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Don, this Top/Bottom demo was on their site and also YouTube. You can watch it in Anaglyph 3D and it does scan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpErQONz5Ow
The one issue is the eye alignment is considerably off and hurts if you watch it full screen. I hope they get and pay attention to feedback. If they get this right, I'm in, although they are charging a $30 fee to send to U.S ($239+$30). My guess is as they hit the street, the price will come down.

They have an early-bird 2 camera special, though that's a good deal.

Edit: I just reviewed the FAQs at the bottom of their Kickstarter page. It appears they are going to develop an underwater case and add advanced programming features, etc. for a future version after all the first-wave buyers receive their cameras. Oh, and they said the flickering was from bad lightning in the demos--they are going to correct in future demos.

I asked two questions: Will the bad 3D alignment be fixed in the first version, and will first buyers receive compensation to buy the more advanced version later?
I will post when I hear back from them.
Flicker is from the lights. I can pretty much guarantee that whatever future demos they do will be in environments that don't use those kinds of lights, and people will assume they "fixed" the camera.

I wouldn't hold my breath for an underwater housing (no pun intended). 360 video doesn't really work handheld.

The cheapest 360 3D camera I've considered is $3K. Anything less is going to be amateurish. But I've given up on getting something this year. Almost nobody is going to have the capability to watch it in full quality. It's going to be a pain in the butt trying to distribute 4D 3D 360 content online. It'll be a nice timekiller for one's own amusement, and little more.
 

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The fluorescent light flicker is likely caused by their 50 Hz power and our 30 fps video. I've seen this often and don't think it is related to this camera.

I did some online research and there are no demos of 3D 360 videos. You either get 3D top/bottom, 3D SBS or 360 ° sperical but not both.



Bob- try this experiment- Put your 3D TV in Top Bottom mode and then play the video full screen. Click and hold on the timeline in the YT player and you will see a popup of the full wide frame thumbnail in 3D but it is not windowed, rather it will be the curvalinera panorama frame. It will be fuzzy because you are blowing up the tiny thumbnail. Proves the image is aligned but the player is just not compatible with 360 top and bottom video. I don't even think it will work with SBS.

I have no use for this camera for underwater or for 360° UNLESS it can be demonstrated it is 3D.


Bob- have you found any GoPro 3D 360° samples? This one used 32 GP cameras. I have the same problem displaying it on my LG 3D TV. It is TB as well
 

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Discussion Starter #103 (Edited)
Don, the problem with youtube 3D is that it uses the HTML5 browser player and the 360º videos with VR, with compressed SBS or T/B only work with the HTML5 anaglyph player when using a mouse to move the video around. However, the cellphone VR is set up differently with two SBS uncompressed videos that move as the phone is being moved. It's just a different software implementation of HTML5 that works on Android and ios. So, my point is, 360º VR will not work on a 3D TV because the software is not embedded in the TV software to allow movement of the image. I tried this on my passive 3D monitor, and it has the same issue. Anaglyph works fine, though, on my monitor as long as I'm going through the browser and using the HTML5 viewer full screen. The light circle with 4 arrows has to appear in the upper left of the image to indicate that the VR software is activated. I have not tried on my LG, but will do that later today, but I'm pretty sure HTML5 is the issue, though.

That does limit the usefulness of 3D VR if you can only see it on your cellphone in actual full color 3D. It's making me rethink the need for this as you have pointed out.
 

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My 3D passive LG monitor is not set up as a TV. It is set up as a computer monitor so I am using Google Chrome which is compatible with SBS and TB 3D. It works but the geometry is all screwed up.

I didn't think to test the Two eyes 3D sample on my iphone-

Just tested the sample and it can only work as anaglyph. Like you said.

I wonder if the goggles is what is required to view in 3D and VR 360° with good color ( non anaglyph )


Bob, all this is fascinating but not so obvious for the limitations. Looks like we're still beyond the foreseeable future for real 3D 360° videos. I think you and I agree that this is still not where we want it to be and I am convinced throwing money at it with a big complex multicam GoPro system will work either.

I'm happy with my Giroptic 3 camera 2D system with the features it has. I'm hoping to shoot another cruise ship tour with it on the Oasis next week. I may do a walk about with my 3D GoPro rig and the stabilizer rig as well. Planning for one day of snorkeling with the 3 cam GoPro too.

Doing a little research I saw that there is an app that turns the iphone into a 3D still camera and outputs a SBS still image. It was free so I tried it out and it takes a really high quality still. The app can be used to display the stills in a VR viewer with lenses. The concept is similar to my 3D NEX5n

Do any of these head viewers work for TB or are they all SBS? Seems TB would be really difficult but SBS just require the simple holder and two lenses.

BTW- do you ever use the cross eyed method to do a quick test of a 3D SBS? I use it all the time but not for long periods of time as it can become painful.

Interesting how this topic and owning a 360 cam has raised more unanswered questions than answers. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #105
Don, VR phone viewers are very simple in concept. They have a lens for each eye that is simply focused on half the phone placed in slot in front. Some viewers have a focus adjustment and parallax eye adjustment to match your eyes to the width of the image. So they rely a simple SBS images, not compressed SBS like we are used to. There are apps that will show MPO file images in SBS on a phone. Again, the resolution of the phone is the issue and while you can see the 3D, the images are awful pixelated. Yes, I do free-eye 3D checks of SBS. Top/bottom 3D for VR can only be done using HTML5 I think. It looks like 3D VR is going to be left to some phone apps that support it, but not ready for primetime TV viewing except for anaglyph 3D. So that puts 3D VR dead in the water for me now.
 

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Top/bottom 3D for VR can only be done using HTML5 I think.
That was my concern as I was not able to get TB to work with html5 feeding my passive monitor. The only option left is the active Head gear such as Oculus Rift and I have demoed that system a couple years ago but back then the image displays for each eye were highly pixelated and looked pretty bad.

I understand the cardboard and cheap plastic head goggles that hold an iphone use two lenses to aid in focus on the SBS image. I suppose the visual of an iphone is dependent on the screen quality. The newer iphones that plan to have OLED 4K screens might be what is needed, although my 6+ is pretty good quality. I could not see how the cardboard passive goggles could interpret TB 3D.

Anyway, I subscribed to the TwoEyes and asked the question.


I also saw a couple other similar products on the Kickstarter that failed funding.

On another note- I am keeping my eye on GoPro. Since the GP Sessions was such a failure and GoPro 5 isn't setting any sales records, I wonder if GoPro will enter this VR 360 game with a 3D 360 VR camera based on the Sessions electronics. 4 of those in a similar configuration would be very interesting. Of course I'm sure you know Facebook is looking at entering the VR hardware business and bought Oculus Rift. If the reality is that 3D 360 VR is only accessed via headgear, then so be it. Like you I was hoping for doing this in my Home theater screen but I guess it's looking like the tech movement is going a different direction. At least for now.
 
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Bob- after reviewing the 2D image quality on my big screen and comparing to my Giroptic360 image quality, and reviewing my finances I bit the bullet and became #172 for a one camera "backer" order. Knowing that the 3D 360 will be limited to the goggles, I will not be disappointed. There is no way I will ever spring for the GoPro multi camera system. Too expensive and too bulky for what I do.

Confession- I was thinking about getting the Giroptic iOS clip-on but this will be in place of that in my budget.

Thanks again for bringing this offering to my attention.
 

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Discussion Starter #108 (Edited)
Don, I'm still thinking about it. I like the idea that the twin lens for normal 3D does have 4K stabilization--although they are saying the sensor has a square video image??. The lenses might be too wide angle for normal 3D work, but at 4k that might be adjustable in Edius layouter. Well, I guess we won't know until later this year...
Oh, one more thought. If you can take both front and back 3D videos at the same time, you could always edit them into a front scan in 3D and a back scan in 3D to give the illusion of 360º pan for a normal 3D video. Dang it, more expense...:)
 

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The square AR is a requirement for stitching video into a sphere of display. I don't see how one could use the Layouter to crop to 16x9 without some problems with the wrap. The crop for 16x9 has to be done in the player app.

From what I saw of the 3D non sperical demo it looked quite good.

I don't know if the files can be extracted since it is stitched in the camera. The file image will not look normal but all distorted, like a fisheye extreme. Then the Player corrects all that for the pan view and a circle for the circle view (which I have no idea what that is used for) The file with the 4 circles would need to be sliced up in a 2D editor and then restitched for Left and right eye pairs. I don't know of any software that can do that if you can extract the files not stitched.
 

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Discussion Starter #110
Don, maybe I misunderstood how the normal non-spherical 3D works. I relooked at the demos and based on what I see, when not in 4-lens mode, the image is normal two-eyed stereo in 16:9 format, so that should be easy to adjust.

The SBS example for VR cellphone headsets has two SBS square images, not compressed, so that won't work for normal 3D viewing unless the images are detached to left and right eye, then converted to compressed SBS stereo. Perhaps that's another question to ask about whether non-stitched files can be extracted.

I received answers to my 2 questions: 1. Will the 3D images be better aligned in the final version? and 2. Will there be compensation for those who bought version 1 and want to upgrade to version 2 in the future? Here is their response:
"Thank you so much for your questions! We would love yours & your friend's support! Here are the answers to your questions below:
1. We agree that the 3D images are not quite up to our standards as well. We promise to have more sample film up within the week which will show off TwoEyes VR's abilities better. We hope they will alleviate some of your concerns.
2. While nothing is set as of now, backers of version 1 of TwoEyes will definitely be offered a promotional code that offers a benefit should they also support TwoEyes VR version 2. We may also offer a benefit to subscribers on our website!
Thank you again for your support!
The TwoEyes Tech Team"

It appears that version 2 will also be done as a Kickstarter campaign.
 

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Bob- if the work flow is like the Giroptic, the file on the mSD card is a wide AR that has all cameras view but distorted. There are 3 angles of view. The Two eyes has samples on their website that look similar to other 2 view ( 2 camera) systems where the file has circular exposures in the frame 4 stereo all four cameras are represented as 4 circles. That 4 circle is supposed to be stitched to their 360 3D and the 360 2D is where you turn the camera on end and just use the two cameras. In all cases the exposed frame in the camera file is circular, aka 1:1 AR. The description of the process is pretty sketchy, but it seems similar to the Giroptic that the stitching is done when you transfer the file from the camera to your iphone app or to your computer USING their special app. If I take the file from my Giroptic mSD card and transfer the file to my computer without using their transfer software the file is not ready to view but I can use that and edit it in Vegas or Edius. The edited file is also not ready to view because the special meta data must be inserted to the Vegas Pro edited file since Vegas Pro does not recognize the embedded metadata. I get two options here. I can use the special metadata insertion program for YT or Facebook that will activate their player tools or I can put the rendered edited file back on the camera's mSD card and then use their transfer software to move the file back to the computer. In all cases the cameras are stitched to a single file in the camera but to view the distorted file I have to use a special player that views the file through a window that may be 16x9 and in the case of the SBS 3D through goggles on the iphone app.

I know that is pretty complicated explanation of the process, the file image is different depending on whether you have 2 lenses, 4 lenses, or 3 lenses and how the image is placed in the player frame. 3D just complicates the process. The Giroptic 3 camera still uses square exposures for each camera but rather than the top bottom black bars in the Two Eyes, squeezing 3 lenses produces even bigger black bars so Giroptic fills in the dead space with a still graphic that you can customize. This image MUST be 1024 x 1024 pixels for it to stitch into the frame. If you look at my VR uploads at the bottom when you pan down is the image. Giroptic added this feature allowing you to replace their advertising graphic with a software update.

Thanks for your answers. I looked very closely at the samples and saw that there is a mis alignment of the girls feet from left to right eye view showing that either the frames are not in sync or the frame rate at 30fps is just not fast enough for that motion speed. Either way, the sample looked very close in Vertical disparity and I thought that was good. Especially challenging is the image stabilization which I have not gotten to work on any VR stitched files. Again, this would only complicate a 3D file to near impossible. I have a feeling this is a feature that will give them fits in the final version. Giroptic has two choices of IS. Stabilize vertical or Horizontal but not both at the same time. IMO, neither is very effective and that is only for 2D.

One thing is certain, this is a whole new process we have to learn and we are pioneers. Have to relearn many of the rules about shooting with 360 cameras. I would never spend much on this stuff now until the work flow is better understood. Next week I'll be in the Bahamas and when I get back I will order the Walmart Goggles for the SBS iphone viewer. They have them for $19 so that is worth the cost to put my 3D SBS videos on the iphone. The crosseyed is not comfortable.
 
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Bob, here's a good website that will explain the stitching phase of 360 VR imaging. https://www.ptgui.com/ This is what is used to assemble the various cameras in various configurations such as the GoPro setup. These little cameras such as the Giroptic and the Twoeyes do all this in the camera so you end up with the curvalinear looking image file that still needs to be made to view in a special player. I haven't seen the Two Eyes, of course, but the Giroptic has has only one file with all three camera images that is an MP4 for each shoot.
 

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Discussion Starter #113
Don, thanks for the link. Last night, I was able to watch the "normal" 3D example of the young girl dancing on my big screen in the basement directly from youtube. It came though as framepacked, not anaglyph. That said, whenever she lifted her arms, there was a definite disparity in the images between eyes. It could have been because of the lighting, but now I'm beginning to think the flickering is from a shutter scanning issue in the cameras. While there is probably no physical shutter, the sensor scan must be off and not exactly 30fps or cameras are not genlocked properly. I suppose this could be due to a slight lag between the sensor and the data processing taking place. If you get a chance, watch this demo again on your projector. It's the one that is in 16:9 format 3D, no VR. I will be watching for an updated example they are supposed to post in the coming weeks. Whatever the issue is, the 3D is going to be hard to watch where there is movement of the objects in the scene.
 

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We had a great cruise aboard Oasis of the Seas. I shot a walk around the ship with the Giroptic 360 cam and had lots of interest in the format. Many people came up and asked questions about it as they have seen the 360 format on Facebook and You Tube.

When I was in St. Thomas and St. Maarten, I saw a number of camera stores selling the 2 camera 360 cameras so it seems this format is going to take off, thanks to Facebook and You Tube players making viewing easy. I saw some of these lower end low cost 360 cameras have wifi internet connection for easy upload to social media as well of the raw clips. Few people will try to edit until an easier software is released.

Right now all I see is the plugin for adobe after effects for doing crude edits and adding titles. I'm going to continue to edit with Vegas Pro and just do cuts and fades.
 

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Discussion Starter #115
Don, I have used Magix Pro Premium in the past as a quick way to do some 3D editing. I noticed that in the latest release they have full 360º editing including titling. You might want to check it out: http://www.magix.com/us/ . They are the company that bought out Vegas Pro, which is now become Magix Pro X I think.
 

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Good Job, Bob! Thank you for finding that. Plus they have an upgrade offer from my V13 of Power Director. It looks like it will do everything I need and just in time for my next editing project I was planning to begin today. I was wondering how long it would be before these editing companies would offer 360 spherical editing. The demo video sold me. I studied Magix too but it didn't seem to be as robust as Power Director plus I'm familiar with the product.

The one thing with Cyberlink is they have so many variations of the product, but I found the best deal by doing the upgrade through the v13 "upgrade link" plus it streamlined the upgrade process.


Edit- Been editing all afternoon with PD15 and hasn't crashed once. Plays timeline with no problem. Still learning where stuff is but the preview window works with 360 views which is really nice. Some transitions are a little weird but all seem to work. The titler works very well but I am learning the font size has to be smaller than usual when centered or it really expands as you rotate the image and place the title near the image sides. I'm wondering if the title can be locked while rotating the scene??? That would be a nice option.

I haven't rendered an output yet but so far this is doing all I need and more than I had wished for. Overall it is far more stable and fast than the PD13 I was using.
 
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I completed the editing of a 360 video, experimenting with some of the new toys in PD15. The editing and timeline playback worked with no freezing or crashing. But I am not happy with the rendering quality. It is not smooth and the image quality is greatly reduced from the camera original clips. I need to do some more experimenting with the setup. One thing I did notice which is probably responsible for the image quality hit. The camera original is 2048 x 1024 but the closest selection is 1920 x 960 using custom. They do not allow me to select the original image frame size 2048x1024 in the render. There is also a selection of 3840x1920 which would be an upscale. I know Barry has experimented with upscale to 4K from GoPro video and it looked good using Edius but I have never tried it. I am rendering the project again with these settings.

While the quality of the render was really bad, I will say that the PD15 adds the proper meta data for 360 format so I didn't need to manually insert the meta data after the rendering was complete.
 

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Making Progress!

It occurred to me that if I am only viewing 1/3 the width of an image at a time in 360 mode, the video pixel resolution will be rendered to 1.3 the file width in pixels. So, if the render is 1920 wide then the window of viewing is equivalent to 640 pixels. On a full screen HD display I would be stretching the Giroptic360 image by 300%. That's why it looked so pixelated and jaggies. So I rendered at 3840x1920, another option in the custom settings and the PQ was much better but not yet a true 2K HD quality. This pretty much eliminated the pixelated image on the full screen and eliminated the image jumpiness too. The highest Custom setting is 4096x2048 and I am trying that now. I also set the bit rate to 20000kbps. PD15 also has an option to render for optimized You Tube settings and I want to test that too. The render time takes about 3-4 hours for my 35 minute project.

It appears that the PD15 is designed around the newer 2 camera 360VR devices and 4K. My Giroptic360 is a three camera 2K device so I doubt it will ever be rendering to the full 100% quality of the camera. Later this year when I get the Two-Eyes camera in it will probably be more compatible to the PD15 editing.

I would say that my rendering experiments have shown that the PD15 and Giroptic360 can work and the quality now is tolerable.

I also am still not happy with my skills in shooting 360. Attempts to eliminate the cameraman have not been satisfactory and the stitching at the bottom angle of the top of my head looks worse than holding the camera out in front and putting me in the shot. That goes against the tradition of the shooter is not the story, but I suppose I will have to make it part of the story since this is a camera that captures everywhere. Camera wobble is still an issue. I have a bench now that can hold the Giroptic360 on my Beholder 3 axis stabilizer and it works if careful not to tilt the handle too far off balance but that contraption is far more obnoxious than the basic camera on a selfie stick in public places.

Later today, I will upload the better quality render to YT and compare with the existing one that was rendered at the low pixel resolution.
 
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Discussion Starter #120
I was reading on the Internet (so it must be true:D) that you can take a 360º video--scan a scene in a circle with the camera, and then load two copies of it in a 3D editor (maybe Edius) and combine them into stereo but with several frames off to get a left eye/right eye image. This will create a 3D 360º video using basically an advanced version of the 3D cha-cha method used to create a single shot MPO. Haven't tried it, and it seems fraught with issues, but if it works...:cool:
 
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