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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I recently bought a Mits 65857 & HD5 and normally watch it in the HD mode on the local digital channels. I've read much on this forum about how different TV's and broadcasts view and display these different resoultions, but how does a layman (me) tell how many lines I am seeing? I can tell 1080 when I see it because it looks awesome, but otherwise, the normal digital shows all look nice. (Except NBA, which I watch in standard) I do like the look of the Fox hour long shows (sorry all). Is there any way to tell, or should I even care?


Also, would the NBA in true HD eliminate or reduce the digital errors that I was seeing this weekend? I dont know the techincal words, but when the camera moves fast, the image turns into progressively biger boxes.


Thanks!


Steve


[This message has been edited by SteveHoltam (edited 04-30-2001).]
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by SteveHoltam:
I've read much on this forum about how different TV's and broadcasts view and display these different resoultions, but how does a layman (me) tell how many lines I am seeing? I can tell 1080 when I see it because it looks awesome, but otherwise, the normal digital shows all look nice.
Good question . . . I've been wondering this too. Well, I know what resolution I am actually *seeing* since my E* model 6000 is set to output 1080i in HD mode and 480i in SD mode. However, I wish there was some way that the receiver could tell me what the input format is before up/down conversion. Right now, the only way to tell seems to be to look at the program guide listings. Check out your HD receiver manual . . . perhaps it has some way of indicating the type of incoming signal. I don't think mine does.


Quote:
Originally posted by SteveHoltam:
Also, would the NBA in true HD eliminate or reduce the digital errors that I was seeing this weekend? I dont know the techincal words, but when the camera moves fast, the image turns into progressively biger boxes.
Another good question . . . when I was watching the NCAA finals in HD, you could see the "blockiness" in fast action pan shots. The MPEG2 compression systems do have a problem keeping up when the motion is fast & furious, so this will probably always be a problem to some degree. However, the encoders should improve in successive generations so things will look better in the future.


HD is basketball is *way* better than SD basketball. After seeing terrestrial HD basketball, SD basketball delivered over highly compressed SD satellite channels is unwatchable.

 

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I'm not sure, but I think any 480p that was upconverted would show up with bars on the sides. The 720p might fill the entire screen (side to side), but be a little more "grainy" than a true 1080i.

On my Sony, the 480i will come out as 480i in 4:3 format because that's the way I have it setup.


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Quote:
Originally posted by dmbatch:
I'm not sure, but I think any 480p that was upconverted would show up with bars on the sides.
Nope . . . 16:9 480p is a legal format so it won't necessarily show up with bars on the side. For example, Fox shows a few programs in widescreen (16:9) 480p format.

Quote:
Originally posted by dmbatch:
The 720p might fill the entire screen (side to side), but be a little more "grainy" than a true 1080i.
720p should always fill up the entire screen (side to side) since it is a 16:9 only format but there may be black bars emdedded in there if they are showing some old 4:3 movie. Careful with your "grainy" statement that might start a stupid flame war with 720p proponents. On my set, I wouldn't notice a difference since it would "upconvert" 720p to 1080i. I wish I could view 720p natively . . . but . . . not many sets can and the popularity of 720p seems to be waning.

 

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Quote:
Originally posted by dagman:
720p should always fill up the entire screen (side to side) since it is a 16:9 only format but there may be black bars emdedded in there if they are showing some old 4:3 movie. Careful with your "grainy" statement that might start a stupid flame war with 720p proponents. On my set, I wouldn't notice a difference since it would "upconvert" 720p to 1080i. I wish I could view 720p natively . . . but . . . not many sets can and the popularity of 720p seems to be waning.
dagman,


I thought that HDTV is only 1080i or 480p.... what uses 720p exactly? Is it worth looking for a set that has this format? You say that its popularity is waning... does this mean that stations were once using this format but aren't as much anymore?


I'm new to HDTV, so please excuse my questions. Thanks!


Lord British
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord British:
I thought that HDTV is only 1080i or 480p.... what uses 720p exactly? Is it worth looking for a set that has this format? You say that its popularity is waning... does this mean that stations were once using this format but aren't as much anymore?
There are actually 18 (or 36 depending on how you count) different legal formats for ATSC video. Do you know what the i & p in 1080i & 480p mean? If not then read the 1st side bar here:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...e-10-2000.html


720p is a 720 line progressive HDTV format. 480p is not considered an HDTV format. Only the 6 legal 720p & 1080i/p formats are considered HDTV.


It seems that only ABC & panasonic are pushing 720p right now. It is a good format, but right now most HDTV is broadcast in 1080i.

 

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How to tell the difference?

Here are some pointers.


Most OTA DTV stations that do some HDTV or SDTV, (like CBS, NBC, ABC affiliates) upconvert their standard programing to HDTV because it's easier to deal with when switching in & out of the native HD programing from the network.


Right now all native HDTV is in one of two formats, 720p or 1080i. All native HDTV is 16:9 aspect ratio. ABC is the only one with 720p. CBS, NBC and PBS all use 1080i. FOX does not do any native HDTV, only 480p EDTV, some of which is 16:9 widescreen.


So, your local DTV stations are probably predictable in terms what format you will see.


Most ABC stations upconvert standard programing to 720p, and pass thru the native 720p HDTV untouched. ABC does quite a few movies and recently added NYPD Blue in HD.


Most NBC stations upconvert standard programing to 1080i, and pass thru the native 1080i, the only NBC HDTV programing seen lately is The Tonight Show.


PBS stations are all a little different. Most will pass thru the plentiful native 1080i HD programing from the national PBS network, examples are specific episodes of Nova, The American Experience & Masterpiece Theater. Some PBS stations run the PBS 1080i demo loop from the national HDTV feed all the time. Other PBS stations multicast in 480i, 480p or upconvert standard programing to 1080i.


As mentioned above, FOX does no HDTV. They do have a number of EDTV 480p 16:9 programs. Here is a recent thread discussing FOX DTV in depth. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/002453.html

Some FOX stations upconvert the 480p to 720p, which is still not native HDTV, but it looks pretty good.


CBS is the clear HDTV leader in network broadcasting, with almost all (except two shows) entertainment programing in 1080i HDTV. Most CBS DTV stations upconvert their standard programing to 1080i.


Some equipment will actually tell you what DTV format it is receiving, the RCA DTC-100 will tell you if the programing is 16:9 or 4:3, Sony HDTV Monitors will tell you if it's 1080i or 480p.


The best way to know for sure, is to call your local DTV station and talk to the engineering department. Let them know we are watching, it can only help the transition to HDTV.


HBO & Showtime HDTV either show native 1080i or upconverted standard to 1080i. Showtime has quite a few programs that are upconverted and 16:9 with DD audio, which look & sound real good too, but still not as good as native HDTV. Anything on HBO that is 16:9 is native HDTV.



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Quote:
Originally posted by dagman:
... It seems that only ABC & panasonic are pushing 720p right now. It is a good format, but right now most HDTV is broadcast in 1080i.

dagman, thanks for the info. So I assume the best bet would be to buy a TV that did 720p correct? I mean, if I buy what that doesn't, and 720p becomes more popular in the future, I'll never be able to view it properly, correct? I assume that most TVs would upconvert 720p to 1080i? Is a lot of quality lost when this happens?


Which TVs do 720p? Panasonics I presume?


Thanks!


Lord British
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord British:
dagman, thanks for the info. So I assume the best bet would be to buy a TV that did 720p correct? I mean, if I buy what that doesn't, and 720p becomes more popular in the future, I'll never be able to view it properly, correct? I assume that most TVs would upconvert 720p to 1080i? Is a lot of quality lost when this happens?

Which TVs do 720p? Panasonics I presume?
It is better to view 720p broadcast material on a native 720p display. However, it looks pretty darn good on my Toshiba 56H80. I just watched Armageddon and that was (I believe) broadcast as 720p by KGO, my local ABC affliate. My E* model 6000 upconverts it to 1080i and then outputs it as 1080i into the Tosh. However, I'm sure it would look better on a display that displays native 720p. I think panasonic is the only company that makes an RPTV that does 720p.

 

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Quote:
dagman, thanks for the info. So I assume the best bet would be to buy a TV that did 720p correct? I mean, if I buy what that doesn't, and 720p becomes more popular in the future, I'll never be able to view it properly, correct? I assume that most TVs would upconvert 720p to 1080i? Is a lot of quality lost when this happens?
Virtually all set top boxes will decode all 18 ATSC formats, including 720p. They then convert it to one of 2, 3, or 4 formats for output to your TV. The most common STB output formats are 480i, 480p, and 1080i. A few STBs can also output 720p, but this is useful only of your TV can input 720p.


So even if you buy a TV that cannot directly handle 720p input, you will still be able to view 720p programming, as the STB will do the conversion for you. The only reason for buying a TV with 720p capability is if you want to view 720p programming with no STB conversion. But bear in mind that to do this, you will also need an STB with 720p output capability.


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James


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Quote:
Originally posted by Alkettory:
... The only reason for buying a TV with 720p capability is if you want to view 720p programming with no STB conversion. But bear in mind that to do this, you will also need an STB with 720p output capability.

Any idea which STBs output 720p? What about the Dish 6000 series?


Isn't one limited to very few STBs, namely the ones that your provider offers (DirecTV, Dish, or cable company?)


Thanks!


Lord British
 

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Few HDTV's have the ability to display 720p. There are a number of reasons for this, primarily because progressive scan video is more expensive to display on an HDTV monitor and there is very little 720p available to view.


Some of the older Panasonic HDTV monitors will do 720p and some multiscan computer monitors will do 720p, as will most front/rear separate HDTV projectors. There are probably a few other one piece HDTV's, too.


The key to 720p right now, is that your set-top-box will convert 720p to the other HD format, 1080i. Yes, you will see interlace artifacts, but since the current state of the art for your average consumer HDTV monitor is not that great, the actual viewable difference between native 720p and 720p converted to 1080i is just not that much, at least for now. The exception is if you have a graphics grade projector, which will easily let you see the difference. 720p progressive scan will not have interlace artifacts (stair-step diagonal lines), but 1080i interlaced is higher resolution (sharper appearing). Keep in mind these comments are generalizations only.


Most stb's output 1080i as their HDTV format. Exceptions are the Dish 6000 will let you select which HD format you want, as will the older Panasonic TU-DST50/51 (but no DBS capability) and the newer Panasonic TU-HDS20.


I don't think any Mitsu HDTV's do 720p, can someone else confirm this?


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The Panasonic TU-HDS20 will output 720p. It also has a "native" mode, which passes whatever the input stream is to the output device. I use Hybrid mode (1080i/720 > 1080i, 480i/p > 480p).


Using hybird mode and the format button on my 65905, I can tell if something is 480p or 1080i/720p.


If I run in native mode, I can tell the difference between 720p and 1080i because my tv will sync 1080i, but not 720p.


--Rick
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Kevin mentions a 540p for the Mits. This is the first I've heard about 540p. What would use that? Also does the Iscan Pro show you visually what signal it is receiving? Thanks to all, espically Ken (very nice overview)and Dagman for his link regarding progressive and interlaced.


Now me get smart :)


Steve


Someday HD all day!!
 

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I have E* 6000 receiver and Panasonic HDTV, both do 720p and 1080i. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/cool.gif So I can watch NYPD blue (ABC 720p) and CSI (CBS 1080i) on both 720p or 1080i. They are all really good on whatever format. But NYPD blue looks better on 720p and SCI looks better on 1080i. I guess that means any convert will degrade picture quality, at least for E* 6000. But 6000 receiver does not have native mode. Output format change on 6000 is really a pain on the ass. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Lord British:
Any idea which STBs output 720p? What about the Dish 6000 series?

Isn't one limited to very few STBs, namely the ones that your provider offers (DirecTV, Dish, or cable company?)
There is only 1 Dish Network receiver available, the model 6000 (there was a model 5000 but it is discontinued). Luckily, it is pretty darn good. 2 composite outputs, S-video output, RGB output, and component output. And, yes, it can output 720p.


There are several DirecTV HDTV receivers but I don't know much about them.


I really wish these receivers said what the input signal is . . . not all local broadcasters do what their associated networks would like. For example, some ABC affliates broadcast HDTV in 1080i even though ABC's official format is 720p. Some Fox affliates upconvert 480p to 720p. I wish I could tell exactly what my locals are doing.

 
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