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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,


I own a 36XBR450 and was quite happy with it until I got OTA HDTV broadcast. Most TV stations are broadcasting in HD formats and they insert the side black bars when doing regular 4:3 programming. Leaving everything the way it is supposed to be, I end up with 29" of viewing area. My quest is to zoom the picture to full screen without losing much of its original details.


Luckily, my receiver, Panasonic TU-DST52, can do that. It can zoom the image to fit a 4:3 display before sending it out. Naturally, I want to keep as much of the original 720p/1080i image as I can so I choose the 1080i output. The TV however, when sensing 1080i signal, it compresses the picture into 16:9 making everyone fat, defeating my original purpose. I am left with 2 choices: watching 29" worth of 1080i signals or full 36" in 480i. Different from 480i and 480p signals, the TV allow16:9 Enhanced mode to be Auto/Manual or On/Off respectively, with 1080i you have no control over it.


Does anyone know any 4:3 TVs out there can do what I want? I think 4:3 programming on HD media will be around for a long time. If I were to buy a new TV, I definitely would not buy any Sony 4:3, or any other 4:3 with the same behavior, for that very reason.
 

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Nope, what you describe is the problem with trying to use a 4:3 digital set for HDTV. STBs assume a true 16:9 widescreen display for HDTV - so you should have got a widescreen set! The Sony 34XBR800 is excellent and Sony is coming out with new models in a few months that are widescreen only and have super-fine-pitch which will make them higher resolution than any of the 4:3 digital sets out there!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Maybe in the future when 16:9 programs are more common in addition to the justification of replacing a rather new, expensive set. Now, I am used to letterboxing but cannot stand side bars or "streched" or "wide" when 4:3 programs are played on a 16:9 display.


Most high-end TVs have a lot of features that many do not use, or use for the sake of it without realizing any differences, yet the one I think important is missing. I wonder why in all these times no designers ever think of allowing HD signals to be displayed on a 4:3 set in either full width (as is) or full height (cutting the 2 sides) so 4:3 materials can be enjoyed long into the future. Is it too much technically to ask? Or is it their poor assumption of HD meaning 16:9?
 

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With the widescreen sets you have many more stretch/crop ioptions. The higher quality sets have nonlinear stretch modes that are excellent or you can do no stretch with just crop and adjust the vertical offset. So many shows are now in 16:9 widescreen (both SD and HD) plus DVD movies that I find 90% of the shows I watch are widescreen now. It will only increase in the future. All of the major networks filmed dramas and comedies are already widescreen HDTV.
 

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Don actually knows what the real answer is but instead chooses to make up lies to support his pathetic quest to make everyone think that there are no other options but a 16:9 native set.


The real answer to your question can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=245339


Just beware of Don. Look at some old posts and you will see that whenever he posts, it's usually a lie.


Enjoy your High Def combo!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I feel better now that I am not alone. The TU-DST52 outputs all formats and the XBR450 decodes all formats via component video and thus I do not need to switch inputs/outputs when watching different programs. Toggling output modes (1080i, hybrid, 480i) and display mode (zoom, letterboxed, normal) is as simple as a press of a button so switching between letterboxed HD and fullscreen SD is not a problem. However, when downconvert, this receiver outputs everything in 480i. It does 480p passthrough but not downconvert to. My problem/dissatisfaction lies in the 480i downconverting part. TV stations broadcast in 1080i/720p, my receiver is outputting 1080i, my TV is displaying 1080i. It would be a perfect world if Sony does not automatically compress that 1080i signal into 16:9 display format. Any Sony engineers outthere please explain this to me. Anyone know of a 4:3 HDTV set that allows you to display 1080i signal in zoom (full height) mode? I for one would swap mine for that any day.


Thank you all for all the insights.
 

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Kadman,


I've been told by the TWC guys that the Gray Bars that are displayed at various times on the sides of screen when viewing HDTV Channels (Channels 1000+) are coming from the local affiliates (CBS, ABC, NBC, etc.). Are they telling me correctly? If so, why would the local affiliates crop their own HDTV broadcasts?
 

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Some affiliates might do this when showing SD content on their HD channel. Unfortunately there isn't enough HD content for the broadcast networks to run HD so the 4:3 content gets compressed in the smaller 16:9 area.
 

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Kadman, a few minutes ago I flipped thru all the TWC HDTV channels, which are in the 1000+ range on the channel guide. There are 8 HDTV channels in my area. Three of the channels had the screen surrounded in black, three more channels had 16:9 screen but gray bars on the side, and only PBS & HBO had a true 16:9 HDTV screen. Does this sound normal for your area?


My idea is that the 3 channels surrounded in black are those the are actually broadcasting SD material at this time of day, and the 3 channels w/the gray bars are broadcasting HDTV but choose to crop the screen. Is this correct?
 

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With a few exceptions, the ones with black or grey side bars are showing their non HD material, simulcasting what's on analog channel, upconverted to 1080i (or 720p for ABC) with the side bars added by the station. Whether they choose black or grey is up to the individual station. When the stations have HD material (like during primetime) the will fill all the way across the screen.
 

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You are looking at the HD channels in the morning. The network HD programs are during primetime 8-11PM. CBS and ABC have all of their primetime dramas and comedies in HD, while NBC has several HD programs. All the rest are merely 4:3 SD programs upconverted by the local station. They want to keep the same 16:9 1080i or 720 HD format at all times (like during commercials which are upconverted also) so they format the 4:3 image within the 16:9 area - of course they assume you have a true 16:9 HDTV, not the fake 4:3 digital sets!
 

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What happens when you have 16.9 television and your watching sd,non

hd material does it depend on the tv or the box or both? do you see

bars all around or can you control this i.e tv/box?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
So, there is at least one 4:3 set that does not compress 1080i signals at will, something that I think all sets should do. When I bought the set, it was (and probably still is) advertised as "36 inch HDTV monitor". The reality is it can only display 31 inch worth of HDTV, I measured it. Should all of us who bought similar products demand a refund for the missing 5 inches (or whatever your ratio is?) Any lawyers out there want to take on this case?
 

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Only a 4:3 set displays a non-HD program with black bars on all 4 sides. A true widescreen HDTV sets may have small black bars on the sides only for upconverted 4:3 programs on some HD channels.
 

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Again, you don't need to view it this way. Use an SD input for SD material and an HD input for HD material. The widescreen doesn't show the top and bottom bars in the situation described because it's already cropped by the physical dimensions of the TV itself. Nothing more to be interpreted from it. Any suggestions by Don that they "assume" you have a 16:9 set and that 4:3 digital sets are somehow fake, is laughable.
 

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So there are bars on 16.9 sd material. I don't care if they are small or big

what I am trying to find out is on a 16.9 set, if I am watching digital cable

(98% non hd) TWNY cable . I will get bars all around on this 16.9, yes no

sometimes? what determines this on non hd sd (what about the reverse

pulldown or are there zoom functions controlled by ??) I understand I

can watch the same show on a different channel and get non hd, hbo

ch 201 and so on on 4.3 tv but if I have 16.9 what happens?


Don you can measure the bars!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
This is my assumption: not all 4:3 programmings are filmed/recorded in SD. In fact, I believe the recording resolution in many programs are even higher than HD. They were done in 4:3 because they were for NTSC broadcasts. Now, the broadcasting media have changed. Originally broadcasters might have to downconvert their recorded signals to NTSC. Now they can bring these programs to our home in their truer forms, 720p or 1080i. So, I think the ability to view 4:3 programs in 720p/1080i is crucial. A program aspect ratio should not constitute its vertical resolution. So, I think all 4:3 TV sets that always squeeze 1080i signals are defective, at least in their design.
 

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What I plan to do in situations like these: use macros on a fancy learning remote to make temporary service mode changes. The idea of lost infrared bits somewhere along the way is giving me the fear, though...
 

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DNINE, I posted the correct information. Too bad Kadman chimed in and tried to confuse you! Unlike him, I am here to help you newbies out - there are many here who have been helped by me and always thank me. Kadman on the other hand only goes around in threads like this to attack others. I have about 10x the number of posts as Kadman so that speaks for itself. Kadman expect folks to buy old 4:3 sets and go thru all the extra jumping thru hoops (like switching between different video inputs with extra cables, etc) instead of those of us who bought a modern 16:9 set and don't have to do any of that! Which is easier/better I ask you?
 
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