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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi there,


To all of you out there that know these AVRs I have a question. I am considering these two receivers as an upgrade to my current Sony DB930 (about two and a half years old) as I want to have 7.1 in the basement. I have Infinity speakers all round (RS5s at the front, CC3 for the centre and RS3s at the back, I have two new RS3s sitting in a box waiting for the rear effects).


The thing is this, right now the one criticism I have is that sometimes I can hear treble is a little too high and noticeable - too bright? So the need/want for 7.1 and this are my reasons for upgrading.


So the quandary is thus. The Pioneer has the MCCAC, so very desirable. However the Sony has both 5.1 and 7.1 inputs (I have SACD right now, and my next DVD player will probably have DVDA) so this is a great plus to me. I am not concerned about cost as making one move like this, another couple of hundred for happiness can be justified :) The remotes aren't an issue either as my wife (the love of my life) dictates we get a Pronto 3000 (well not dictate that model, just a single remote for the whole HT :) ).


My concern/question is thus: Would the 4ES sound too bright with the Infinity's as my current Sony does, and if so can it be fixed with the EQ? If I were to want to utilise a DVDA player, is an external box possible so that the 45TX can be used? This second point is not a show stopper, I just don’t want to tell my wife I wish to upgrade again in a years time.


I like the look of both receivers, and have read all threads I could find about both (hence the subject being termed as it is). So am not looking to start a flame, well you know what I mean, thread. Just looking for people's opinions on:


1) Either of these receivers with Infinity speakers

2) The importance of MCCAC compared to learning how to manually tweak an EQ (Although I sooooo love the idea of MCCAC)

3) The importance of two multiple channel inputs


Thank you for reading this far ;) and even more thanks for replying.



Cheers, Brett
 

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Prepare to be Rexified.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
LOL - I did try to make the point I have read everything I could find ;) But seriously these are the things that are bugging me about my next purchase, but thanks for the reply ;)


I realise Rex is a proponent of the 4ES and good for him, I am sure a couple of 45TX proponents will chime in to - and that's what I need :)


I have had the opportunity to audition both receivers locally, but not with the speakers I, err, speak of, and if reading AVS has not taught me but one thing, it's all of you have a vast wealth of both knowledge _and_ understanding.


- Brett
 

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One thing about the Pioneer and MCACC. It's only 5 stationary bands with a gap between about 400 and 4000 hz. There have been complaints from others that they don't particularly like the MCACC and end up spending additional time tweaking it themselves to sound right. The EQ on the DA4ES is a parametric shelving EQ with adjustable frequency. Mid band has bandwidth adjustment. And yes, definitely is useful for adjusting for different speakers as I have mentioned in about 20 other threads. :)


It has impressive output with music and HT, and we shouldn't overlook some of its other key features like parametric multi-band EQs which are adjustable independently for each channel with 5 memories, 2 multi-channel inputs, 50mhz HDTV switching capability, video upconversion for s-video, many DSP modes including DTS 96/24 and Cinema Sound, beautiful appearance (& that cool blue light? :) ), solid metal construction 44lb, crossover setting which can be set idependently for each channel, analog direct bypass, excellent S/N ratio and THD specs comparable to receivers costing 3 times as much, 6 digital inputs, 2-room support, LCD lighted remote, and more.


Also see:


Rex Carson Power Output & other DA4ES info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=243746
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=244758
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=244894
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=243124
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=243754
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=237866
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=1
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0&pagenumber=6
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=241913


Crest Factor references:
http://www.qsc.com/support/library/papers/puzzle.pdf
http://www.rane.com/par-c.html
http://www.rane.com/note135.html
http://www.prosoundweb.com/install/s...1/epr_p1.shtml
http://rfdesign.com/ar/radio_crest_factor_analysis/
http://www.prosoundweb.com/install/s...7_1/epr_p2.php
http://www.aes.org/sections/centrali...rown020206.pdf
http://www.shure.com/support/technotes/app-meter.html
http://ubista.ubi.pt/~dfis-wg/midi/aud-dic/par-c.htm
http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~elec301/...echniques.html
http://www.pge.com/002_biz_svc/power.../harmonics.pdf
http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor...erhandling.htm
http://www.sea.siemens.com/step/temp...nitoring:1:3:7
http://www.suttondesigns.com/glossary/crest.shtml


Crest Factor applied:
http://www.airwindows.com/analysis/A...OTM/index.html
http://www.airwindows.com/analysis/A...all/index.html
http://www.airwindows.com/analysis/Albums/
http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Interface.html


EQ related discussions:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...er#post2064056
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ghlight=inputs
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ghlight=inputs
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ight=equalizer


EQ related Articles:
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazin...ringer8024.htm
http://www.rane.com/note115.html
 

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You're welcome, and oh...
Quote:
3) The importance of two multiple channel inputs
Important if you have multiple devices that you need to connect with multi-channel inputs. I wouldn't use an external switchbox.
 

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I have infinity interludes in a 5.1 setup in my family room and a 7.1 setup in my home theatre basement. Last year I upgraded from an older sony to a Marantz 7200 in the family room. I also thought the sony sounded to bright. The marantz was a huge step up.


Just finished my basement and auditioned a bunch of receivers. The finalists were the HK 525, 4es, and 45tx. For a couple of personal and subjective reasons I ruled out the 525. That left the 4es and 45tx.


Afet listening two both receivers extensively I chose the 45tx. I personally think it sounded better. Please note I said personally, and I'm not sure I have the vocabulary to describe what it was that sounded better. Call it musicality or warmth I don't know. When my wife came in to the store (she was shopping next door) she even thought the 45tx sounded better. In all honesty the 4es could have been set up poorly. It reminded me alot of my marantz, ok at low volumes but not so good higher up the dial.


I eventually purchased a 45tx and have had it about a week and a half. I had it for a week before running the MCAAC. I thought it sounded great before but the MCAAC made a noticeable difference. I haven't been able to make it sound anybetter. When making my purchase I came here alot and never heard anybody complain about the MCAAC.


To compensate for only having one set of multi-channel inputs, I bought a universal dvd/SACD player.
 

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all I'm gonna add is that I auditioned the 45TX and 4ES at sound advice when I bought a receiver late last year, and I took home the Sony. I will tell you though I liked the 45TX remote better and MCACC was nice. Both are very nice units, very customizable and should provide you with an enjoyable listening experience. If all else fails do eeny-meeny-miny-mo
 

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I chose the 45TX for the MCACC alone, above the 4ES. Either is a fine choice. I have to admit I was partially swayed by the much better looks of the Elite, the better remote of the Elite, and overall, because that dealer carried speakers I was interested in, and I got a discount based on quantity and financing as well. I will reiterate that I've only read one post where a 45+ model Elite owner wasn't floored by the MCACC adjustments. 1, in a forum where the tiniest flaw is exaggerated to such high importance it isn't even funny. That should say something about the MCACC.


Sorny
 

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Brett, I should have mentioned this earlier, but speaking of the multi-channel inputs and your DVD-A and SACD that you are wanting to use... you can NOT use EQ with those inputs, and there is no bass redirection with those inputs either. HK525 has bass redirection of multi-channel inputs, but no EQ. You can also buy an external bass management unit.
 

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Brett,


I just picked up the 45tx earlier this week, and my wife and I just finished watching a movie on it, and it did a superb job. Granted, it was only About a Boy, but still sounded great. Even my wife said something, who was against HT from the get go. As for music, this thing will motivate your speakers. It's got a cool little feature where if you want to listen to a CD in Stereo mode, you just push this little direct stereo mode button (either remote or front panel), and it really sings on music. I have it hooked up to some NHT Evolution T5's and company. I ran the MCACC the day I got it, and had the sucker calibrated in about 10 minutes, after figuring out how to set the speakers to small. Honestly, I did not audition any of the Sony lines, just the Marantz 7300, Denon 3803, and 45tx. I really liked the Marantz from a pure sound standpoint also, but a few things worry me about that brand overall, and I'll leave it at that. Best of luck.


-Jon
 

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I know it sounds like a P.I.T.A., but why don't you take both receivers home and play with them over a free weekend. There is only so much opinion one can gain from this forum. In the end, you have to be satisfied that you obtained the best product for your needs.


On the situation of multiple multi-channel inputs, I agree that Sony was on the ball with this. However, many good DVD players have SACD and DVD-A. This is a trend that I would expect to see in the future.


Happy hunting!
 

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The 4DES is so inexpensive now, its really hard to justify the extra 300 dollars of the 45TX, They both are HUGE 44 lb receivers with massive transformers and heat sinks, and you can probably make either one sound about how you want it to sound, with their EQs.


I think its a bit presumptious to continue to tout how a measly 3-band Sony equilizer is far superior to the higher resolution 5-band Pioneer. Yes I understand the Sony is adjustable, that may make them roughly equal.


I've read several comparison reviews, and even the Rabid Sony and Rabid Pioneer supporters dont really say one sounds better than the other. They start talking about the feature differences instead of the sound quality.


IMHO its come down to a convienence thing, do I want to spend the extra money for the automatic calibration? I might if I didnt have a problem credit card balance.... but .... I do, so im going for the 4DES :).
 

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It's not the number of bands on the Pioneer that are my complaint, but the frequencies that you can control (or not.) Overall, I still think they are close.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by RexCarson
One thing about the Pioneer and MCACC. It's only 5 stationary bands with a gap between about 400 and 4000 hz. There have been complaints from others that they don't particularly like the MCACC and end up spending additional time tweaking it themselves to sound right. The EQ on the DA4ES is a parametric shelving EQ with adjustable frequency. Mid band has bandwidth adjustment. And yes, definitely is useful for adjusting for different speakers as I have mentioned in about 20 other threads. :)


The Sony equalizing capabilities may indeed be better than the Pioneers, but my problem with that is, I wouldn't really know how to adjust the Sony without a spectrum analyzer. I guess that's why the MCACC might be better in my opinion.
 

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If something sounds bright in your HT it's might be your room that makes it bright. I have this problem and have tried three receivers and all had a bright sound but my current 49TX is the warmest even without MCACC. I'm currently planning to put up some good DIY acoustic panels to treat this. For about $50 I can make four 7.5ftx2.5ft acoustic panels and these should make a huge difference in my room.


Daniel Smith
 

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When I auditioned the 45 and the 4ES this week, the (very knowledgeable) store manager at a high end store mentioned the Pioneer inherently has a brighter sound and he was right. The Sony was warmer. I had expected otherwise based on the "Sony too bright" postings. I'm going back with a custom burned CD of my favorite music. The Sony "seemed" to have more power as it did when I heard it against the Denon and Yamaha last weekend.


bob
 

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Now this is the way a thread is supposed to flow! Keep it up guys!
 

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One thing I would like to throw in. Don't judge two receiver's power based on how loud they are on a volume dial.


Different manufacturer's have different methods of scaling the volume.
 
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