, no one has had any experience yet (all too new). I have an initial approach in mind and will be working with a local dealer when he gets his first displays to develope an approach. Undoubtedly, the other calibrators there will do the same thing and we will share our observations with each other in that forum.

 

[GeekGirl]

So there's no list of standards that I could keep post #1 updated with the latest and greatest? Wow, this is worse than I thought.

OK, let's throw down the (virtual) challenge! Post your stuff here and keep it focused on standards and calibration.


Test equipment - anyone got a dedicated calibrator for this yet? What's going on with the headgear (for lack of better term)?


And, most importantly, who's figuring out how to combine the display with the headgear?


Think of it like this - you've got a great audio system with custom processor, bi-amped wiring, etc. Then, you hook it up to a Bose TV speaker. Without a standard, how are you going to know that the Bose TV speaker is the limiting factor?


Perhaps that's why taz291819's glasses might have a greenish tint. How do you measure that against the Sammy? Will those glasses also look greenish with a Toshiba?


Proprietary solutions don't work. Who's got the market share? Perhaps I should ask SONY (Betamax) or Toshiba (HD-DVD)...

 

[Lee Stewart]



Quote:
Originally Posted by GeekGirl /forum/post/18224054


So there's no list of standards that I could keep post #1 updated with the latest and greatest? Wow, this is worse than I thought.

OK, let's throw down the (virtual) challenge! Post your stuff here and keep it focused on standards and calibration.


Test equipment - anyone got a dedicated calibrator for this yet? What's going on with the headgear (for lack of better term)?


And, most importantly, who's figuring out how to combine the display with the headgear?


Think of it like this - you've got a great audio system with custom processor, bi-amped wiring, etc. Then, you hook it up to a Bose TV speaker. Without a standard, how are you going to know that the Bose TV speaker is the limiting factor?


Perhaps that's why taz291819's glasses might have a greenish tint. How do you measure that against the Sammy? Will those glasses also look greenish with a Toshiba?


Proprietary solutions don't work. Who's got the market share? Perhaps I should ask SONY (Betamax) or Toshiba (HD-DVD)...

The "standard" will follow HD's standard. 6500K will still be the reference point.


The main issue is the brightness of the image that reaches the eye through the active shutter glasses. So yes, the white level will have to be higher for 3D content than 2D content. And when you raise the white level, you will have to adjust the black level in the opposite direction to maintain a proper contrast ratio/Grey Scale.


Color Saturation? LOL - most people have their HDTVs calibrated too high when it comes to Color Sat. to begin with.

 

[davehancock]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224121


The "standard" will follow HD's standard. 6500K will still be the reference point.

But that may have to be modified if the glasses add a color shift (I mean that the viewer should "see a D65 neutral gray through the glasses - what is on the screen might have to be different to achieve that.*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224121


The main issue is the brightness of the image that reaches the eye through the active shutter glasses. So yes, the white level will have to be higher for 3D content than 2D content.

This will potentially raise an issue with white clipping - particularly with Plasmas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224121


Color Saturation? LOL - most people have their HDTVs calibrated too high when it comes to Color Sat. to begin with.

You might want to rephrase that to:

Quote:
most people have their HDTVs set too high when it comes to Color Sat.

If it is set to high it isn't calibrated.


*What will be desirable is for sets to have two sets of calibrated settings. One for 2D and another for 3D. Ideally there should be 4:

2D Calibrated Day

2D Calibrated Night

3D Calibrated Day

3D CAlibrated Night

 

[GeekGirl]

I updated post #1 with what I have so far. The comments in the TVB article point to a web site called 3D TV Information . I block ads and there's no info whatsoever who's behind this site. So, I consider it a 3-D marketing (consumer level) site.


If you look at the topics near the bottom, you'll see Ghosting and Field of Depth mentioned.

Ghosting appears to be another name for video channel cross-talk.
Field of Depth is another name for Depth of Field. Why did they change the order of the name? Even if the intended use is different, it's just plain stupid. Especially if you do photography.

As for the glasses (headgear?):

- Good point about the white and black levels. How much optical attenuation is allowed before you compromise the display output dynamic range? (davehancock - I have a 63" Sammy plasma...)


- What's the allowable optical distortion of the lenses? Pin-cushioning, chromatic dispersion, and everything else that applies to a lens. Frequency response flatness (Infra-red to Ultraviolet)?

 

[Lee Stewart]



Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock /forum/post/18224364


But that may have to be modified if the glasses add a color shift (I mean that the viewer should "see a D65 neutral gray through the glasses - what is on the screen might have to be different to achieve that.*

Why would the glasses add a color shift? They are Neutral Grey

Quote:
This will potentially raise an issue with white clipping - particularly with Plasmas.

More an issue of blooming and loss of resolution then clipping. We will probably see a calibration BD for 3D in the near future to assist in keeping any negatives from affecting PQ when adjusting a 3DTV.

Quote:
You might want to rephrase that to:If it is set to high it isn't calibrated.

No - I phrased it properly. Even when people use a calibration disc, almost all the time, they set the color sat. too high. The eye/brain is not a good judge of color sat. You really need a colorimeter to do a proper job. The rule of thumb for color sat. is . . less is more. Always best to have a display professionaly calibrated.

Quote:
*What will be desirable is for sets to have two sets of calibrated settings. One for 2D and another for 3D. Ideally there should be 4:

2D Calibrated Day

2D Calibrated Night

3D Calibrated Day

3D CAlibrated Night

As with all HDTVs, seperate inputs can be adjusted independently of each other. 3D isn't going to look good in a well lit room. That will be one of the requirements for watching 3D - full control of room lighting as in as little as possible, with none being the preference/recommendation.

 

[Lee Stewart]



Quote:
Originally Posted by GeekGirl /forum/post/18224379


I updated post #1 with what I have so far. The comments in the TVB article point to a web site called 3D TV Information . I block ads and there's no info whatsoever who's behind this site. So, I consider it a 3-D marketing (consumer level) site.

The site isn't giving accurate info:

Will I have to buy a new Blu-Ray Disc player?

Quote:
If you have a HDMI 1.3 and BD-Live (Profile 2.0) compatible Blu-Ray Disc player, there is downloadable software to update rather than having to buy a new Blu-Ray player. However, the image is not as sharp as the new HDMI 1.4

http://www.3dtvinformation.com/?q=node/10

 

[davehancock]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224545

Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View

But that may have to be modified if the glasses add a color shift (I mean that the viewer should "see a D65 neutral gray through the glasses - what is on the screen might have to be different to achieve that.

*Why would the glasses add a color shift? They are Neutral Grey

Because many have reported glasses as having a "tint". But IF a particular set does not have a perceptable color shift - that would be great. That's the first thing that I check out when my dealer gets some sets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224545

Quote:
This will potentially raise an issue with white clipping - particularly with Plasmas.

More an issue of blooming and loss of resolution then clipping.

Those were characteristics off CRT displays. No 3D CRT displays have yet been announced. But what would I know - I only have 4K posts and clearly someone with 12K MUST know more about this than me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224545

Quote:
You might want to rephrase that to:If it is set to high it isn't calibrated.

No - I phrased it properly. Even when people use a calibration disc, almost all the time, they set the color sat. too high. The eye/brain is not a good judge of color sat. You really need a colorimeter to do a proper job. The rule of thumb for color sat. is . . less is more. Always best to have a display professionaly calibrated.

You are right about the bolded parts - and without that meter it isn't calibrated! (And Calibration is what I do - so thanks for that plug

)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224545


As with all HDTVs, seperate inputs can be adjusted independently of each other.

INCORRECT!

• Many current HDTVs do not have seperate adjustments for different inputs (THX mode for Panny's for example).
• But the issue relates to differences between 2D viewing & 3D viewing - that would often be on the same input!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224545


3D isn't going to look good in a well lit room. That will be one of the requirements for watching 3D - full control of room lighting as in as little as possible, with none being the preference/recommendation.

Particularly with Plasmas!. But folks are still going to have 2D/3D operations. And most folks are still going to have their 3D TVs in a room with windows, etc. And what about watching weekend sports from ESPN 3D? To accomodate that, a Day mode is needed.

 

[Lee Stewart]



Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock /forum/post/18224823


Because many have reported glasses as having a "tint". But IF a particular set does not have a perceptable color shift - that would be great. That's the first thing that I check out when my dealer gets some sets.

Were the 3DTVs in question calibrated?

Quote:
Those were characteristics off CRT displays. No 3D CRT displays have yet been announced. But what would I know - I only have 4K posts and clearly someone with 12K MUST know more about this than me!

No - you can still lose the very high bandwidth signal section of HD by setting the whilte level too high. This is very easy to see if you have a BD calibration disc. Just put on the resolution test pattern and start playing with the white level and watch what happens to the finest lines - 800 and above.


And you have the test pattern with the 3 blocks, one on top of the other with the blacker than black and black bars on the left. Pay close attention to the outlines of the top white box as you continue to increase the white level.

Quote:
You are right about the bolded parts - and without that meter it isn't calibrated! (And Calibration is what I do - so thanks for that plug

)

I always promote professional calibration

There is a difference between the best that you (the consumer) can get out of your display using a test disc, a handful of adjustments and your eyes versus the best the display is actually capable of in the hands of an experienced pro who is using expensive analyzer equipment and the service menu.

Quote:
INCORRECT!

• Many current HDTVs do not have seperate adjustments for different inputs (THX mode for Panny's for example).
• But the issue relates to differences between 2D viewing & 3D viewing - that would often be on the same input!

Particularly with Plasmas!. But folks are still going to have 2D/3D operations. And most folks are still going to have their 3D TVs in a room with windows, etc. And what about watching weekend sports from ESPN 3D? To accomodate that, a Day mode is needed.

You are citing one CEMs product inb a special mode versus ALL the HDTVs out there? AFAIK, they all have the ability to set different PQ adjustments for each input independent of each other. Setting the adjustments on HDMI Input 1 isn't going to affect what is adjesyed on HDMI Input2 nor Component Input 1 or 2


Professional calibrators charge extra for each input. You don't?

 

[davehancock]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224924


Were the 3DTVs in question calibrated?

Doesn't matter (if they were calibrated, if the viewer noted a color shift when he put the glasses on then the glasses shift the color (incidently, I think I noted a shift to green in the photos of glasses that you posted). But I won't KNOW for sure till I get my hands on some and measure them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224924


No - you can still lose the very high bandwidth signal section of HD by setting the whilte level too high. This is very easy to see if you have a BD calibration disc. Just put on the resolution test pattern and start playing with the white level and watch what happens to the finest lines - 800 and above.

BS, absolute BS Lee! There is NO loss in high frequency bandwidth (at least in digital displays). I've calibrated HOUNDREDS of LCD & Plasma displays (some LCoS & DLP too) and know exactly what happens. BTW: I use an Accupel HD signal generator that gives very high accuracy patterns. I do use BD Calibration DVDs (some are real junk) to verify performance through the BD player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224924


And you have the test pattern with the 3 blocks, one on top of the other with the blacker than black and black bars on the left. Pay close attention to the outlines of the top white box as you continue to increase the white level.

Sounds like you are talking about your CRT projector Lee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224924

Quote:
INCORRECT!


* Many current HDTVs do not have seperate adjustments for different inputs (THX mode for Panny's for example).

* But the issue relates to differences between 2D viewing & 3D viewing - that would often be on the same input!


Particularly with Plasmas!. But folks are still going to have 2D/3D operations. And most folks are still going to have their 3D TVs in a room with windows, etc. And what about watching weekend sports from ESPN 3D? To accomodate that, a Day mode is needed.

You are citing one CEMs product inb a special mode versus ALL the HDTVs out there? AFAIK, they all have the ability to set different PQ adjustments for each input independent of each other. Setting the adjustments on HDMI Input 1 isn't going to affect what is adjesyed on HDMI Input2 nor Component Input 1 or 2

Isn't the Panny what you are "hot for"? (I like the Panny's myself). That isn't the only one.


But you are ignoring the 2nd (and more important point). If you switch from 3D to 2D for watching DVDs/BDs from you new 3D BD player (for all sorts of reasons), it would be good to have the TV switch modes so to compensate for the absence (or presence when going from 2D to 3D) - with the SAME input!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18224924


Professional calibrators charge extra for each input. You don't?

I didn't say anything about that, but many calibrators these days charge one price for up to 3 inputs. I haven't yet decided my pricing for 3D. I expect that others will do the same.

 

[taz291819]

My display is calibrated, by myself with a Spyder. It doesn't make a difference, once I turn on 3D mode, there is a color shift towards red.


I can't explain why once I put on the shutters that the shift goes away, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[davehancock]



Quote:
Originally Posted by taz291819 /forum/post/18225118


My display is calibrated, by myself with a Spyder. It doesn't make a difference, once I turn on 3D mode, there is a color shift towards red.


I can't explain why once I put on the shutters that the shift goes away, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

In other words the glasses have a shift. That's why the red color shift of the display goes away when you put the glasses on.


Taz, could you please refresh us as to what is the set-up that have (better yet, put it in your signature so it is there in every post). I'm pretty sure that you are running a conventional display and using a PC setup for the 3D. When you say "turn on 3D mode" what are you doing? If I am right about your using a PC set=up, I suspect that the video card in the PC is introducing the compensating shift.

 

[taz291819]



Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock /forum/post/18225164


In other words the glasses have a shift. That's why the red color shift of the display goes away when you put the glasses on.


Taz, could you please refresh us as to what is the set-up that have (better yet, put it in your signature so it is there in every post). I'm pretty sure that you are running a conventional display and using a PC setup for the 3D. When you say "turn on 3D mode" what are you doing? If I am right about your using a PC set=up, I suspect that the video card in the PC is introducing the compensating shift.

No, the display itself is doing the color shift. With my display, as long I send it a [email protected] signal, I can turn on the 3D mode.


Here are some pics, taken from my cheap ass cell phone:


First, 3D off, just a regular display of the desktop:
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4517/0228102206.jpg


Second, 3D on, exact same desktop:
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8864/0228102208.jpg


btw, I will edit my Sig. But for this post, I'm using a Samsung HL61A750, connected to a HTPC, with IO shutter glasses and it's emitter.

 

[davehancock]



Quote:
Originally Posted by taz291819 /forum/post/18225222


No, the display itself is doing the color shift. With my display, as long I send it a [email protected] signal, I can turn on the 3D mode.


Here are some pics, taken from my cheap ass cell phone:


First, 3D off, just a regular display of the desktop:
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4517/0228102206.jpg


Second, 3D on, exact same desktop:
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8864/0228102208.jpg

Well what is your set-up (Model TV, Signal Source, PC video card, software, etc.).

 

[Lee Stewart]



Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock /forum/post/18225108


Doesn't matter (if they were calibrated, if the viewer noted a color shift when he put the glasses on then the glasses shift the color (incidently, I think I noted a shift to green in the photos of glasses that you posted). But I won't KNOW for sure till I get my hands on some and measure them.

AFAIK, all the shutter glasses are neutral gray. Don't judge by looking at a picture. Common sense tells us this.

Quote:
BS, absolute BS Lee! There is NO loss in high frequency bandwidth (at least in digital displays). I've calibrated HOUNDREDS of LCD & Plasma displays (some LCoS & DLP too) and know exactly what happens. BTW: I use an Accupel HD signal generator that gives very high accuracy patterns. I do use BD Calibration DVDs (some are real junk) to verify performance through the BD player.


Sounds like you are talking about your CRT projector Lee.

Nope - just the nature of how excessive white level affects performance.


If you were doing a calibration, why would you push the white level near 100%?


I don't own a CRT projector. Haven't for years (2002)


Maybe we can get some independent verification of this from other members who have either the HD DVD or BD test discs from Joe Kane. They all have the resolution chart test pattern.

Quote:
Isn't the Panny what you are "hot for"? (I like the Panny's myself). That isn't the only one.

There are at least 15 HDTV CEMs with well over 100 different models. How many don't have independent adjustment on each input?


And I do not use ANY special modes an any display I have owned. And all have been Pro. Cal'd.

Quote:
But you are ignoring the 2nd (and more important point). If you switch from 3D to 2D for watching DVDs/BDs from you new 3D BD player (for all sorts of reasons), it would be good to have the TV switch modes so to compensate for the absence (or presence when going from 2D to 3D) - with the SAME input!

That assumes the same input has different memory screens/selections for different devices attached to it.


Have we seen specifications of announced 3DTVs that discuss this?

Quote:
I didn't say anything about that, but many calibrators these days charge one price for up to 3 inputs. I haven't yet decided my pricing for 3D. I expect that others will do the same.

How long does it take you to calibrate 3 inputs and what do you charge for the total calibration?

 

[taz291819]



Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock /forum/post/18225247


Well what is your set-up (Model TV, Signal Source, PC video card, software, etc.).

Samsung HL61A750, HTPC, and IO shutter glasses with the IR emitter. For video samples, I use "Stereoscopic Player", and for PC games, I use the iz3D driver, since it's free for ATI cards (using the DLP output).

 

[davehancock]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart /forum/post/18225252

Quote:
But you are ignoring the 2nd (and more important point). If you switch from 3D to 2D for watching DVDs/BDs from you new 3D BD player (for all sorts of reasons), it would be good to have the TV switch modes so to compensate for the absence (or presence when going from 2D to 3D) - with the SAME input!

That assumes the same input has different memory screens/selections for different devices attached to it.

Statement is not clear. Rather than guessing about what you are saying here, I will wait for a clarification. (But it is bedtime on the East Coast, so I can't answer till another day

)