[FulciZombieFan]

Hello


I'm thinking of getting a 4:3 TV with a 16x9 compression mode. It would also be nice if it is a digital TV so it can display 480p images.


But this is my main question ...


When watching a 16x9 enchanced DVD will the image look just as good on a 4:3 tube with 16x9 compression mode VS a true 16x9 tube television.


I watch a lot of TV and have alot of television programs on DVD that are in the 4:3 ratio and though I love widescreen I don't think I can handle black on the sides of a 4:3 image on a 16x9 set. It just sounds disturbing. But I'm more than used to black on the top and bottom of a widescreen image. As silly as that sounds that is my reason for wanting a 4:3 set VS a 16:9 set but at the same time I would like to be able to enjoy the increased resolution in 16x9 enchanced DVD's hence my wanting a 4:3 with a 16:9 compression mode.


So first and foremost I am interested in what you guys think of the quality of a 4:3 TV in 16X9 compression mode VS a true 16x9 tube.


And secondly, can anyone recommend any 4:3 TV's that fit my requirements?


Thanks all!


- John "FulciZombieFan" Coleman

 

[Den]

Excellent question, and regrettably the answer is usually No.


The direct view CRT has a fixed number of phosphors etched onto the inside of the screen. When you shrink the raster vertically to a 16:9 area, you are now scanning the same number of video lines as before onto fewer phosphors than before. The result is that the scan lines overlap each other creating a softer image than you'd get on a true 16:9 set.


You might think that a set designer could simply have the CRT guns fire a tighter beam spot in 16:9 mode to avoid the overlap. Doesn't work this way - the beam spot size is a function of the size of the holes in the shadow mask and really can't be played with without blowing purity and convergence out of the water!

 

[Den]

You needn't live with black side bars in a 16:9 set - either the set or your set top box will permit you to stretch 4:3 images to fill the screen though with some distortion of the original geometry. Especially since you are concerned with maximizing displayed resolution of 16:9-enhanced DVDs (as you should be!), most folks on this forum will advise going with a 16:9 set.

 

[Matt_Stevens]

Having looked at all the 4X3 and 16X9 sets out there with high def material, I can say that the difference is only slight between most models. The very best I have ever seen is the Loewe 38". But Sony's 40 inch monster is quite good and when the new version is released this Fall, I may buy one for my living room, so that I will have undistorted 4:3 viewing, with 36 inch widescreen viewing. My Panasonic HDTV will go into a Home Theater Room we're going to build in the new house.

 

[hob]

I have used the full format all the time, don't take it out. I am quite used to the format so much, that I don't even see the stretched faces anymore. My F-38310 W/S was 1 trouble free year old yesterday.



O/T I have 3 DVD players going into the Y-Pr-Pb component input. I have solved my problem on my own for the progressive scan DVD, I am using it to view new discs. When August comes I will be buying 2 new 300 + 1 CX-875 progressive DVDs from Sony. I will have a capacity of 900 DVDs, I have invested over $15,000 in DVD 735 discs + $1200 in DVD hardware. Not bad on $13,200 a year disability income.

 

[catapult]

Sorry guys. It just baffles me how anyone claiming to be concerned about picture quality could even consider using the stretch modes. "Gee, that's a great picture if you like funhouse mirrors." Stretch modes are evil inventions for people who don't know any better and are more interested in impressing their friends with their new widescreen than seeing an accurate image.

 

[Tom Brennan]

Catapult----Amen Brother. Some guys get all bent out of shape about having to watch some piece of modern, bombastic junk in P&S but see no problem watching good movies like The Adventures of Robin Hood or Sunset Blvd with the picture stretched. To the original guy: 16/9 mode on my 36" Wega looks better than not using it, looks sharper, less scan line visibility. It is a good thing.

 

[Speedy]

First off, I have a PALplus 16:9 TV. When a 16:9 PALplus picture is broadcasted you get a full screen true 16:9 image using the full resolution possible (576 lines). This is also the case when watching DVD's. Superb picture, couldn't be better


Now, on "normal" 16:9 movies broadcasted in 4:3 mode you have two black bulks left and right of the picture and two narrow bulks at the top and bottom. Changing picture mode will "explode" the picture and fill the whole screen without any distortion. The negative part about this is, you get a corny picture. Normal 4:3 pictures are shown with black bulks to your left and right.


I only know two TV's that have PALplus. Sony KV-28FD1 and KV-32FD1. When 16:9 is broadcast it sets picture mode automatically


Rule of thumb: If you mainly watch broadcasted movies or DVD's then get a 16:9 TV. You have best usage of the format and resolution that way


Buy the way, after very short time you will not notice the two black bulks on each side of the picture. It's just like the curtains in a cinema

 

[FulciZombieFan]

Hello


This is John ... the guy that started this thread ... just wanted to thank you all so far for the responses BUT please I do not want this to become a battle on aspect ratio.


Maybe it is silly of me to be "disturbed" by having black bars on the SIDES of my 4:3 image on a 16x9 tube BUT I feel that way to an extent which is why I think I would prefer a 4:3 tube with a 16x9 compression mode.


Also, I appreciate the help of those who wanted to point out that a 4:3 image can be stretched to fill a 16x9 tube but really ... I mean REALLY now ... who does that? A child? An infant? I mean if I'm concerned enough about preserving the extra resolution of a 16x9 enhanced DVD am I really gonna want to stretch a 4:3 image over a 16x9 tube? The short answer is NO WAY!


So just to set the record straight and get this thread back on track my main question is this ...


When watching a DVD that has been enhanced for a widescreen 16x9 television what is the comparison between using a 4:3 tube with a 16x9 compression mode VS a true 16x9 tube television.


Secondly, as I am leaning toward a 4:3 tube with a 16x9 compression mode can anyone recommend any such models, either normal NTSC or Digital (assuming I can save enough cash it would be nice to have a 480p display though I may have to settle for simple 480i depending on cost).


Thank you to all who have replied so far and thank you in advance to future replies as they are most welcome.


- John "FulciZombieFan" Coleman

 

[Speedy]

Quote:

Originally posted by FulciZombieFan When watching a DVD that has been enhanced for a widescreen 16x9 television what is the comparison between using a 4:3 tube with a 16x9 compression mode VS a true 16x9 tube television.

16:9 tube = full screen 16:9 picture and full resolution.

4:3 Tube = full screen picture with black bars at top and bottom. You lose resolution.

Quote:

Secondly, as I am leaning toward a 4:3 tube with a 16x9 compression mode can anyone recommend any such models, either normal NTSC or Digital (assuming I can save enough cash it would be nice to have a 480p display though I may have to settle for simple 480i depending on cost).

I need to leave this question for other users. I have PAL here in Europe.

 

[Trooplewis]

Investigate the SOny 40" XBR. I bought one and couldn't be happier. In 16:9 mode you get true 16:9 and absolutely "blacked" out letterbox bars, no loss of resolution in total number of horizontal lines. BUT what is really great is to watch even 16:9 movies in full screen 4:3 (zoomed) mode. Why? Because the parts of the movie that have 99% of the action are in the MIDDLE of the picture. Purists will tell you that you will miss an occasional shot of Obi-Wan in zoomed mode, but you get 25% more picture than in 16:9 mode and with cinemotion it is gorgeous. Just have to get a decent DVD that zooms and doesn't leave icons on the screen in zoomed mode. I use the Toshiba SD4700. Way more 4:3 material out there thn 16:9 anyway!

 

[jerndl]

Quote:

Originally posted by FulciZombieFan When watching a DVD that has been enhanced for a widescreen 16x9 television what is the comparison between using a 4:3 tube with a 16x9 compression mode VS a true 16x9 tube television.

I don't think you will get a satisfactory answer to this question. What you will get (and have already gotten) are people's biased opinions on the merits of 4x3 vs. 16x9. The real question (since you are obviously wanting a 4x3 set) is whether or not the 16x9 compression mode on the TV you want to buy is GOOD ENOUGH to satisfy you. Only you (after some careful viewing) can answer the question. Good luck.


Jay

 

[Speedy]

Quote:

Originally posted by Trooplewis In 16:9 mode you get true 16:9 and absolutely "blacked" out letterbox bars, no loss of resolution in total number of horizontal lines.

My research has shown that picture width is adjusted to fit monitor width and picture height is squeezed to keep the 16:9 format = vertical picture resolution loss.

Quote:

BUT what is really great is to watch even 16:9 movies in full screen 4:3 (zoomed) mode. Why? Because the parts of the movie that have 99% of the action are in the MIDDLE of the picture.

I can support that up to one point. Your eyes view best in 16:9 mode.

Quote:

Purists will tell you that you will miss an occasional shot of Obi-Wan in zoomed mode, but you get 25% more picture than in 16:9 mode and with cinemotion it is gorgeous.

You keep vertical picture resolution by filling the height of the 4:3 monitor with the 16:9 picture height. You lose both sides of the picture which is simply lost.

 

[miimura]

The other thing to consider is how you will use the set in the future. If you ever plan to go digital HD with this set, you should consider how it will handle that eventuality. The problem with the current Sony 4:3 Hi-Scan TVs is that they force the V-Comp on when they get a 1080i signal. My 36XBR has only Auto and ON settings. No OFF setting. This would not normally be a problem except that broadcasters are upconverting 4:3 SD content to 1080i with the black bars on the sides encoded into the picture. This means that you will have a black frame on all 4 sides of your picture on a Sony 4:3 Hi-Scan TV. The only way around this is to feed the set a 480i or 480p signal. Most STBs can then do an appropriate zoom to discard the side bars and fill the screen with a proper aspect picture. Currently, the best workaround is to connect the component and S-Video outputs of the STB to different inputs on the TV and switch between them based on content. This requires a STB that has the S-Video active all the time. There was a thread about this situation with a Samsung T150 STB in the HDTV Hardware Forum.


Obviously, a 16:9 tube will never have this problem.


- Mike

 

[jerndl]

Quote:

Originally posted by miimura This requires a STB that has the S-Video active all the time.

Not really. All it requires is that you switch the mode of the STB (HD or S-video) when you switch inputs on the TV. You can easily have a remote control macro to do this.


Jay

 

[miimura]

Quote:

Originally posted by jerndl Not really. All it requires is that you switch the mode of the STB (HD or S-video) when you switch inputs on the TV. You can easily have a remote control macro to do this.

Which STB works like this?


Ideally, you could get 480p out when you want to watch 4:3 programs. In the case of the Samsung T150, there is a hardware switch on the back of the unit that selects 1080i/480p(/720p?) for the component out. That's why the S-Video is the preferred workaround on that box. If this switch was implemented on the remote, then you wouldn't need to use another input on the TV - you would just tell the STB to change to 480p zoom mode on the component out.


- Mike

 

[jerndl]

Quote:

Originally posted by miimura Which STB works like this?

I have direct experience with the RCA DTC100 and am positive it works like this. I have also read many posts describing the Hughes/Toshiba/Mitsubishi, Sony, Panasonic, and Dish 6000 and thought they had a HD/SD mode that could be selected via the remote. I don't know much about the Samsung box. I guess I assumed that most of the STBs worked that way. I guess there are some that do not.


Jay

 

[Oren]

Just get two TVs.

 

[miimura]

Quote:

Originally posted by jerndl Not really. All it requires is that you switch the mode of the STB (HD or S-video) when you switch inputs on the TV. You can easily have a remote control macro to do this.

Quote:

Originally posted by jerndl I have direct experience with the RCA DTC100 and am positive it works like this. I have also read many posts describing the Hughes/Toshiba/Mitsubishi, Sony, Panasonic, and Dish 6000 and thought they had a HD/SD mode that could be selected via the remote. I don't know much about the Samsung box. I guess I assumed that most of the STBs worked that way. I guess there are some that do not.

I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.


1. STB is connected to TV by Component or RGB AND S-Video all the time.

2. You're watching a HD program and then change channel to a upconverted program and you want to go to SD.

3. You change inputs on the TV to the S-Video one and immediately change the mode (HD/SD) on the STB manually or by macro.


If Step 3 is required instead of simply switching inputs on the TV, I would say this is worse than the Samsung. The Samsung has the S-Video active with 480i all the time. This allows you to record the progam to a VCR/Tivo/whatever regardless of the viewing mode.


To me, the redundant S-Video to the TV is a workaround. It would be far preferable to have just the component or RGB connected to the TV and have the STB be able to switch HD/SD mode from the remote. This would allow you to get 1080i/480p interchangably without doing anything with the TV. Ideally, it would maintain the Zoom mode on the 480p output so that you would immediately get a full screen image on the 4:3 TV with the correct aspect as well.


So, on the DTC100, is the S-Video active all the time? Can it switch between 1080i and 480p on the HD output by one press of the remote control?


Of course, this is all just a STB workaround for the V-Comp problem on the Sony 4:3 Hi-Scan TVs. If they would just have a zoom mode that would zoom this upconverted SD program to full screen while turning off the V-Compression of the 1080i signal we would all be much happier.


- Mike

 

[videoman]

HD monitor out shuts off the S-video out, And you have to punch the button on the front panel to activate/deactivate HD monitor out.