AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
73 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My 34XBR910 was delivered yesterday. I have it hooked up to a Denon DVD-1600 through component progressive scan.


The picture is pretty amazing but I have one slight concern and maybe someone here at the forum can answer this question.


On films with an aspect ratio of 2.35 : 1, the TV will of course display small black letter box bars.

On this TV, the first one or two lines of pixels after the black bars is lighter in color than the rest of the picture.

The effect is is almost as if someone has drawn a light colored line dividing the black bar and the picture.


Is this something to do with overscanning or underscanning?

Is it something an ISF Tecnicial could fix in the service menu?

Has anyone else seen what I am talking about or am I mad


Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,501 Posts
I'm not sure I can give you a definitive answer on this, but it's not caused by underscanning or overscanning. On 2.35AR DVDs, the black letterbox bars are actually part of the MPEG frame itself.


In some cases, the enhanced edges seem to be an unfortunate side effect of digital edge-enhancement in the DVD video image itself. However, even if there isn't EE in the DVD, razor sharp edges like this are prone to enhancement by the sharpening/EE on some DVD players, and the TV itself (Sharpness, Velocity Modulation, DRC Clarity controls), as well as the basic A/D-D/A conversion/processing in the circuits of the TV. If your convergence is off that could possibly be adding to the effect as well.


The easiest thing you can do is dial back any sharpness/EE controls on the TV and DVD player (if any). Some of the display modes on the TV may also tend to enhance these edges more than others. I would think that Pro mode would add the least enhancement, while Vivid would add the most.


The upconversion/scaling of 480i to 480p/960i could also be a contributing factor. If you're using an interlaced DVD player, Cinemotion usually works best for film-based DVDs, but you might try the other options as well and see if the different scaling/de-interlacing has an effect. A progressive or more expensive DVD player might also combat this a bit... possibly.


Bypassing some of the D/A processing in the TV using a DVI player @1080i with "Montreal's bypass" (see Signal Processing link in my signature) might also help a little, but that's opening a whole other can of warms and would be a rather extreme step for such a minor issue.


TVs as a rule of thumb just don't handle super sharp high contrast edges all that well. DVD authors should probably add a little anti-aliasing to their bars to keep them from "ringing". But often this seems not to be done.


I basically just ignore it. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
73 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for the information, Adu.


I have tried nearly everything that I can think of to try to get rid of these blasted lines.


I've tried Pro mode, with Sharpness at minimum, amd VM off.

I've tried a new DVD Player - the Samsung HD931.


Nothing seems to help.


The TV is adding about two lines of lighter pixels and then what appears to be a thin black thread line (not the guide wires) after the black letterbox bars.


How could I tell if my convergence is off?


Would it be worth my while to pay an ISF tech to come out to my house and look at the problem?


I love the picture on this TV but if I cannot get this problem solved I will be sending it back to Circuit City in a week or two.


Thanks again for your assistance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,501 Posts
I think the AVIA or VE disks may have convergence test screens. However, the phenomena you describe does not sound like convergence. It sounds exactly like edge enhancement. If the EE is in the DVD itself, you won't be able to remove it. If you can give some specific common titles that seem to have this problem, then perhaps I or someone else can compare. One DVD I can tell you you right off the bat which seems to exhibit this on my system is Star Wars Episode I. DVDs with EE will also have these same kidn of halos, or rings around other high contrast edges as well.


Another thing to look at are any digital enhancement settings on your DVD player. Some players may also add enhancement that's beyond your control. Also, the Samsung 931 may not be the best choice to remove this. I suspect it may add some sharpening to the picture in it's scaling routines. (FWIW, scaled DVDs look much softer on my HTPC than on the Samsung.)


Also dial back your DRC Clarity controls. Try 1,1.


It's possible for some edge-related effects like this (ringing/overshoot) to originate in the picture tube too. Frankly there are so many ways that these problems can be introduced on CRTs, it's fairly hard to keep a handle on them all. It sounds like most of it could be in the DVDs though, so far.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
73 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by ADU
I think the AVIA or VE disks may have convergence test screens. However, the phenomena you describe does not sound like convergence. It sounds exactly like edge enhancement. If the EE is in the DVD itself, you won't be able to remove it. If you can give some specific common titles that seem to have this problem, then perhaps I or someone else can compare. One DVD I can tell you you right off the bat which seems to exhibit this on my system is Star Wars Episode I. DVDs with EE will also have these same kidn of halos, or rings around other high contrast edges as well.


Another thing to look at are any digital enhancement settings on your DVD player. Some players may also add enhancement that's beyond your control. Also, the Samsung 931 may not be the best choice to remove this. I suspect it may add some sharpening to the picture in it's scaling routines. (FWIW, scaled DVDs look much softer on my HTPC than on the Samsung.)


Also dial back your DRC Clarity controls. Try 1,1.


It's possible for some edge-related effects like this (ringing/overshoot) to originate in the picture tube too. Frankly there are so many ways that these problems can be introduced on CRTs, it's fairly hard to keep a handle on them all. It sounds like most of it could be in the DVDs though, so far.
I am attaching a screenshot from The Fifth Element so you can see the problem that I have been talking about.


I have actually tried two different DVD players, the DVD-1600 and the HD931 in an attempt to be rid of this problem.


I have tried interlaced mode with DRC Custom Palette at 1,1.


I find it hard to believe that this problem could be evident will all the 2.35AR discs that I own.


My suspicion is that the Sony TV is adding some king of edge enhancement to the letterbox edge.... but I could be wrong, as I know less than nothing about Sony's technology.


At this point I am losing patience. A TV that cannot display films in 2.35AR without these kinds of issues is just not worth owning.


Any final suggestions before I nail the lid on the coffin of my 34XBR910 would be appreciated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,771 Posts
That is odd. Indeed. Stumped. Anyone?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,501 Posts
I don't have a copy of Fifth Element here to compare. But maybe someone else does... Is this the Superbit or Theatrical version, and is it Fullscreen 2.35, or Anamorphic 2.35?


Have you tried playing these DVDs on a PC? And do you see the same lines on it?


I see similar lines on my 34xbr800 with DVDs that contain edge enhancement, but usually they're not that prononounced. Do all the 2.35AR DVDs have that noticeable a line, or is the variation?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,501 Posts
I don't know about most, but certainly many of my 2.35AR DVDs have some visible edges on them top and bottom. Not this pronounced though. And the higher contrast I use could be a contributing factor on my TV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
73 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
This is the SuperBit 2.35AR Anamorphic DVD.


I have tried the same DVD on my PC and see no enhancement to the letterbox edge that I am seeing on the 34XBR910.


All 2.35AR DVD's that I have tried have this line. There is variation to how visible the line is and this is determined by what is next to the letterbox edge. Mid range tones seem to make the line more evident wheras black tones seem to make the line disappear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
242 Posts
The 34XBR800 I used to have is where I first saw this. I posted about this on www.hometheaterforum.com and there was a thread about it for a bit. You can see either this slight lightening or thin black line in almost every dvd though it is more prominent with ones that have significant edge enhancement applied (like Die Hard: With A Vengeance) This is visible on every display I have viewed these dvd's on and the films I have seen it on range from good quality (Star Wars: Episode 2 and Fellowship of The Ring, with Episode 2 I see the lightening and with Fellowship I see the black line) to piss poor edge-enhanced butcherings (Giant and Die Hard: With A Vengeance)


The people at hometheaterforum.com basically came to the inclusion that the lightening is a part of the compression process while the thin line is edge enhancement. I can locate the thread if you would like me to. I first thought that this effect was only on 2.35 films but it is on 1.85 films as well. You just have to adjust the vertical center to see it since there is overscan on a widescreen set. There is no lightening near the borders with those, just the thin black line. I believe the white area near the letterbox on 2.35 films was a compression artifact due to the high amount of storage space it takes up to ease from a black letterbox to picture.


Jay, the 34XBR800 was the first set I saw this on as I had only owned a 27 inch set before it. I know own the PT50LC13 set due to problems with my XBR and I do not notice them anymore. I am sure if I went up and looked for these issues though I would notice them though. I guess I have just gotten used to it and ignore them now. I hope some of that helped!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,501 Posts
Trying UMR's suggestion might not be a bad idea. It's possible that the digital processing/scaling in the TV could be contributing to the visibility of the lines.


I believe they were diminished slightly when I switched to the new bypassed 1080i on the 34XBR800. This should be bypassing both the MID and DRC digital processing/transformation circuits in the TV. The lines are not completely eliminated though. And I believe they are a part of many DVDs.


I wouldn't really recommend switching to the bypassed 1080i just to rectify this problem alone though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
155 Posts
jayfc007

Why don't you take the DVD to the store you purchased your set from and ask them to play it for you on a 34XBR910 on display. You might even consider bringing your own cables/Player. It's not worth agonizing over. If the set is defective return for a new one.
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top